What would be the ranged equivalent of a Juggernaut?

Brascus·Oct 10, 2015·3 votes·1,297 views

If Juggernauts mainly trade out mobility for damage/health what would a ranged Juggernaut trade mobility for?

I just want to talk about it, no ones getting buried alive I promise, it won't be like last time I swear ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) I'm trying to figure out, from a design philosophy perspective, what ranged champions trade out for their kit/stats especially in the case of a totally immobile ranged champ. I don't play ranged a lot so explain it to me like I'm bronze.

https://cdn.championcounter.com/images/champions/heimerdinger.png?v=1443681050000

37 Comments

Cowgirl EdOct 10, 20157 votes

Vladimir and Swain are perfect examples

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

So from this it seems:

scales well with health
self healing
situational soft cc (slows)
damage stacking
decent sustain

Their kiting is pretty mediocre, but it's offset by self healing? So you could build tanky with few ap items to try and outlast? So you expect to get hit a few times but you'll get a few pot shots here and there? Any other champs like this? Comparatively they do sound like Juggernauts with a bit of range.

Titanium70Oct 10, 20153 votes

Yeah especially Swain:

While being kited around easily he creats this death zone around him noone wants to stay in. That´s a juggernaut for me. :)

MisterHealYoGirlOct 10, 20157 votes

Ryze Vladimir Chogath Swain Galio

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20151 votes

ranged equivalent: Chogath Galio

MisterHealYoGirlOct 10, 20152 votes

They have melee autos, yeah, but they fight from range. Galio's ult is an exception.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20151 votes

Gallio is prettymuch the only melee that doesn't make use of his AAs. Cho has a massive aoe-on hit with E, if he doesn't go into AA distance, he looses alot damage from his kit+his ult also is melee distance.

MisterHealYoGirlOct 10, 20151 votes

I play mostly ARAM, so my understanding of Cho'Gath is somewhat flawed. xD

LuggOct 10, 20156 votes

Urgot is the correct answer.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

Please do elaborate :D

LuggOct 10, 20154 votes

He does damage and is tanky.

AMYS GRAVEOct 10, 20151 votes

Urgot is always the answer.

TendajiXOct 10, 20151 votes

Do people play him ap?............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I hope not

RalanrOct 10, 20155 votes

Whatever Urgot is supposed to be.

Teridax68Oct 10, 20154 votes

As mentioned below, the most direct translation of melee to ranged juggernauts would be Vladimir and Swain , who both have no mobility and very short overall combat range in exchange for sustain and greater durability.

Beyond that, though, we have a ton of immobile mages who often get to do some stuff better than immobile champions, or even do stuff that mobile mages can't, but overall there isn't this single theme that separates immobile mages from mobile ones, and so we might end up with multiple sub-classes rather than just one. Lux and Xerath compensate for their immobility with massive ability range, champions like Anivia , Morgana and Orianna have amazing utility, , Viktor , Velkoz and Syndra can all kill enemies in a single ability rotation even when not overly fed, etc. Perhaps the upcoming pass could solidify immobile mages by setting clear boundaries for what they'd get to do that mobile champions can't, though it would likely not bunch them all into one group as the Juggernaut update did.

BrascusOct 10, 20152 votes

Thanks for all the detail here this put things into perspective quite a bit. So what I'm thinking here is when range trade out mobility they usually get one of these things:

Lots of range
Lots of utility
Lots of durability <---- Juggermage here though
Lots of damage

The interesting thing about the lots of damage champs is that although they don't really have too much means to kite, their damage skillshots are so threatening that players usually try to not get hit and play around them so in some cases they become pseudo kiting tools. So it seems that range champs are a little more complex while tuning them as they're all balanced around mobility and effective range, they sacrifice a mixture of these things to get their kit rather than the other way round.

SasogwaOct 10, 20153 votes

Damage.

A lot of it.

Veigar

DrCyanideOct 10, 20153 votes

Xerath Annie Syndra

Yeah, the burst mage is the Juggernaut of the ranged realm.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the burst mage is the Juggernaut of the ranged realm.

So they're tanky compared to other ranged champs with high damage but have short range?

DrCyanideOct 10, 20152 votes

Not tanky so much as they have more CC than their mobile counterparts.

It's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but it's the closest there is.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

Would you say the less mobile a ranged champ is the more cc they'd generally have?

DrCyanideOct 10, 20152 votes

Yes, I think so.

Ashe and Varus have a lot of CC in their kits, but no mobility.

Jinx, Draven, and Twitch have some movement speed boost, and less mobility.

Lucian and Ezreal have excellent dashes, but absolutely no CC.

I think this trend is a part of why people dislike Kalista being in the game, since she has mobility but also has a slow and a knock.

YOU BEEN WARNEDOct 10, 20153 votes

Builders of these items item 3151 item 3116 item 3027

Slamurai JackOct 10, 20153 votes

The ranged juggernaughts are Vladimir Swain . Low Mobility and CC combined with high suvivability and dps.

RenascentOct 10, 20152 votes

Ryze Build item 3040 item 3027 and the rest tanky; Tradeoff for no dashes/blinks is extremely spammable abilities that allow you to build tank while also dealing tons of damage and single-target lockdown.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

So you're saying short range champs with high sustain need few damage items to deal decent damage so they can build tanky items? Going full damage isn't viable because they'd be too squishy otherwise? What sort of utility do they usually have: hard/soft cc?

IonianOct 10, 20151 votes

If you build full damage on Ryze you will die trying to reach an opponent with your spells because almost every mage spell (like Ahri's Q) outranges his entire kit. But if you do get in range of them, well you can 1v5.

BrascusOct 10, 20151 votes

And there aren't any comps that could cover those problems and let Ryze go ham, or would that just be too cumbersome with mobile assassins?

IonianOct 10, 20151 votes

How can your teammates cover your problem of getting outranged? Unless they give you permanent shields and speed buffs it won't work at all.

CynikaOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying short range champs with high sustain need few damage items to deal decent damage so they can build tanky items? Going full damage isn't viable because they'd be too squishy otherwise? What sort of utility do they usually have: hard/soft cc?

Wouldn't necessarily say few damage items, but more dmg/defense hybrid items. For example with vlad, you can build rylai's/zhonya's/abyssal to get damage and survivability.

In the case of vlad though the only utility "oh crap" button is his w, but that has a very long CD, chunks 20% current HP, and only provides a weak slow that doesn't really help you run away. It's more for dodging abilities or dropping turret aggro for me.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20152 votes

Where are alot off different imobile ranged champion typs: What you might call juggermage: Vladimir Swain , solid tankiness, high sustain, great damage but lowish range and low mobillity and rather low utillity, guess Urgot is kinda a ad-version off that type Burstmage Viktor , huge burst and good overall damage, lowish/unreliable utillity, low mobillity, rather squishy. Controll mage Orianna Anivia , good damage, high zone controll, good utillity, squishy and immobile Poke Xerath Varus , very powerfull poke, good burst, decent overall damage, high range, squishy and immobile Haypercarry Cassiopeia KogMaw , insane dps potential, a bit zonecontroll/utillity, rather squishy and immobile.

All these different champion typs trade mobillity for a different stregth. beeing ranged allows more diversity without needing mobillity.

LankPantsOct 10, 20151 votes

If Juggernauts mainly trade out mobility for damage/health what would a ranged Juggernaut trade mobility for?

The way you phrased that question, any utility carry fits. Their damage is generally comparable to their more mobile counterparts but they get CC/Shields/Other buffs as well.

BrascusOct 11, 20151 votes

As someone who doesn't play a whole lot of ranged in any game I've come to a better understanding now that ranged are balanced around their kiting capability (or lack thereof) and how much distance they get to work with. I was looking at it from a melee angle which of course was wrong.

It seems obvious now but, you don't know what you don't know.

DarkwindOct 10, 20151 votes

Lulu KogMaw

DecritOct 10, 20151 votes

As somebody said stuff like Vlad or Swain look fine...

but i think they are missing a thing: the equivalent of a juggernaut that is ranged is a mage! Stuff like Xerath that has hard time moving but can dish out damage is rather common. Obviously, compared to the juggernauts counterparts, they can' t be that tanky since they are already ranged ( and it would not make much sense otherwise ) and since they are not tanky need compensation like hard cc unless few cases like Vladimir that are the nearest thing that there is to a juggernaut mage followed by Ryze and Swain, but i have hard time consider them classes but rather singularities.