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High damage can't suit LoL

Brascus··149 votes·8,003 views

If you put high damage in a game's design it raises the stakes and pacing substantially but if it is too exhaustive (or even impossible) to play around it is rightfully considered unfair, also considered fake difficulty.

A game that is critically known to do this correctly is Dark Souls http://i.imgur.com/WBCNyG6.gif

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Some champions in league have the tools to do this in a non binary fashion that requires mastery to accomplish. It's a problem mostly because only some have access to these tools, where you could say these specific champions play in a different paradigm altogether, on another level so to speak.

It's easy to assume that Graves Lucian Ahri dashing around is fun because it's cool, but many forget you get a lot more agency over skills shots coming at you with more dynamic options: https://media.giphy.com/media/GD7FC44e9eaac/giphy.gif

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There are many mechanics to achieve damage avoidance in systems design:

  • Dodge (invulnerability frames)
  • Dash
  • Fixed Direction Moving Block
  • Incremental Pivot Block
  • Temporary 360 Block
  • Riposte (precise block and retaliation at the point of attack)
  • Dynamic Short Range Teleport
  • Marked Long Range Teleport

Just in case you thought I was suggesting Darius starts dashing around. I'm not. That's silly. You're silly.

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A lot of champions already have skills that could translate into such a paradigm of systems design that readily accommodates high damage output, yet at the same time many don't, and worse yet are the many sources of damage that cannot be anticipated or even avoided at all without impeccable positioning or some sort of invulnerability.

If all champions were updated to correctly fit into such a paradigm would it even be League of Legends anymore? No it wouldn't.

Let me say that again.

Trying to fit LoL into this paradigm would not work, it is not what LoL is. LoL is somewhere between a damage simulator and an RTS.

Don't do it Rito. Leave Dark Souls at home. I love it too, just don't.

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So what am I trying to say here?

LOWER THE GOD DAMNED DAMAGE!! The alternative of keeping it around is not feasible without drastic changes to make it fair.

tl;dr lower the damage

150 Comments

Maximum Morde16 votes

Dark souls is hugely guilty of fake difficulty. I'm not saying it's a bad game, cause it's not, but don't try and use it as a model for correct difficulty scaling lol.

AbrahamBaconham55 votes

In what way is Dark Souls guilty of fake difficulty? Those games provide you with everything you need to know, provided you take longer than a few seconds to look for it.

Maximum Morde16 votes

Because sometimes unless you've looked up something in advance you just die out of nowhere. Once you know about it, it's not a problem. But random dying isn't exactly the perfect image of fairness. Not saying everything HAS to be fair, sometimes unfairness can be fun.

AbrahamBaconham43 votes

But Dark Souls doesn't just randomly kill you. Every trap, every enemy is clearly visible to the player, you just have to use that extra bit of caution and attentiveness to spot them. The game gives you a 3rd person camera, you're supposed to use it to your advantage.

Maximum Morde10 votes

Untrue, sometimes the only indicator you get is the little image of someone else getting ghost pwned. Sometimes you don't even get that.

AbrahamBaconham29 votes

The bloodstains are an observational resource, just like your eyes and your common sense. They are meant to make you aware of any dangers that lie ahead; if you're not cautious, if you charge in recklessly, you could end up just like that guy. If you still fail to spot the danger, if you still charge ahead, then that's on you, not the game.

I maintain that every obstacle in these games can be easily overcome if you spend a good couple seconds looking around each new room you enter.

Brascus28 votes

You treat Dark Souls with respect or you die.

Solo Josh3 votes

[deleted]

Adriqnohee6 votes

The bed of chaos is one of the only moments DK 1 was even remotely unfair, you take the worst possible boss in the hole franchise and bases the game around her, and of course the game will look bad, other than dying to bugs and the bed of chaos, there are almost no deaths that are unfair, they are always caused by your lack of attention and or lack of skill, anyone who accuses Dark Souls of having fake difficulty, has no idea of the real meaning behind the concept.

DoktorKaiser4 votes

Yeah thats why Ornstein and Smough fight was the best 3 hours of gaming I had in what like 20 years of doing it. And thats a small part of this amazing game, which the sequels never really matched again in any way.

TheSingularity2 votes

Yeah, but if one is amazing the sequels will never stand a chance. Think of it like a drug addict feeding an addiction. The following high's will never ever be as good as the first and hence why people overdose. But if they overdosed dark souls, they'd probably break the game.

Bloodborne apparently came close to a dark souls 2.0 according to others and after completing my first play through legit 4 days ago, I agree 100%

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

I don't know if you ever played bloodborne, but the showdown between the pale blood hunter and the first hunter (not telling you who exactly cause spoilers if you haven't played it) was much more exciting and in my opinion as thrilling as O&S

Could just be the faster paced combat and the reliance on dodging instead of blocking, damn shame that game is still exclusive to PS4

DoktorKaiser1 votes

While I agree that fight with Gehrman was epic af, I kind of didnt like to be forced into fast paced combat of Bloodborne, not that it isnt an amazing game, just that I liked to have the option to play slowly and study my opponets in DS1 :D

Faceroll Tactics2 votes

That's fair.

I like the more fast paced style and dodging mechanics in bloodborne better than the slow and steady style of dark souls, but to each their own.

MadManApocalypse1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEIQtjft,comment-id=000100000000000300000000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-25T00:22:56.226+0000)

That's fair.

I like the more fast paced style and dodging mechanics in bloodborne better than the slow and steady style of dark souls, but to each their own.

Same here I like fast paced but bloodbourne was fast paced and had high damage which is what I didn't like (Maybe because I started with a whip and the time I played before raging sucked)

A good example are fighting games where you do a small percentage but if you pull it off right you can then make it a big number.

Knalxz3 votes

Morde is right though. Half the reason Dark Souls 2 was hated along with specific zones in DS1 and 3 is because they're just hollow. (ba dum tss) Some zones don't feel fair and typically has you just flying thought bullshit that you can't predict.

There are alot of places where it's just pay attention but many more thanks to DS2 where there is literally nothing you can do but die because how could you know? Example, the people who say that beat Dark Souls 1 without dying are liars because there's a certain part in the game where you have to die to progress.

You still lose all of your powers and have to reattain them with the threat of losing that progress so the death still costs as much as any other.

There are many more moments with DS2 like the fucking Gargoyle's just spawning because "LoL Fuck you" or in the DLC where there is literally no way to prepare for the enemies hiding in the snow. It's a random encounter of a powerful enemy that will always only flank you. The only thing that redeemed DS2 was Scholar but it still didn't do much.

TheSingularity2 votes

But basing "dark souls is full of fake difficulty" around 25% of the entire franchise worth of soulsborne is just silly. Scholar fixed almost every area with a few exceptions that still sucked (lava lizards, gangbang in lost bastille), my fave changes were to Iron Keep.

Supreme Senpai6918 votes

The point of being a cursed undead solider with the ability to see bloodstains of other cursed undead soldiers across time and space and witness how they died is so that you don't die. Walk into a room and see a bloodstain? Look at it. Never turn a corner without your shield. You see a chest? Hit it. It's probably too good to be true. Watch your stepping for traps on the floor. If you die, you have another chance to regain your lost souls. So long as you're learning and not dying two times in a row, you're good.

It can be frustrating, but you're SUPPOSED to die. Literally a trophy called "Welcome to Dark Souls" or something that you get upon your first death. I didn't downvote ya, people b salty, but just explaining what the game is. Definitely not fake difficulty.

Maximum Morde18 votes

Downvotes don't bother me. That just means some people disagree with me, and that's fine. We are all free to have our own opinions.

Supreme Senpai697 votes

We are; that's why I don't downvote for a differing opinion :p

Downvotes are usually meant to push spam or offensive material to the bottom, or cause it to be hidden so others don't have to see it. Grinds my gears to see people downvoting cuz they happen to not agree with ya. But if you don't mind it, more power to you lol.

Maximum Morde9 votes

Well, the only thing that is annoying is if you accumulate enough to be hidden. That's a pretty stupid system. It's like social justice warrior thought policing censorship and really is a bad design. If it isn't bad enough to be moderated and deleted, it shouldn't be hidden. But the downvotes themselves are whatever.

Anidan5 votes

Not sure why you brought up social justice warriors when thought policing has been used in many situations in various media that lacked social justice warriors behind the motivation, but more power to you, I guess. Have SJWs become such a heinous thing that we import them into narratives in which they don't even fit just to show how terrible they are?

I agree, though, that things shouldn't be hidden simply because some don't want to see it.

Maximum Morde2 votes

Because that's the in thing right now. Or maybe I should be calling them Progressive Snowflakes or something, I'm not really up to date but I'm still trying to be hip wit dat kids u know.

Anidan4 votes

But it's not SJW that are known for thought policing, it's totalitarians who seek to keep everyone oppressed under their regime and prevent free expression and transfer of thought. You have safe spaces and whatever, but the only time I ever see anyone actually advocate anything like thought policing it tends to be more militant people who would enforce their will in a more severe manner than SJWs tend to be associated with.

SJWs tend to be associated with labels and their breadth, along with going out of their way to not offend, but not outright thought policing. That's some 1984 level stuff right there. Worth remembering that "Thought Police" has insanely harsh connotation, something I wouldn't attribute to any but the most crazy of those SJWs, who cross the line from SJW to something else entirely wearing the mask of an SJW.

I am not an SJW, but people painting them as some sort of bogeyman that will take away your freedom of speech if given merely an inch is kind of worrisome and is starting to make those people look no better than the SJWs themselves.

SlashStriker15 votes

High damage can't suit LoL

Yes it can but there must be miningful way to do that. This can be achieve by showing it in a way that you will deal lots of damage

Abilities that Requires Stacks of something to do lots damage like Darius's Stacks and Ult Ability requires channeling for it to deal more damage Ability that scales with enemies missing health

  • You are low on health therefor you most probably going to die

https://media.giphy.com/media/GD7FC44e9eaac/giphy.gif In case of DMC4 nero can get Exceed charges to release more powerful abilities Nero's Counter Grab does not deal lots of damage cause it negates the damage he is suppose to take

Brascus3 votes

{quoted}

Yes it can but there must be miningful way to do that. This can be achieve by showing it in a way that you will deal lots of damage

For instance Darius needs 5 stacks on his passive to deal lots of damage else his damage is minimum Ability requires channeling for it to deal more damage Ability that scales with enemies missing health

  • You are low on health therefor you most probably going to die

https://media.giphy.com/media/GD7FC44e9eaac/giphy.gif In case of DMC4 nero can get Exceed charges to release more powerful abilities Nero's Counter Grab does not deal lots of damage cause it negates the damage he is suppose to take

Darius is quite a balanced champ though imo, he's not really the poster child of high damage exacerbation because of the way his ramp damage is designed, he'd probably be more cancer if fights lasted longer though.

azrolator1 votes

Darius can do some damage over time. You can damage him back, you can lifesteal, dash, flash, stun and run. Some champs just jump on you from a mile away and delete you before you can even act, or just lob an ult worth nearly your entire health or more from out of range. LoL just has too much big damage in too short of time. Some champs have high health builds enough to survive it. Other champs have invulnerabilities/hourglass to help. Some champs are stuck where there is no way to survive a dive or big nuke, certain to die under tower at full health while the enemy walks away victorious a second later. If they build enough defense/hps to survive it, they give up their own damage.

Colgate Gator9 votes

Eyyyy For Dark Souls mention.

Also, yeah, the damage is kind of absurd all around the board.

Vesemir8 votes

Lower the damage so assassins can be more useless right? Every bad thing happened because of adcs. And the way they abused every item (sterakk, armor pen etc..) They are the main reason why the game is on its current state. And they pull the victim card.

3TWarrior2 votes

not really...one of the major reasons the game is in such a state is because riot decided to change EVERY tower instead of just the nexus towers

people were complaining about long games because once you got to the nexus towers, the opposing team had enough time to drag out the game

Brisecou6 votes

I see many people agreeing with this post, yet I don't...

So I guess I will get downvoted to hell but I really want to give my opinion about damages (which was given on another post), even though it is very unpopular on the NA Boards.

You can tell who is an old school player and who isn't by how much they think damage is too high right now.

Champions have never been as tanky as they are now. Look at your hp bar at level 6 when you are an ADC and only have a Doran's Blade. If you played in Season 1-2, you know you're tanky as hell.

Remember playing Tryndamere on old Twisted Treeline ? Poor level 1 Annie walks in the botlane bush, you hit her 3 times, 2 of your hits are critical strikes, you get 400 gold.

Where did she go ?

That's what she gets for having such a ridiculous HP bar.

Back in my days, having 600-700 hp at level 1 meant you used all your runes in flat HP, had bought a 475 PO Ruby Crystal and were playing Garen or Dr. Mundo. You didn't see an Ezreal do the same with a Dolan's Blade.

Adriqnohee7 votes

I've been playing this game since season 1, and while its true the defensives stats received increases over the years, it doesn't even compare to the growth that the offensive stats received, mages have gone from getting 500-600 AP at full build, to having 800-1000 AP plus extra passives and actives on their items, ADCs now have 3 zeal items instead of one, two of which also gives them extra damage with their passives, they are now capable of actually achieving 100% critical chance, which essentially doubles their DPS compared to what they could achieve before, bruisers have twice as many damaging items as they had before, and even Tanks receive damage increase with items like item 3025, item 3751 and changes to their scaling, so while you're indeed correct that defensive stats where increased over the years, you're also ignoring the much higher increase to offensive stats.

Velzard of Koz4 votes

mages have gone from getting 500-600 AP at full build, to having 800-1000 AP plus extra passives and actives on their items

It's strange that only times I see a Mage with 600 AP at full build, they usually build Glass Burtser and are squishy as hell. The only times I saw mage have 1k AP was in Nightblue's games, where he steamrolls peope much below his division and sometimes goes as far as selling boots just to pass 1k AP limit in combination with elixir, rabadon and before the change blue buff.

And how did Mages even reach this point when several items has recently even been nerfed from 100 Ap status to sub100AP status? Now that Ryalais and Zhonyas doesn't give 100AP, it's somehow easier to get 1k AP than before?

YumaS2Astral3 votes

Mages actually have less AP than before. However, mages now have access to more cooldown reduction items (there was a time that getting 40% CDR forced you to use dedicated runes for that, but now you can easily achieve it just with items). They also have a lot more masteries, keystones, and items that can increase their damage. That and the fact that magic resistance has been nerfed, means that even though mages have less AP they still do a lot of damage, if not more damage than before.

Zenthon Prime5 votes

Most mages are still utter garbage against tanks and bruisers, though. Ever seen a Xerath try to kill a tank jungler? Ever seen Syndra try to 100-0 a Poppy? It doesn't work. Mages just melt squishies harder now.

PB4UAME1 votes

It's almost like you are forgetting the base stat equalization patch or something. . .

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Or all the percentage max health, true damage and armor pen mechanics that have been added to kits over the years.

Brascus2 votes

{quoted}

I see many people agreeing with this post, yet I don't...

So I guess I will get downvoted to hell but I really want to give my opinion about damages (which was given on another post), even though it is very unpopular on the NA Boards.

So do we not make observations because the game used to be much worse? Should we have not invented cars because horses were ok?

azrolator1 votes

I've been playing for several seasons and the damage creep is really awful right now. The people I know who play this game say the same thing. Half the games or more are just bursters diving nonstop in an arms race to the top. If they win the race with 20/15 20 minutes in, they might be strong enough to solo enemy team and win the game, but its going to suck for everyone else with the loser with 15 kills goes wandering around as well. If they lose then you don't have a shot. If they don't play the arms race then they will likely just get bursted down by the guy who does. The damage creep has been going on so long, everything is balanced around it. Really I hate it but can't imagine how Riot could fix it now. Eventually if you aren't playing champs that 100-0 in 2 seconds flat, you won't be able to play the game anymore.

PolarTroop5 votes

Dark Souls is a Co-op versus AI game. Player versus computer, bosses are supposed to have the upper hand to create a challenge. Reasons why people love the game because is it not an easy game to finish. League is a real time MOBA, player versus player. Each player has access to the same amount of tools in the game, "Even Playing Field". Your argument skewed by the fact that there are distinct differences between Dark Souls and LoL.

VasilisGreen3 votes

When did you start playing the game? Were you around in the dark ages of DFG Ahri, DFG Leblanc and DFG Annie?

Not xPeke1 votes

yeah THEY had high damage, all the other champions, especially tanks, didn't have the damage/burst they possess now.

The line between DPS and Burst is so thin at the moment it's barely recognisable anymore.

Hell, even ADCs "burst" thanks to being able to get 70 or even 100% crit chance easily.

VasilisGreen1 votes

Assassins and high dps fighters had always been able to delete non tank people. Tryndamere being a prime example of this since he's been around longer than most Heavy AD fighters. The problem is not the high damage across the board. The problem is the high damage that Tank items and tanks have now. The problem is that you can build semi tank Zed, Tanksuo and Tankanything and still oneshot people. That's the problem, nothing else.

Not xPeke1 votes

it's not just tank items, but you're right. It's also the increase in damage across the board for free through masteries. Go through each pre-seasons patch notes. EVERY pre-season there are new masteries introduced and it's basically "more damage here" or "more damage there". Hell, even when they completely changed the mastery trees and brought in keystones, they basically added a 4th spell. For example Thunderlord.

VasilisGreen1 votes

The problem is that, with the addition of more and more tank stats and items, they needed to add more damage to the rest of the roster. The problem is that, with adding so much damage to everyone and not just the damage dealers, the balance gets fucked sideways... The meme ADC in 2k17 came to be because ADCs are deleted by everyone and not just the ones that are supposed to delete them. ADCs are the primary targets of Assassins and Assassins are meant to take out the weakest targets. Now, if you have a Garen/Darius/VI Or whatever tank/bruiser oneshoting the enemy ADC, what's the reason for assassins to even exist? The problem is not just the damage, but the abundance of damage to everyone. And along with point and click CC and extra gap closing abilities, the whole game feels stupidly overloaded

Not xPeke1 votes

I agree, that is kinda what I was saying as well. Sure, you explained the reasoning as to why it is the way it is, and I 100% agree with it.

That's the issue though, damage has been increased across the boards because of <reasons>, and now tanks and bruisers possess damage they shouldn't have, let alone require. It's just sad really. It defies logic how a tanky champion is able to deal as much damage to a squishy target while retaining their tankiness and survivability. A defensive champion or build should NOT have any offensive power.

Riot introduced a made up sub-class, juggernauts to "balance" this out, or to make up an excuse as to why things are the way they are. However every tank, tanky bruiser, etc, can easily play the role of a juggernaut even though they're not classified as such. It's a joke that this has been going on for so long and Riot isn't called out on it. And even if they are, nothing is done about it.

VasilisGreen1 votes

This shit is the whole reason why Tanksuo, Tank Fizz and Tankko were allowed to even exist. The item changes along with the keystones made everything do damage. Fervor, DFT, TLD, Grasp. 4 of the keystones are designed to do extra damage out of nowhere. Flat pen was almost doubled last season and now it's more than double what we used to have while LW became trash tier. What this means is that Squishies suffer from literally EVERYONE while tanks don't give a shit about who they are hitting, they will either delete them or outsustain them because if they are against another tank, the beefier fatass will win and if they are against an AD Assassin/AD Dps they don't care because they're not really hurt by them anyway without LW. With LW being so trashy, tanks are running rampant with nothing but HP True damage to stop them. If there's one thing i love about Fiora, it's her passive, Fuck those tanks, Fiora doesn't care about how much defensive stats you have, you will die.

Thing is, i miss season 5. When yasuo was still yasuo and Zed was fun to play and actualy had a late game...

Not xPeke1 votes

I agree with you man :C Sad times indeed, and I don't think they will improve any time soon unless drastic changes are introduced.

VasilisGreen1 votes

There's only one way for this to change. Call them out on it just like we did with DQ! Riot is not stupid, they will hear us eventualy.

Not xPeke1 votes

That's true, I can't disagree with you, but this particular issue has been evolving at least since season 5, more or less. I truly just think this is the way they want the game to be played.

Unlike DQ, this whole situation cannot be fixed that easily. It would require them to completely reshape the game and interaction between tanky builds/champions and damage. It's actually a lot of work. I just don't see it happening.

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