Spear of Shojin's damage reduction is not a good mechanic.

Khristophoros··6 votes·3,092 views

Flat damage reduction isn't a good idea because in a lot of situations there are a lot more "hits" happening than you realize. In particular if a champion specializes on on-hits, with the way rageblade builds work, you have several things hitting on the same attack. Spear of Shojin reduces each one separately.

So for example, I was playing Trundle and having trouble in lane against a Jax. He rushed Rageblade and won a 1v2 against me and my jungler. Then I finished my Spear of Shojin and easily killed him 1v1, it wasn't even close. His damage was gutted by that passive. I mean, both his ult and W are reduced by it, while the underlying attack is also reduced. The Rageblade on-hit is reduced (twice I think because it's split physical and magic damage).

Another good example is if you are playing vs a DoT champion, yeah sure I know it's reduced by 70% against them, but these champs depend on Liandry's, and woops, that's separate from their abilities. So if Brand's passive is ticking for 2% and Liandry's is ticking for 2% and you have, say, 2000 hp that's 80 dps combined. If Spear of Shojin is giving you 30 DR (this is a lowball, I've easily reached 50 without hitting full build) then that's 9 DR. But it's 9 for each effect, so 18. So you take 62 in this example. That's ~23% less damage. If you also have Adaptive Helm, Brand may as well pack it up.

You have other edge cases like Syndra's ult which is 5 separate hits, so you get 5x the value of the Spear of Shojin passive.

I haven't tested Corki but I wouldn't be surprised if his autoattacks are double reduced too.

Basically, with the way damage works in this game, I don't think it's possible to balance this passive properly. There will always be edge cases where it performs abnormally well because of multihit abilities and onhits.

10 Comments

TwinkiePro1 votes

I see what you're getting at. I enjoy spear on fighters, namely because it allows them to do their job much more easily.

My suggestion would be to count it as individual attacks and spells. A liandry should count as one ability alone, ticking down the 50 add DR and then excess being passed on. onhits will count as one attack, splitting the DR among all sources. Of course, nerf the DR itself, as a 1st item rush it gives almost 25 DR.

The main things its good against is all those, but not crit champs.

Khristophoros2 votes

I think those ideas are good in theory but there are tech limitations. That's the problem.

Khristophoros1 votes

Another thing to consider: This mechanic basically counters partial true dmg conversion. You'd think if 20% of your damage is converted to true damage it helps you against a guy using Spear of Shojin. But in most cases, not really. If the other 80% of your damage is equal to or greater than the flat DR, then your true damage conversion did nothing vs the Spear's DR.

I mean that might not be bad necessarily but I think it's strange.

5050BS1 votes

Its crazy vs MasterYi Udyr

Khristophoros1 votes

Just bought it as Zed vs a team that had Kat, Heimer, Udyr. It was pretty dumb.

Sasogwa1 votes

Tbh I love the idea behind it, but I think there needs to be some work so that it doesn't get broken in specific scenarios/ on specific champions

Teridax681 votes

List of issues I take with Spear of Shojin, off the top of my head:

  • Flat damage reduction has always been an extremely difficult stat to balance, and even something as low as 14 flat reduction on Fizz has been enough to make him a bruiser in the past. 10 flat damage reduction is enough for Amumu to be a deceptively tanky champion as well, so right off the bat, this new item's passive seems way off the mark.
  • As mentioned in the OP, there is so much variance to damage that having an item that provides a flat reduction to every tick of damage sounds like a recipe for disaster. DoT champions are going to suffer especially from this (imagine having to play against this as Singed), while other DPS classes will at least have some counter to the effect via true damage conversion: Shojin may negate the remaining unconverted damage, but at least will be able to do nothing against the true damage, so there is still some amount of arms racing going on.
  • This item looks geared much more towards assassins than towards fighters. Unless the intent here is for fighters to fully commit to AD and still be tanky, fighters are still going to be stacking health, which means they'll have less flat reduction than someone who goes full AD, i.e. assassins. Implementing some melee-only restriction may stop marksmen from abusing this effect, but considering how assassins are melee, that restriction isn't going to stop them, and the attractive combination of AD and CDR means we may have to deal with assassins that will not only be able to ignore a lot more armor, what with the marksman item changes, but who will also become significantly more durable.
  • There is already very little clarity to how much damage gets reduced at any time with resists, percent reduction, penetraction, resist reduction, and true damage conversion, and adding more flat damage reduction to the mix is going to muddy the waters even further. There are far too many different effects in the game right now that achieve the same purpose, and if nothing else, I fail to see why Shojin's damage reduction doesn't operate on a percentage, rather than some flat value. The fact that this flat reduction can be stacked with percent reduction from resists or Phantom Dancer means there's going to be a lot of potential for abuse from squishies, as we've already seen not that long ago with just percentage reduction.
remakoro1 votes

Teemo time to pack my shit i guess. Or going full ad. Which most likely wont work too good.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

From what I saw on the PBE forum, it only applies once per given attack/ability, and doesn't separately reduce Liandry's/true damage/on hits/etc

Khristophoros1 votes

Oh that's good. I guess I gotta do a formal test and figure that shit out.

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