I prefer single champion updates like Rek'Sai/Shyvana/etc…

Malicious Metal · 2017-05-16T10:06:02.712Z

It just feels like the designer isn't limited by some deadline and actually only works on the champion because he has a solid idea where to take their kit. Most of these somewhat random reworks turned out to give the champions more agency over their own power and nudge them back into the spotlight without outright breaking them or giving them some weird gimmick that completely changes how they're played. And frankly, I feel Riot should really take a step back and take a good look on their rework. VGU's are usually well received and turn out to be pretty great balance wise while also having mechanics that can be tweaked without making the entire champion irrelevant Single-champ reworks usually make the champion smoother to play and solidify their niche while giving them new toys that may make players pick them up again Class reworks are sadly hit or miss, with misses being colossal mistakes in the eyes of the community (I personally like all the tank reworks, but that's not relevant) and at least one of them ends up a gimpy mess. Personally, I'd prefer it if Riot would only change items in systemic updates (mostly preseason) and focus their attention to full-blown VGU's and only rework champion if they got a pretty solid idea how to approach them and not be pressured into just grouping them into one class and just changing them for the sake of change. Just my two cents on the matter though, I actually liked the Shyvana and Aatrox updates

Variks the LoyalMay 18, 20172 votes

Are there any specific champions you're looking at for these smaller, more focused updates? Ones that aren't slated for a VGU, I assume.

Oh, and is this the team that did the recent Rammus update?

patmax17May 18, 20173 votes

IIRC Azir is on the radar for the second half of the year :)

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20173 votes

Yep totally. We've got a list of champions that we want to tackle for smaller updates, then it comes down to time, priority, and potential. Like Patmax17 correctly points out, Azir is one that comes to mind. His visual fidelity is really high already, so to do a VGU on him would make it way harder for us to make something that looks objectively better when you hold them side by side. As a result we're only going to be focusing on how we can balance out some of the power on his kit so that when he's strong and played optimally you can still have counterplay which just isn't true on live in today's world.

Also yes this is the team that did the Rammus update, and shyvanna, Alistar, Heimerdinger, Kindred, Reksai etc :)

Lord DesertMay 18, 20172 votes

I just had an idea: what if you explicit ask for rework ideas, while you are in the scouting phase, from boards or reddit? So you dont have to search for specific threads and the ideas come to you. Additionally to your own ideas of course.... It would be awesome if some ideas, some parts come from the people!

Also how many people are usually in a team? 4-5 or more? thx for your time and sorry for the hijack :P

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20173 votes

We do that in a way that isn't as explicit, the primary reason being that going to the boards and reddit only gives us a snapshot into the thoughts of NA/EU primarily. We do global surveys to players that ask questions about fun, frustration, excitement, thematic and a whole load of other areas for all of our champions relative to eachother. This gives us a good snapshot of how the world views our current champion roster, and allows us to then make changes which can hit and excite as many players as possible.

Boards/Reddit are our primary avenues for interacting with players since it's primarily English and most devs who work explicitly on League the game (not the client, matchmaking etc), are based in NA and speak mainly English. I would be worried if we allowed that availability to bias the projects we take on, since the moment we start doing that, we lose sight of what a player in China or Turkey may want (as examples). That's actually one of the main reasons why things like our patch notes don't always make sense when you read them at face value. We'll get questions of "wtf why are you nerfing Karthus he's fine!", when in reality he's a 58% WR champion in China and Oceania - this is purely illustrative, not necessarily a specific problem we tried to solve. Does this kind of make sense? Sorry it got so wordy!

The Live Gameplay (balance) team is around 12 with some flex over time. No need to apologize for the hijacking, they're good questions!

patmax17May 18, 20179 votes

Cool! Just to be clear, will these kind of updates replace class updates, or will both still happen? I think there are a few classes who still need work in terms of diversification (e.g. divers and skirmishers) Also, will the team responsible for class updates be moved to live gameplay, or will the champup team now have three teams to work on VGUs?

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20176 votes

For now I will say most likely. Tanks was the last class where they seemed to be enough room for opportunity to do multiple at once to go along with the itemization pass. Fighters/Divers is the other one people have been pointing out as desirable for updates, and is currently the first class we're going to go about piecemeal until we feel we've hit the highest offenders/highest potential candidates.

That isn't to say that we won't do some form of class update in the future (we're not planning on it), but say June of next year we've found support characters to be incredibly unsatisfying - the kits themselves not the role, then we'd potentially look at it as a larger update to the class. I can say that that is not the plan, and we're going forward with the one at a time when they're ready mindset for now, but things can always change in the future.

Valor BotMay 18, 20172 votes

This is so exciting to hear. I think giving each champion the individual attention they deserve is going to be far more beneficial in the long term than slotting multiple of them in for an update at once. Excited to see more of these reworks in the future for champions who might need them but aren't necessarily at the top of the priority list for a VGU. Though I do wonder if this means we'll be getting class roster update-level reworks one by one (like Sej and Mao), or just more small-scale mini reworks a la Shyvana and Rek'Sai.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20173 votes

I think we actually got a lot of benefits from combining multiple champions into the roster projects, but it did come somewhat at the expense of consistency. In any given roster update there were projects we could look to as great successes, but then others where we wish we could have done more. This should help us get more consistency which I'm really excited about!

In terms of scope of the changes, it's likely going to be context based which is a bit of a loosey goosey answer, but is honest. Champions that we feel have really high potential that are currently somewhat let downs will likely be more on the Sej/Mao level. On the other hand champions where we just need to move power around on their kits or where we want to give a champion an ability to get excited about can be closer to the Shyv/Rek'sai level.

World EnderMay 18, 20171 votes

What about Aatrox? Is he still a candidate for an update since his small changes? Or is the team happy with how he landed?

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20174 votes

We're taking a more measured swing for him for a future release. The last update we gave him was intended to make him a real champion in League, but now we want to help him live up to his edgy deathlord badass potential. No promises around ship date but we're hoping to land him at some point in the latter half of this year.

LuminierMay 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Asyrite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zmcOcENd,comment-id=002a0002000000020000,timestamp=2017-05-18T17:24:21.087+0000)

We're taking a more measured swing for him for a future release. The last update we gave him was intended to make him a real champion in League, but now we want to help him live up to his edgy deathlord badass potential. No promises around ship date but we're hoping to land him at some point in the latter half of this year.

Can you guys please please PLEASE keep his identity as a strong duelist? Revamp his entire kit, that's fine, but please keep his drain-duelist fantasy. I say this as an Aatrox main who loves his unique dueling power. Other champions out-duel with damage and burst (like Jax, Yasuo, Yi), Aatrox out-sustains in duels. As long as he can out-sustain enough in fights, he can win. I find this very unique and worth keeping around. I feel like no other champion truly offers this.

LankPantsMay 18, 20176 votes

Will you be going back over the old class reworks that are looking a lot like failures and either continuing to work on them or just reverting them?

The big two that stick out to me as a player of the champions are Zyra and Sejuani, both of whom got far too little attention and came out worse than before the rework. Then of course there's champs like Mord/Malz/Graves/Skarner who were just terrible failures.

It's time to start fixing these garbage reworks up. Still it's good to hear that class reworks will be stopped, almost nothing good has came from them.

AhristocatsMay 18, 201710 votes

who exactly decided what is a failure?

you need to stop pretending a champion update is a failure just because of this vocal minority that is the board

LankPantsMay 18, 20175 votes

Maybe the consensus of every player I've seen who's actually played Sejuani, especially that of mains who played before the rework?

I've asked everyone who I've seen play Sejuani why they are playing her and I've got two answers, either "The rework sucks" or "She's broken". So why are people playing her? Either they're old mains like I am who are too stubborn to move on or they're abusing a broken champ.

Does this sound like a success to you?

AhristocatsMay 18, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the consensus of every player I've seen who's actually played Sejuani

have you seen all sejuani players? They cried about how they liked old sejuani? feelsbad man, but you're just a collateral damage of riot's work new sejuani offers way more healthier mechanic for the game

{quoted}

I've asked everyone who I've seen play Sejuani why they are playing her and I've got two answers, either "The rework suck" or "She's broken". So why are people playing her?

that's a great way to know the answer 2 weeks after the rework considering that numbers can be changed to balance a champion

{quoted}

Either they're old mains like I am who are too stubborn to move on or they're abusing a broken champ.

Does this sound like a success to you?

i don't really care about her mains, hell i don't care about the mains that you talked to when i'm not even sure you say the truth no mains about a champion ever got satisfied about a rework, list me a single champion whose mains liked the rework of his champion

darius old mains complained about delays and attack speed making darius clunky while all his power was into noxian might and as an old darius main i also prefered old darius fun wise, BUT IT WAS BROKEN FFS

old darius mains left, and new darius mains appeared that's how it happened with Sion that's how it will be with sejuani

either you try to understand how new sejuani works or you get into a new champion

and i'm tired of your bullshit arguments that are "she has 2 spells" when her 5 spells are great, and "she can't work with ranged champions" when she can stack her E herself and W applies 2 stacks so i'm not going to argue AGAIN about sejuani

LankPantsMay 18, 201711 votes

i don't really care about her mains

And that's why your opinion isn't even worth the time it took for me to read it.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 18, 20172 votes

Tbf why can't the mains of old Sion, Poppy, Yorick etc. Use this argument when wanting their champ reverted?

They are for the most part healthier now than they were before, but many old mains now don't touch them becuase they feel their champ was taken.

Now if this is just a result of the entire VGU process then I retract my statements, as I don't play Sej so have no real views on her good or bad.

But why is Sejuani different? Why is Zyra different?

warpenguin555May 18, 20172 votes

What about the champions that the class updates butchered. As a Malzahar main I would like some kind of change to make him feel closer to the back old Malzahar

RiotRiot MapleNectarMay 18, 20173 votes

Coming soon to a PBE near you! In actuality though there's changes going out tomorrow unless we have deploy/integration issues.

I prefer single champion updates like Rek'Sai/Shyvana/etc. to class updates

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