A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)

Malicious Metal··279 votes·9,110 views

The Mage Update is underway and beside the six major reworks we’re getting tweaks and changes for a lot of the other mages. Some are really interesting, thematically fulfilling and exciting like Annie’s Tibber frenzy.

And then there’s Viktor. I get that Viktor does need some changes, seeing that he’s the lowest win rate Mid laner for some time now but these suggested changes do something a rework should NEVER do. Making a champion less satisfying and CLUNKY to play. Yes, the proposed changes Ricklessabandon pushed onto the PBE do little to amend the problems Viktor is currently having and completely destroys his most satisfying and most iconic ability, his Bond-Villain Death ray.

I get that Riot doesn’t like how much damage Vik can lay out in such a short period of time but making him less satisfying and less smooth to play is definitely NOT the way to go.

I might not play Viktor as much as Mordekaiser, and hell, I don’t play ANY champion as much as Morde, but there are certain champions that I find extremely enjoyable to play and our dear Machine Herald’s one of them. His entire kit has perfect synergy in itself and you feel great when you chain your spells, weave them and land those layers absolutely on point.

Personally I think Viktor doesn’t need ANY functionality changes but rather some number shifts, something Ricklessabandon tried to do with the changes being shifting power to Viktor’s chaos storm AoE pulses rather than its impact damage.

But instead of slapping a horrendous 2 second interval on his R and a full 1.25 second aftershock to his E he could have simply lowered his R’s impact damage and increase the persisting cloud’s damage/0.5 second.

  • An annoyed Metal enthusiast

140 Comments

Over Innsmouth60 votes

I guess you could say he pushed these changes forward with RecklessAbandon.

In all serious though, these changes look super clunky and awful. From someone who looks at how smooth they've finally made Vlad after his rework, I have no idea why they'd decide to make Viktor suffer for it.

Spizzle90004 votes

Sorry to bother you, but I've seen you discuss Vladimir a decent amount, so I was wondering what you think of the Vlad rework. I like the changes to his abilities, but do you feel like they're forcing Vlad down a more tanky path with only ~2 AP items or something, or is that just my complete inability to tell how to build a champion based upon their abilities?

Over Innsmouth15 votes

By all means, don't hesitate to ask! Ooh boy. I do love me some Vlad.

Wall of text inc, I'll address each thing you said with at least a paragraph.

First things first, I adore the rework. These are almost the exact types of changes I wanted; particularly making E interesting and updating R a bit whilst keeping P, Q, and W intact. The new E looks absolutely amazing; both from an aesthetic view and a gameplay view - since it now provides something that Vlad's enemies has always lacked; being in range whilst having counterplay, since you can hide being minions/tanks/filthy Fizz players now. What I liked about the ult was the damage amp (since I believe damage amps should be a Noxian thematic the way %health true damage seems to be a Demacian thematic), but it was boring to use and didnt really enforce decision making since the answer to "how should I use ult" is always "just use it". Now - with the heal-on-pop - you're incentivized to ult as many people as possible for maximum healing.

It's all just super swell. It helps that E looks fucking awesome when you use it, even on non-BL/SS skins.

Regarding the changes to P, Q, and W, I think they're ok. I've always personally liked building tank-Vlad (DMP/SV/Liandrys) over full AP Vlad, since the point of Vlad isnt to burst your foes faces off (Veigar ) but to outsustain them the way a juggernaut like Darius does, by spamming low-cd heals. Passive does promote health over raw AP now, which I'll talk about more in detail below. The Q changes I feel are a necessary nerfing, especially with that third Q. One major thing jumped out at me when I first thought about it; Jhin . If Vlad players are smart, they'll treat the Crimson Rush (god what a good name) the way Jhin players treat their fourth shots. Zoning/Harass tools against their enemy laner. The power Crimson Rush offers is worth the loss in standard Transfusion in my mind entirely worth it. The only W change is that you can detonate/cast Tides of Blood whilst in pool, at the cost of solidifying you early - and this is one of my favourite changes, hands down. It adds a sense of dynamic ability to Vlad's kit, rather than Live Vlad who just uses spells as they come off cooldown. "Do I use E for damage but lose pool, or stay pooled?" Furthermore, it adds an previously unknown level of outplay to Vlad's kit. Now you can properly destroy some low-health fool who doesnt respect the threat that is the red puddle of death.

Now, onto the passive changes and tankier builds. Yes, I do feel they're shifting him towards a tankier build than he currently employs (due to passive ratio changes and 10% health scaling on Tides of Blood), though not to the extent that you'd only get two AP items. I think absolute core are item 3116 for the stats and slows, item 3089 for the scaling interaction with Crimson Pact, and item 3065 for the CDR, healing, MR and HP. Every Vlad worth their salt will build these three items, IMO. The three stats Vlad misses out on from these items that he needs is Mpen, Armour, and CDR. Since his Q and E CD's are ever so slightly higher at the cost of the abilities themselves being worth more bang, I think maximizing full CDR is less important now - though you still want to get it where you can. Zhonyas can offer armour, but with the way ADC's are right now you'd want the armour and health from item 3143 for the anti-crit or item 3742 for being speedy, over the armour, AP and CDR that item 3157 provides. Then you need boots (I'd opt for item 3158 , but item 3111 item 3047 item 3009 item 3020 are all fine choices). Then for your Mpen choice you have item 3151 which grants additional health but less Mpen, or item 3135 , which offers no health but stronger Mpen. Abysall is also a choice against AP heavy teams, especially since it provides CDR now.

I saw an image from the PBE that had a Vlad with the following items: item 3143 item 3158 item 3065 item 3089 item 3116 item 3285 . With this build fully charged E's were putting out roughly 1000 magic damage per cast, due to the health scaling and the AP scaling of the ability.

I'm imagining I'd follow a similar build path, but swap out Ludens and Randuins for Void Staff and Deadmans Plate respectively in an ideal scenario.

On Zhonyas specifically, the only part of it that Vlad really wants IMO is the CDR. The unique passive was nerfed and provides a lesser version of his W, the AP part was nerfed which means it has less synergy with his passive, and there are better armour items. In my view, what you potentially lose from taking Hourglass is not worth the item slot that could've gone to an AR/HP item.

On Hextech Rocket Belt (or whatever it's call now), the raw stats look appealing (10% CDR, 300 Health, 80 AP) and the dash is nice, but IMO the item isnt worth missing out on what I've detailed above. Vlad is a truer juggermage than he has been before, and one of the defining traits of the Juggernauts is supposed to be "un-1v1able" to the majority of Champions that arent MasterYi . As Vladimir, you have no business running away with with the dash, you stand and sustain and laugh as your health remains neutral and theirs goes down. When they run, beyond "uncatchables" like Yi, Udyr, Kassadin, or LeBitch, no one should be escaping you between your E slow, your Crimson Rush haste and your Rylai's slows, ditto for running away. Ever tried to chase an Ezreal who keeps proccing IBG? It's like that with Vlad's low CD's and Rylai's. Tl;Dr - Rocket Belt is an item for those who need the dash to engage and burst, or to escape. Vlad doesnt care for either of those as much as he cares for what other items can offer.

Key Points

  • CDR is no longer the be-all end-all stat on Vlad; Health, AP and anything that makes you tankier/maximizes your passive is core.
  • Your scalings are tankier, build tankier. Think of him as not dissimilar from an AP-scaling Darius.
  • Standard Q is weaker, treat Crimson Rush like Jhin's 4th auto.
  • I'm proposing 3 AP items (Rylai's, Rabs, and Mpen) 2 defensive items (AR, Spirit Visage) and boots for the build.

If there's anything else you want to ask me about or if you're unsure about anything above, don't hesitate to ask!

Spizzle90001 votes

Thank you kindly! Have you ever thought about making like a Mobafire build or something because I imagine other Vlad players will want to get an idea on how to play him.

Honestly, while I do think I'll miss being able to deal insane amounts of damage really fast, I do think that this will fit him so much better thematically as a blood mage. I've always thought of him as a brutal, immovable force that will just hit you like a tank and tear your lifeblood from your very veins, all while taking every single hit.

The Blood Lord Vladimir E animation is absolutely gorgeous and I do think I'll be hopping on the Vlad hype train from your description! Thanks again for your detailed explanation!

Over Innsmouth2 votes

'Tis my pleasure!

I'm just too lazy to make a mobafire build, and it'd also require constant patch-to-patch updating, which I am also too lazy for. I'm more than happy to answer any questions anyone has about Vlad though.

Btw, from what I've seen he's lost those fucking post-spell delays from Q, E and R. No more being self-silenced for a second after R. Looks smoother than Yasuo gameplay.

Friendly Ram2 votes

wow that was pretty in depth. thank you for the explanations

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Since Vlad doesn't utilize AAs as much as traditional tanks, what would you think of replacing Deadman's with Sunfire?

SH Azykan5 votes

That's the whole point of deadmans on Vlad is you don't auto. Basically gives you perma ghost once you buy it

WoonStruck5 votes

As long as he still deals damage, I don't care what his build path is. Honestly, being able to go tankier is positive overall. It means he's less likely to get blown up before being in range to do anything. He still does good damage with E when building tanky, even if its not as much as before unfortunately.

That said, the healing with the new rework seems extremely weak. You heal less than pre-rework Vlad, and your HP costs are much higher, along with dealing less damage via Q, W, E, and R....basically everything ate nerfs.

He needs number buffs, Blood Rush needs to last longer than pool, and the MS buff should at least last from the start of the Blood Rush indicator till it goes away, even if it has to decay.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

surely he'd want more AP and less tankiness, since his E cost is higher the more hp you have and does less damage the less ap you have etc.

WoonStruck35 votes

Not-so-glorious evolution. :(

Kotex2 votes

{quoted}

Not-so-glorious evolution. :(

Glorious DEvolution

Nausicäa 34 votes

Why are you surprised? Ricklessabandon is who Riot turns to when they want to completely ruin a champion.

Same guy who did the Syndra nerfs where her E stun would fail to land for a year Same guy who ruined Azir, removed his knock up ect, he may still be strong but hes not fun anymore

This guy is a total dud and ruins everything he touches.

Faceroll Tactics20 votes

Makes me wonder how people like him ever got into the dev team in the first place

IxtaliKing13 votes

Wow it all makes sense now... I didn't know he was the one who took Azir's knock up :O. I still haven't forgiven him for taking Karma's shield bomb and everything else he did to her in 5.10. He is the reason I stopped playing Azir, and now he's doing this with Viktor, another champ I like. I feel like writing a complaint tbh.

Jambajewz10 votes

Do it, that's actually a really good idea. If one person is consistently making bad changes that the community doesn't like and that don't solve the problems they're supposed to target then they need to know he's doing a bad job. If enough people complain about his work specifically maybe they'll rethink his position on the dev team.

Messaiga9 votes

I'd say all those are accurate save for the Azir one. Removing his knock-up and moving attack speed to his W was justified, I still play him quite often and I enjoy him a lot. All it means is I can't play like a damn assassin anymore unless I'm pretty ahead.

Adolf Hit R3 votes

{quoted}

Why are you surprised? Ricklessabandon is who Riot turns to when they want to completely ruin a champion.

Same guy who did the Syndra nerfs where her E stun would fail to land for a year Same guy who ruined Azir, removed his knock up ect, he may still be strong but hes not fun anymore

This guy is a total dud and ruins everything he touches.

Removing Azir's knockup was a really good thing. It just gave him way, way too many options.

KETSU02 votes

is he the same guy who ruined Rengar bola?

Randomonium21 votes

All the Viktor changes feel very raw and rushed, like they knew they wanted to do something for him with the mage rework but they ran out of time to do it right. Hell, Viktor isn't even included as part of the official mid season mage update website that was released. If you're proud of the rework then why not include it in the official press release?

ForeverLaxx14 votes

The best part is that Viktor wasn't part of the spotlighted mages and he's arguably undergoing design shifts that more heavy than some who WERE in that spotlight. Vel'koz, for instance, lost the ability to stack his passive on his ult (in exchange for extra damage if you proc his passive before ulting) and the max Q range indicator was removed from enemy knowledge. That's it: his playstyle doesn't even change. Yet, despite this, Vel'koz was put on the list of mages they were targeting with this update while Viktor is getting a near overhaul in his play pattern with all these changes.

Mogarl11 votes

The most optimistic thing I can think about the whole thing is that it's very raw and didn't go through any play-testing. Perhaps he was just tagged on near the end of the process when they realized they had more time but before they decided the update would be sent to the PBE. The fact that Viktor wasn't even included on the mid-year magic page kind of supports that. Either way the handling on Viktor has been absolutely horrible looking around I haven't been able to find anything about his update from a rioter besides the 3 or 4 tweets from ricklessabandon. Furthermore there is no feedback thread for Viktor (nor for Syndra, Anivia, Kenen, or Xerath) on the PBE boards which makes everything look worse.

sp4418 votes

Hey, remember when old Champions like Morgana had their damage zones apply damage once per second instead of the now-standard 0.5 seconds, and it felt incredibly clunky and awkward, and Riot fixed it?

What happened to those days?

Sahn Uzal7 votes

Gangplank Sion Rengar item 3070

Barrclaw7 votes

It is really good to see big voices in the community speaking out about this.

FortisDominus7 votes

Rengar item 3070

Did people forget about rengars mid air bola change?

Jasiwel6 votes

1670 upvotes on the reddit thread right now. Riot seriously cannot ignore this feedback because at this point it is showing that a champion is going in the opposite direction they thought he would.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4ftav7/these_viktor_changes_are_going_to_make_him_the/

ForeverLaxx3 votes

The sad truth of this post is that, since it's on Reddit, Riot is more likely to see/address it. They've always put more weight on what Reddit says than their own official boards, and it infuriates me.

Jasiwel2 votes

I'm okay with that, frankly. Reddit in general is used by more people and the subreddit is a lot friendlier than the Boards generally, so I can't blame people for opting to it more than the Boards. It only makes logical sense for the venue with more people to yield greater input.

ForeverLaxx3 votes

It makes "logical sense" to focus more on what's effectively a third-party Fan Site than your own official forums?

See, this is why I hate the direction game developers are going. Reddit could be a resource, sometimes. It shouldn't replace your own forums.

Jasiwel2 votes

As an old forum poster, it is disappointing, but Reddit does contribute a great deal. There's a reason it sees as many users as it does.

ForeverLaxx1 votes

The only time I ever find myself on Reddit is if I do a google search for some information and the most relevant links just happen to be on Reddit. I refuse to go there unless I absolutely have to because I recognize the site for what it is: a large group of biased people like every other fan-driven content site. It's the same as going to the forum section of your favorite game's wiki. Sure, there's probably some actual information about the game from a mechanics point of view, but the majority of the postings are just as biased and reactionary as anywhere else.

Jasiwel2 votes

Aren't the Boards the exact same way though? You cannot deny the amount bias and bandwagoning that happens here on a daily basis.

ForeverLaxx2 votes

Except I come here for announcements and updates, which more often than not end up on Reddit instead. The only time any Red shows up here for an extended period is when they decide to launch a QA on some change they have no intention of tweaking any further.

RasCaelestis5 votes

This sums up perfectly what is wrong with the new changes. Thank you, fellow supporter of glorious metal!

Luxrath5 votes

"A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play" Rengar im still salty about how badly they gutted my rengo

DrCabes5 votes

"made clunky" "less satisfying" Veigar

never forget

Spoofghoul4 votes

item 3070Viktor item 3070 Glorious devolutionitem 3070

Frius4 votes

talk about rengar bola.

Nefas4 votes

Thanks for standing up for Viktor, MM

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

item 3070 Akali item 3070

Only Play Darius3 votes

To be fair he's half human, half robot. I would expect him to be a little clunky thematically, like he's fighting himself

Malicious Metal37 votes

Function over form!

Viktor would never augment himself if it would make him perform less than stellar. It's called augmentation for a reason, if you start replacing yourself with machine parts you need pinpoint accuracy and everything must be optimized.

Karma Deified12 votes

New Passive - Malfunction

Every spellcast grants Viktor a stack of Wear and Tear, at 3 stacks Viktor's next spellcast will have one of three random effects on cast.

  • Backfire - Viktor's spell will deal half it's damage to himself on cast but will deal massive bonus damage.
  • Jam - Viktor's spell will have a 1 second delay before activating but will refund the mana cost.
  • Disconnect - Viktor's spell will fail to cast and his next spell will cast twice.
Jambajewz4 votes

Try to land a combo of all your spells in a teamfight and your R doesn't go off because disconnect, teamfight lost to RNG, or Viktor is low and trying to land his combo and kills himself in the process because of backfire. You can't make spell casts inconsistent, nobody will play that champion, and rightly so, you can't go into a fight and not know whether your moves will even work.

Silver Fluffenbu2 votes

foreal, he's not a goblin

Adolf Hit R3 votes

Honestly viktor really doesn't need changes at all. He's got a low winrate among players who don't have experience, but players who play him regularly perform at or above 50% with him.

I say this as a Viktor main. He doesn't need buffs, and he certainly doesn't need nerfs. He's in a great spot right now. I've got no idea why they're even changing him.

Keti1 votes

Same thing's being done to kindred as of today's PBE patch

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