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Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>

Malicious Metal··414 votes·15,996 views

So, I've been recently advocating league's very own version of Tesla, trying to avert yet another rework that fails completely at capturing a champion's identity and the very things that make them unique and fun to play. Welp, I failed. Hell, we all know Riot doesn't have the best track record when it comes to changing reworks for champions that nobody plays. As long as your name isn't Lee sin or Riven you're screwed but anyways, there's something far more infuriating, which is the Patch entry for Viktor.

I quote;

Despite sporting a kit full of unique teamfighting tools, most of Viktor’s gadgets have been historically kept on a tight leash due to the efficiency of Death Ray’s infamous Augment: Shockwave.

Last time I checked it was Augment:AFTERSCHOCK The moment I saw this I dismissed it as nothing more but a minor naming error, there are so many champions with so many skill names, but oh god, what follows makes me really, really, really unhappy.

Opponents aren’t evaporated for making a single mistake, and Viktor gets to carry a fight through intelligent play like the diabolical mastermind he is.

Okay, really? Really? First off, People messing up should make them be punished and not simply have to deal with minor inconveniences like viktor's pitiful Death ray impact damage.

Secondly, and what leaves a bitter taste in my mouth; DIABOLICAL MASTERMIND

Whoever was in charge of this does NOT know who Viktor's supposed to be! Jesus christ (Prepare for some serious venting, profanity will be kept at a minimum but me not having had my coffee might make this a tad offensive)

Viktor is NOT a Villain per se, he is not your saturday morning bad guy with monocle and twirly moustache. I remember when Jayce's lore came about and EVERYBODY instantly freaked out about it pinning Viktor as THE bad guy, a real Jerk and cardboard cutout of your average villain.

Viktor might be SEEN as a villain but he is NOT DIABOLICAL. Viktor's a misguided genius who was stricken with anger, betrayal and depression, locking himself in his lab after his life's creation has been stolen from him by his mentor, leaving a serious mark on the inventor. He was betrayed by humanity and the very people he trusted, making him turn towards Technimaturgy to rid Humanity of these flaws, of corruption, envy, hate, to evolve past the feeble flesh and ascend to greater spheres through the use of technology.

Viktor is a VISONARY Just look at his passive icon http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/21/Glorious_Evolution.png/revision/latest?cb=20140924210457

Viktor is a misguided genius, betrayed by humanity and seeking to relinquish all the emotions that make humans suffer, but ultimately make us human. He is not malicious in any way.

He strives to IMPROVE upon humanity, paving the way for the glorious evolution. He is the machine herald bent on carrying humanity beyond the boundaries of their weak flesh and augment them, ridding them of their flaws but sadly also their humanity. He is a tragic character, no villainous individual bent on everyone's destruction.

//rant//

Tl;DR Viktor's changes are a thematic failure and whoever reworked him has no idea who viktor's supposed to be,

224 Comments

Smitemuffin125 votes

As a longtime Viktor main, THANK YOU

ZeeWolfZ100 votes

Let's look at other burst mages:

Veigar - Instant point click Ultimate. Syndra - Instant point click Ultimate. Annie - Instant point click Ultimate. Leblanc - Instant point click Ultimate. Brand - Instant point click Ultimate. Malzahar - Instant point click Ultimate

Viktor - Ultimate that has to be MANUALLY maneuvered while trying to spam your Combo, that does_** FULL DAMAGE AFTER 6.5 SECONDS**_?!?!?!?! WHAT?!?!?!

GhastlyGhoulMan33 votes

{quoted}

Let's look at other burst mages:

Veigar - Instant point click Ultimate. Syndra - Instant point click Ultimate. Annie - Instant point click Ultimate. Leblanc - Instant point click Ultimate. Brand - Instant point click Ultimate. Malzahar - Instant point click Ultimate

Viktor - Ultimate that has to be MANUALLY maneuvered while trying to spam your Combo, that does FULL damage after 6.5 seconds.

This. I mean honestly. I felt like Viktor was a pain to fight against, but at no moment did I think it was "unfair" or "op". His changes were unwarranted and Riot should've just left him alone.

Voluug132 votes

To be fair brand's is terrible 1v1.

And Malzahar is trash, can be dispelled and lost most of its damage.

ZeeWolfZ20 votes

Brand is Jungle now. Malz is Jungle now.

Welcome to Season 6.

Auroramancer48 votes

{quoted}

Let's look at other burst mages:

Veigar - Instant point click Ultimate. Syndra - Instant Delayed with required setup point-click Ultimate. Annie - Instant point click Ultimate. Leblanc - Instant Variable form point click/skillshot Ultimate. Brand - Instant Slow-travel point click Ultimate. Malzahar - Instant point click channeled Ultimate

Biff Manly8 votes

And in a similar boat to little Vickie-

Xerath stand still and get assassinated while you miss all your shots.

Shadragon15 votes

I'd say "miss" is a word that doesn't really apply to Xerath's ultimate. It's more about whether or not the enemy can remember how to right click the ground than it is about where you aim it. Honestly I'm surprised that it doesn't also reveal him to the enemy team and show them where Xerath's cursor is to boot.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

What if Viktor was never meant to be a burst mage? Everything Riot is doing screams "Control mage", and the way his kit works apart from his ult seems like something a control mage would use (zoning and waveclear).

ZeeWolfZ8 votes

What is he controlling? His deaths?

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

His E now does more damage in a waveclear setting (AKA when the augment hits). His ult is now more focused for damage over time. His W was and still is very good for zoning.

I'm not saying whether I like or dislike the changes, I don't play Viktor enough to care. But I can definitely see where Riot is coming from in these changes.

jr deputy meow11 votes

  1. his E was already doing enough damage to waveclear with just his E. This wasn't a buff to his waveclear, because it was already as good as you could ask it to be. No, it just ended up being a nerf to everything else.

  2. His ult already dealt excellent damage over time, and was useful for zoning. Now, as long as you get out before the next tick, it might as well have done no dps at all.

All they did to viktor was buff aspects of his kit that were already points of difference and good enough in their aspects while nerfing away what little reliability he still had

all of his abilities except for Q can be outplayed simply by issuing movement commands AFTER having the abilities landed on you; and there is nothing in viktor's kit that he can do to prevent the enemy from doing so. What other champion has so little ability to reliably land his combo on an opponent who is in range?

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

The first one is a good enough point, but the second is what I have problems with. It did have good damage over time (although not as much as what it does now). But it also had shitloads of burst damage. Amounts that were unhealthy for the champion with possibly the most reliable waveclear in the game to have. There really shouldn't be a mage who is allowed to be good at so many things. My thoughts are that this gives him more power in certain parts of his kit (DoT and waveclear) by taking away from other parts (burst), turning him from a generalist mage into a purer control mage.

jr deputy meow16 votes

Except that his being a jack of most trades with excellent waveclear and burst and decent zoning was PRECISELY what drew me, and probably everyone else who played viktor, to him as a champion

Let's quickly go over what Viktor had in his kit prior to the changes versus now

prior: Reliable up-front burst in lane and in teamfights thanks to his Q, E & ult summon Reliable poke thanks to his E safe Waveclear thanks to his E reliable, sustained presence in teamfights thanks to his lingering ult and his Q's low CD (weak pre-40 min, strong after) decent zoning thanks to his W and lingering ult unreliable control thanks to his W trading power in lane from his Q-E

Now: safe Waveclear thanks to his E moderate, unreliable sustained presence in teamfights thanks to his ult ticks and his Q moderately significant zoning thanks to his W, E aftershock, and delayed ult ticks unreliable control thanks to his W insignificant poke from his E weak up-front burst from his Q, E, ult

To compare, here's what he gained

  • additional and more significant zoning power in terms of damage taken by enemies if zoning abilities are ignored or they are locked down, especially before 40 minutes
  • additional teamfight damage against locked down opponents

Versus what he lost

  • Reliability in all aspects of his kit except waveclear and on all abilities except Q
  • poke (entirely)
  • aoe burst in teamfights (entirely)
  • single target burst in lane
  • trading power in lane (at medium or long range)

And what he still has

  • his Q's reliability and trading power at very close range
  • Safe waveclear
  • Unreliable control from his W
  • can safely do birds thanks to his Q and E

Viktor's old ult did relatively insignificant damage over time before 40 minutes thanks to a low base damage per second; whereafter it ramped up significantly, thanks to its exceptional AP ratio. In contrast, its burst was significant throughout the game... but never "ridiculous." When i think of an ultimate with 'ridiculous' burst, i think of Annie's ult, syndra's ult, veigar's ult, AP tristana's old ult, lux's ult, fizz's or AP ezreal's ult, or heimerdinger's ult-W, etc.; but viktor's ult, while it did SIGNIFICANT burst, was more on the tier of Zyra's ult, or AD ezreal's ult, or vladimir's ult. Late game, you didn't die from the ult so much as you did from the E or from the lingering damage. It's not like it was going to kill you on its own. But now, it's not even significant.

in context and as a comparison: i'm an ori main. Ori is a jack of most trades whose heaviest points of difference are her kiting, waveclear, and teamfighting ability. She also has excellent burst, poke, and sustained damage. Also notable is that even though she lacks mobility, she still feels relatively safe thanks to the shield on her E, the knockup on her ult, and the kiting potential of her W. Her ult, which has a SHORT delay and a respectable aoe, is notorious as an ability with high impact and high interplay. More than anything else, though, Orianna is renowned for being the most consistent and well-respected meta pick throughout the seasons since her release while ALSO maintaining one of the bottom 5 ban rates in the entirety of league. Seriously, it's down there with urgot.

so, why am i mentioning all of this?

Ori is an example of a generalist with extremely safe waveclear who is also very healthy and well-regarded. Even after hits to her early game safety and bullying power in the form of base AD and shield armor/MR nerfs (these both hit hard), she continues to be reliable, and continues to see heavy play.

Let me go over, below, what orianna has in her kit from the perspective of someone who mains her. I want you to compare it to Viktor and tell me why he shouldn't be allowed to have more than two or three things that he is any good at.

Orianna's kit:

  • safe waveclear thanks to her Q-W
  • lasthitting under tower thanks to her passive
  • reliable poke with a 1.1 AP ratio thanks to her Q-W
  • potent trading thanks to her Q-W, passive, and E
  • can safely do birds
  • strong up-front burst
  • excellent burst and sustained damage in teamfights
  • formidable kiting ability
  • utility on her E, R & W
Ulquiorra99546 votes

Riot doesn't have a slightest idea about what they are doing. More in news at 11.

Joke aside, this post really hits the spot - saying that as someone who plays Viktor since release and have actually bought RP for the first time to get his bundle. It really saddens me to see that whoever worked on him has no idea who Viktor is neither thematically nor in terms of gameplay. But as you said, Vik is no Riven or Lee and thus isn't entitled to a "take it slow and think it out" treatment.

Proelium8 votes

{quoted}

Riot doesn't have a slightest idea about what they are doing. More in news at 11.

Joke aside, this post really hits the spot - saying that as someone who plays Viktor since release and have actually bought RP for the first time to get his bundle. It really saddens me to see that whoever worked on him has no idea who Viktor is neither thematically nor in terms of gameplay. But as you said, Vik is no Riven or Lee and thus isn't entitled to a "take it slow and think it out" treatment.

THIS. This this this.

Riot has no clue why people like their game anymore.

I think they see recent success and people playing and think "yes! We're doing well!" when on the ground a lot of the reason people are playing is...

A. They've invested too much time and money to quit now...

B. New players join cuz their friends are still playing.

It's not like people are AMAZED by Riot's excellence... they're playing out of habit and new people are joining cuz they've realized that their friend's habit isn't going to go away.

That does NOT mean that Riot's last 2ish years of decisions have been good... they've just not failed so hard as to actually break people's habits.

Yago24 votes

Xerath's lore change was like that. He went from being a brooding and alienated magus with indescribable talent who gave up everything and paid the price to tamper with powers beyond his control to a generic power obsessed villain.

Jasiwel23 votes

IMO, his ultimate (thematically) was ravaged the most here.

It's clunky and confusing. As the player, I understand that the target will get hit by bursts of damage over time...but there is ABSOLUTELY NO VISUAL QUEUE showing when that burst happens. It just does.

I can't imagine how a player on the receiving end might feel because suddenly their champion just loses 400 HP without any indication why visually other than "Viktor's ult hovered over me for a couple of seconds..." Why separate it into delayed bursts rather than the DoT it has always been? Why increase the amount of ticks necessary rather than making it an actual DoT like it always has been?

In terms of gameplay, only his ultimate is bothering me - everything else actually feels quite alright, especially his Q. Hextech GLP feels really damn awesome on him, especially after how close he has to be to use his Q -and- how his Q's Shield benefits from the Mana.

What concerns me more is whether or not this entry in his rework is simply indicative of the writer's lack of knowledge on Viktor's actual identity, or if it's posing for new lore he will have where he becomes modern-day Xerath and just another generic villain.

Poorly Dressed5 votes

There is a small circle that goes towards the center, when it reaches the center, the burst happens.

Jasiwel14 votes

I would have never seen it if you hadn't told me (or pointed it out), which is why point. When everything is going on, it's quite difficult to see and something THAT important should not be difficult to see.

Poorly Dressed3 votes

Valid point! i don't think it can be spotted in the middle of a fight.

Jasiwel8 votes

What's even more frustrating is that it's not even in the patch notes....

A Superb Villain22 votes

Opponents aren’t evaporated for making a single mistake, and Viktor gets to carry a fight through intelligent play like the diabolical mastermind he is.

What the fucking fuck.

Malicious Metal16 votes

I know. I had to contain my disgust over this paragraph or else this thread might be as volatile as nuclear waste -.-

Sigh, it's the Jayce lore fiasco all over again.

333lom6 votes

I literally twitched when I read that in patch notes. Horrible.

MrWasjig19 votes

(Looks at title)

Well we fucking knew that the moment Ricklesabandon first put up the changes on Twitter so no goddamn surprise there. I don't even play Viktor but like the Mordekaiser rework, this one has me seriously satly.

Why you might ask? Because it makes me worry what bullshit Riot might try and pull with other champions. "We've decided to change Thresh because he doesn't fit his thematic of giving his targets flowers and gifts before he inevitably, and relentlessly...asks them to his tea party!" (As fucking amazing as that might be for a skin) The thought of it still worries me...Riot making bullshit changes that is, not Thresh's invitations to a teaparty. No they're pretty good he makes them on coloured paper and everything.

KushDid42017 votes

I mean look at Karthus

Riot literally believes he is a top performer right now

ElectroScalar14 votes

Malicious, thank you, just this

ridding them of their flaws but sadly also their humanity.

Please, it contradicts your claim (with which I agree) that Viktor is not a villain. Almost everyone forgets that being human =/= being humane. It doesn't even necessarily mean he wants to rid people of their humanity. He just wants to eliminate suffering.

Bearricane13 votes

So you shouldn't be punished for failing to avoid victor's disintegration ray range, and more importantly the aftershock damage, but you should be punished for not banning zed because merely having him on the map means you're not safe from his burst.

333lom13 votes

Diabolical Villain; the nerfs made me grumpy. This naming hurt me.

Exactly what you said, Viktor is not a villain. He's striving to help humanity, heck, Blitzcrank was designed to help clean Zaun! If that's not empathy, I don't know what is. He may look terrifying, but this just says how much he felt hurt by the injustice in the world, when the people who he trusted took advantage of his naiveté. That's what's amazing about this character - he's perceived as a villain in-universe because he's scary, because people don't understand him. But just looking scary doesn't automatically mean you're evil just cause. People scorned Tesla's inventions during his lifetime, and look how important they turned out to be in the real world.

The community rose when Jayce's lore was released, and it rose now even on a simple title. I believe this is enough to show that at least 90% believe Viktor is not a villain.

Malicious Metal10 votes

The thing is; Those who DO consider him a villain are those who don't even bother reading his lore and often see him only as the Creator of the Battlecast line, the worst case scenario AU.

DrCyanide12 votes

I'm a bit surprised they still have his Passive consuming both a Passive slot and and Item slot.

I mean, Gangplank doesn't have an item for keeping track of item 3902 item 3901 item 3903 (has anyone not upgraded them in that order?). Why can't a similar technique be used to give Viktor more/better options, without eating his item slot?

Velzard of Koz8 votes

Because only some champions are chosen to deserve double-passive :D

Narasimha12 votes

Because Viktor's item ends up being one of the best mage items around, period. Plus, GP's upgrades only influence his ultimate.

The Anagram King12 votes

The worst part of all this is how excellent Solcrushed's rework was. It was a triumph! We GOT our good Viktor. He was healthy - tons of burst in the late game, but immobile and easy to isolate. No flat CC. Relied on map and zone awareness.

It's utterly ridiculous that Ricklessabandon's idea of teamfight potential is: "Now you miss your attacks easier lol!"

... ugh.

Melledoneus9 votes

Another day, another metal. Soon, we're going to see posts about Orianna and Blitzcrank.

Needless to say, I agree. Riot needs to get feedback rather than converting a burst mage into a super-long term DPS champion. Viktor doesn't have the tools to sport that playstyle, so WHY THE HELL ARE THEY DOING IT?

-Sincerely, a dedicated and disillusioned Viktor player

J Eevo8 votes

I found the new E to be managable (though hardly a good payoff for the work you need to make it hit) but the situation where the R is actualy usefull is so niche i never actually got it to be good. It honestly doesn't fit the rest of his kit, he doesn't have the tools to get the full value out of his ult. You'll usually get a tick off, maybe two in a teamfight. and the 2second cooldown between them just makes it really awkward(I had a guy, walk out of it to avoid the e, then walk into it again to continune wailing on me, and he dodged the second tick because of that.

If it's supposed to stay it should get better AI and at least a speed buff, the one you get from getting the augment up to rank 3 barely helps.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NiBr0dRA,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-04T16:31:51.834+0000)

Viktor is NOT a Villain per se, he is not your saturday morning bad guy with monocle and twirly moustache.

Yes he is, he's an evil cartoon villain who seeks to force every human into becoming a machine or kill them.

What's more laughable is any argument that Viktor is morally grey. He's a diabolical mastermind because he's evil and smart.

Venom Vux11 votes

"Yes he is, he's an evil cartoon villain who seeks to "force" every human into becoming a machine or kill them."

Please show me in the lore where it specifically states that he "FORCES" people into becoming his acolytes ? He is morally grey,if you have certain degree of perspective on life experiences that human being goes thru,when he loses something precious to him.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

"Yes he is, he's an evil cartoon villain who seeks to "force" every human into becoming a machine or kill them."

Please show me in the lore where it specifically states that he "FORCES" people into becoming his acolytes ? He is morally grey,if you have certain degree of perspective on life experiences that human being goes thru,when he loses something precious to him.

"Adapt or be removed."

Word of the crystal's potential reached beyond the borders of Piltover. Viktor Viktor, the machine-augmented scientist from Zaun, brought Jayce an offer – together, they could use the crystal to advance his "glorious evolution," a vision of humanity fused with technology. Jayce refused, but the Zaunite had no intention of leaving empty handed. He effortlessly blasted Jayce aside and seized the crystal, incinerating the lab's meager security force as he left for Zaun.

He's evil. Any claim of legitimate moral complexity is bunk.

Having a sympathetic backstory does not make a character morally complex.

ElectroScalar13 votes

Jumping to conclusions based on half-truths (it's confirmed that Jayce's lore is from Jayce's perspective, i.e. heavily biased) is wrong.

Our own world is moving towards merging humanity with technology. This isn't bad just because you watched 3 or 4 movies where the machines are evil and want to destroy humanity. It isn't always like that. Prejudices are what kill.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

Jumping to conclusions based on half-truths (it's confirmed that Jayce's lore is from Jayce's perspective, i.e. heavily biased) is wrong.

Our own world is moving towards merging humanity with technology. This isn't bad just because you watched 3 or 4 movies where the machines are evil and want to destroy humanity. It isn't always like that. Prejudices are what kill.

Viktor's words aren't a half truth.

Also, if Viktor and his friends want to combine with machinery that's cool. The part where he incinerates innocent people so he can steal someone else's technology (which also makes him a hypocrite btw) so he can make his vision a reality is what makes him evil.

You should work on your reading comprehension. At no point did I say that merging his humanity with technology was evil.

333lom9 votes

You are misinformed. Viktor does not force anyone to turn into a cyborg. Riot confirmed this. Also, Viktor does not steal technology from others. He took a power crystal from Jayce.

And don't insult others telling them they need better reading comprehension. The merging remark was meant to show you how biased you are.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

You are misinformed. Viktor does not force anyone to turn into a cyborg. Riot confirmed this. Also, Viktor does not steal technology from others. He took a power crystal from Jayce.

And don't insult others telling them they need better reading comprehension. The merging remark was meant to show you how biased you are.

Why are you speaking for ElectroScalar? By defending them and having to explain the meaning behind their words you're just showing off how impotent they are. Oh, and how does the merging remark show how biased I am? Biased against what, merging humanity with technology? As I've said, there is no reason to assume I hold that viewpoint. Work on your reading comprehension.

I insult people who make idiotic and poorly thought out assumptions about me.

Oh you're right, stealing a power source Jayce was working on developing after mercilessly slaughtering Jayce's security team is much better.

333lom8 votes

Insulting others just shows how primitive you are.

Security team? Hah, talk about reading comprehension. Security force may as well have been a simple security camera. I work in a laboratory. It most certainly doesn't have security guards.

This conversation ends here. I'm not wasting any more of my time on you.

Malicious Metal10 votes

There's no real evidence of Viktor having killed anyone, not to mention having forced someone to join his cause.

Hell, In Zaun it's almost as if he's a savior of sorts. The weak and incapacitated turn to join his glorious evolution, being cured of their disabilities and being given the power to achieve greatness.

Viktor is FAR from being the hero, he's a misunderstood individual. Somewhere between antihero and "likable" villain. You can condemn his methods but his intentions were/are pure, he wanted to pave the way for a better future for humanity but he might be misguided and taken the path towards insanity. He does not strive for domination, he does not need riches, he does not inflict pain because he likes it but sometimes it's his last resort to achieve his goals.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NiBr0dRA,comment-id=001700000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-05-04T19:15:50.514+0000)

There's no real evidence of Viktor having killed anyone,

"He effortlessly blasted Jayce aside and seized the crystal, incinerating the lab's meager security force as he left for Zaun."

Malicious Metal12 votes

All I see is Viktor overpowering Jayce and seizing the crystals, as far as we're informed Jayce works alone so the security force might as well be some kind of AI drones or security systems like in the Jinx cinematic.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NiBr0dRA,comment-id=00170000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-04T19:23:05.274+0000)

All I see is Viktor overpowering Jayce and seizing the crystals, as far as we're informed Jayce works alone so the security force might as well be some kind of AI drones or security systems like in the Jinx cinematic.

Speculation, occam's razor dictates we go with the simplest choice, which is to say that Viktor mercilessly incinerated innocent people.

Shadragon10 votes

But that's not the simplest choice, and it goes against the established lore of Piltover. You have to think from an in-universe perspective when you're discussing or working with lore, otherwise you just ruin everything.

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