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There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis

Malicious Metal··280 votes·10,027 views

Just introduce http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a5/Pox_Arcana_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235519 http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/40/Netherstride_Grimoire_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235734 and http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d4/Rite_of_Ruin_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235733 to summoner's rift.

These three items, Pox Arcana, Netherstride Grimoire and Rite of Ruin were Black market brawler items who all had the same base stats of 100 ap, 100% mana regen and 20% CDR but had very diverse passives who catered towards a wide spectrum of AP mid laners.

Allowing us to build those in Summoner's rift would add diversity, give more CDR items with varying effects and maybe even make Mid laners stop building FQC in favor of getting these items with powerful stats and effects.

223 Comments

Void Nargacuga95 votes

They might have to nerf the AP and possibly the passives as well since they do have good passives. Still would be cool to see them. Never really got to many chances to try them out honestly.

EDIT: Gonna add in the passives for each one, their respective stats, and gold efficiency for each which doesn't include the passive. I hope this helps.

Netherstride Grimoire http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/40/Netherstride_Grimoire_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235734 :

  • Stats

  • +100% base mana regeneration

  • +100 ability power

  • +20% cooldown reduction

  • Passive

  • Unique – Malice: Gain 20% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage.

  • Netherstride Grimoire is 117.6% gold efficient without the passive.

Rite of Ruin http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d4/Rite_of_Ruin_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235733 :

  • Stats

  • +100% base mana regeneration

  • +100 ability power

  • +20% cooldown reduction

  • Passive

  • Unique – Razing: Gains charges upon moving or killing enemies, up to 300 charges. Attacking structures expends 50 charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus true damage.

  • Rite of Ruin is 117.6% gold efficient without the passive.

Pox Arcana http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a5/Pox_Arcana_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235519 :

  • Stats

  • +100% base mana regeneration

  • +100 ability power

  • +20% cooldown reduction

  • Passive

  • Unique – Pox: Applies a stack of Pox for 10 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times.

  • Active

  • Unique – Disease Harvest: Deals 100 magic damage plus 20 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60 second cooldown.

  • Pox Arcana is 117.6% gold efficient without the active.

RogueWill34 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tHqat3HX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-17T10:13:14.609+0000)

They might have to nerf the AP on them possible though since they all have good passives. Still would be cool to see them. Never really got to many chances to try them out honestly.

And probably rise the gold needed to buy them because if I remember correctly they were ridiculously cheap

Malicious Metal25 votes

3000 gold to be precise.

RogueWill4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tHqat3HX,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-17T10:17:10.506+0000)

3000 gold to be precise.

Yeah, i think their gold efficiency were around 120% without the actives, to make it viable their gold efficiency should be around 80% ish. Something around 3200g with 80ap and only 50% mana regen.

KaisadiIIa33 votes

The whole point is to make new mana regeneration items. If you remove their mana regeneration then they have no point.

tl;dr: Never less than 100% mana regen.

RogueWill4 votes

{quoted}

The whole post is to make new mana regeneration items. If you remove their mana regeneration then they have no point.

tl;dr: Never less than 100% mana regen.

Then either the CDR or the AP should take an even bigger hit. 120% gold efficiency is way too high considering how good the actives are, there will be no reason not to rush them even if you are vlad since they would be so cost effective.

Aspynn1 votes

Well you would want to rush one of them anyways because of the mana regen and early cdr, most mages build things like that first.

IGotScuttleCrabs5 votes

Maybe if they blocked you out of buying more than 1 it could work. Having 2 items to full cdr as well as mana issues solved would be problematic.

Dessem3 votes

item 3165 item 3174

2 items to full CDR and all Mana issues solved.

yay nibbers4 votes

They'd need toning down for sure (AP and passives) but it'd be really cool to see them introduced as alternatives to Morellonomicon. They could change Morello's build path to use the Lost Chapter item they all build out of (also needs toning down) so they all have the same build path but all have different passives and therefore different uses. Could be a cool thing to add for the immobile mage update they're working on.

Void Nargacuga2 votes

Yeah, I agree... I should probably add in that I think that even the passives need some tuning as well. I'm glad this is creating a civil discussion!

Z462 votes

Reduce all of their AP to 80, to match item 3165.

However, Morellonomicon still only costs 2550, and is currently 121.3% gold efficient without the passive. They have to either raise the cost of Morellonomicon, which they most likely don't want to do, or reduce the cost of the Lost Chapter upgrades.

Make them all cost a flat 2600, and they'll have the same gold efficiency without their passives which would roughly be 119%.

Their uniques can frankly stay the same, except Razing. Netherstride Grimoire's Malice passive is basically just Black Cleaver's passive; and Pox is one of the most awesome actives for AoE mages, and encourages good positioning.

Razing works like a structure-specific Rapid Firecannon, but it should probably only generate up to maybe 100 charges, since it uses 50 for each hit on a structure. This will make it surpass RFC in structure damage in just two hits thanks to the AP scaling, but won't let mages just shred through a turret.

Lock out the Lost Chapter items after buying one, meaning you have to buy Morellonomicon, Unholy Grail, Nashor's Tooth or another CDR solution, and you won't be able to take advantage of their different unique effects.

Actually xPeke7 votes

I feel like those were really good and fun items, they would definetly need some tweaking but i'm in with the idea

Skypual3 votes

And you know that if those items were added and FQS stayed same midlaners would STILL build FQC because it is OP. Third best active in the game, cost efficient, you get 1500~ gold from passive while item costs 2200.

Mages just would be OP because they would get new tools, they would build FQC and then those books.

LankPants16 votes

And you know that if those items were added and FQS stayed same midlaners would STILL build FQC because it is OP.

If they were still building FQC over this it would be because high-end AP items are super overcosted. Rabadon's is the most expensive item in the game at 3.8K, Zonya's isn't that far behind at 3.5K and a lot of other AP items are also 3K+. FQC is good because it's a cheep item that makes building these items possible.

Skypual2 votes

Not OVER this item, before this item.

LankPants12 votes

Either way that's the reason why mages would buy FQC, it's far better to look at the root cause rather than just slinging nerfs until some stick and most likely crippling both mages and AP supports.

Skypual2 votes

Oh my god... The root of the cause is FQC being OP. Mages have options. And they do not need extra buffs.

LankPants11 votes

Try reading that again, I didn't say mages have no options, just that they're way too expensive.

Boulderox5 votes

actually the root of the problem is that mr is cheaper, so mages and ap champs are countered easier, almost every ap item that is of use to them has been increased in gold. And there isn't any cdr past 20-30% unless a mage wants to build a dumb item 3115 item 3100 item 3152, which are suboptimal for a lot of mid laners. So FQC is a dream for them, a very strong active, mana regen item, even if it was nerfed, and a way TO GET MORE GOLD and cdr, with 50ap to boot.

I personally hate FQC with a passion, but i know why laners are choosing it, there aren't any good alternatives to what FQC can bring to the table, first item mages need to build mid is usually a mana item, boom done, have ap so you are doing more damage, done, that rare cdr for ap items, done 10%, and GOLD GOLD GOLD, mid laners live and die by it, the active is nothing but a cherry on top.

Skypual3 votes

Okay, so you're telling me that the root of the problem that FQC is abused by midlaners is MR being cheap?

I don't know what to expect now.

KING 5HARK3 votes

MR is cheaper and AP GOT MORE EXPENSIVE. AP got more expensive is his point

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Actually, one of the point of the preseason changes, and the reason AP items got more expensive, was that those items generally were overly cost-efficient compared to the remaining armory.

Let's take Zhonya's, as an example. It has a 87.9% cost efficiency. And a really powerful active effect, which is not calculated into these numbers. Thornmail is another item with a powerful effect beyond its stats. It has 85.1% cost efficiency. Randuin's: 80% cost efficiency. Dead Man's Plate, the current go-to Armor item: 83.3% efficient. Righteous Glory: 95.5% cost efficient...but 600 gold is spent on mana. Mercurial Scimitar: 98.1%. Used to be 92.7% before the addition of the Lifesteal (which I did not really understood).

And Rabadon's? 92.7% on its own. An extra 20% for every 100 AP you got from other sources. Needs 37 AP to be 100% efficient. Infinity Edge: 96.5% + 5.6% for every 10% additional Crit Chance Lord van Damm's Pillager: 96.5%.

Nagma is back3 votes

nerf the mana regen . so people who dont use mana dont waste gold , and mana champs still have to buy item 3165

LankPants46 votes

Why? One of the disadvantages to being manaless is that CDR itemisation sucks for you. Manaless champs have a ton of advantages for being manaless, why should they have zero disadvantages?

Orangesilk21 votes

item 3142 item 3508 item 3071 Oh boy, it sure sucks being a manaless AD champion these days, there's nowhere to get CDR.

The guys getting the shaft are the VERY FEW AP manaless champions: Kennen Mordekaiser Rumble.

LankPants24 votes

You're not wrong, there's no disadvantage to being a manaless AD. That's part of the reason why champs like Zed, Riven and Yasuo seem to break at the slightest change. I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

KaisadiIIa15 votes

Yasuo? He doesn't even care about CDR, and he builds no CDR items unless he wants the item for something else.

His Q and his E aren't affected by CDR, and you won't build CDR just to have more windwalls.

This uninformed Yasuo hate has to stop.

ChaoticPinecone8 votes

Most ADCs are in the same boat - they wouldnt care about CDR at the expense of damage. Its just that Essence Reaver exists now, and ghostblade is pretty strong.

Battlecast Sona6 votes

mentioning Yasuo as an AD midlaner who breaks at the slightest change isn't wrong though - even small changes have made Yasuo's viability fly around faster than his E does. Maybe you need to calm down.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

It does not. There has not been any given time where Yasuo had a consistently high winrate on this game (maybe before his nerfs at the start of S4, but that's all).

But even if he did, they are explicitely mentioning that Yasuo breaks easily when CDR items get buffed, which is plainly wrong and it is what I was answering to.

LankPants4 votes

It does not. There has not been any given time where Yasuo had a consistently high winrate on this game

He was up at 52% with a near 100% P/B on the first patch of the preseason. With Warlords being buffed back up again there's potential for him to spike back up again.

Anyway I'd say this isn't that important, because Yasou's pick/ban rate fluctuates with his power more than his win rate. When Yasuo breaks his pick rate spikes to about 40%-60%, then his ban rate spikes to 80%-90%. This has happened time after time and the game essentially becomes 'ban Yasou or play the entire game pulling your hair out'.

But even if he did, they are explicitely mentioning that Yasuo breaks easily when CDR items get buffed, which is plainly wrong and it is what I was answering to.

I actually didn't say that the break easily when CDR is buffed, maybe I implied it but I never said it. I said that he lacks any disadvantages to being manaless, this is not untrue. Yasuo would not be in any way benefited if he had mana.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Ok, you are right, you never said that CDR broke Yasuo, sorry.

52% winrate is just average, and about his pick/ban rate it's because of his fame, nothing more. From my personal experience, Yasuo is a noobstomper a la Master Yi or Katarina. People will always whine about him, people will play him whenever X pro says he's viable and people will ban him whenever he's popular.

Dessem4 votes

52% winrate is just average

They did mention that Yasuo is a high skillcap champion, and therefore should never have a winrate over 50% to be considered balanced. Same level of difficulty as Azir and Evelynn, who may also never have a 50% winrate iirc.

Count Zubat5 votes

You forgot everybody's most hated... ehm, I mean, favorite vampire/hemomancer Vladimir

Malicious Metal7 votes

getting CDR runes, investing 18 points in the cunning tree and building SV, WOta and Ionian boots makes him reach the CDR cap rather easily.

I Miss Cannon4 votes

People still hating Vladimir rofl

Count Zubat3 votes

There still are Vlad haters. I'm not one of 'em, but I met few when playing him.

Rozzeta6 votes

Being manaless is an advantage itself. What are you talking about?

It's like you wanted the same items but at a discount because you're not using a stat.

TotalJerk3 votes

One of the disadvantages to being manaless is that CDR itemisation sucks for you.

Only if you're AP. Manaless AD champs can buy bundles of CDR AND damage/defense casually.

Decrit3 votes

Point is: should cdr be so much in mage itemization?

Cdr for mages is a multiplier like atk speed and crit for carries, and they already bring strong utility to the team.

To me is fair that they have to pick items that do not fit well their base builds ( lile support items ) if that is a good enough tecnical choice, or if they want the utility given by the item.

It is just that FQC is too much powerfl overall for mages.

Probably an additional cdr item won' t be that bad, however.

KaisadiIIa24 votes

And why do AD champions have a variety of atk speed and crit options?

If you want to build attack speed you have: item 3153 item 3930 item 3124 item 3115 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087 item 3078 item 3142

If you want to build critical chance you have: item 3508 item 3031 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087 item 3078

Meanwhile, as an AP, if you want CDR you have: item 3092 item 3100 item 3165 item 3174 item 3152 item 3115

And, from there, there is one item (Nashor's Tooth) that can't be used by mages, only AP fighters like Diana, other one that can be used only by two or three (Lich Bane) and FQC that RIOT doesn't want them to build. AD champions have far more options which are enough to make sure everyone has the item they need.

Decrit5 votes

I think because building attack speed is just more versatile and easier to build on items design-wise. It comes just easier to do and to assess, plus you don' t have the same cap for both attack speed and cdr so it comes natural that you have more attack speed sources than cdr.

Sure, there are way too many, i can agree on that.

Also, you forgot to mention item 3060 which is very valuable but a bit of an underdog and item 3158 that are universally applicable. Still, your point makes sense aniway. That' s why i said that an additional cdr item would not be that bad.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Well, I did not want to mention boots (I did not mention Berserker's either). And Banner of Command it's not viable for mages, maybe for some supports but that's all.

Daedalus87111 votes

Banner is core on Veigar.

Use it on a caster minion and watch as they struggle to figure out which one is the real you.

Dessem2 votes

I laughed harder than I should have.

OneSmoothDude2 votes

Why are you comparing AD champions' attack speed and crit itemization options to mages' CDR options?

They are completely different topics for several different reasons, and they should not be compared side-by-side.

Audiomancy4 votes

Probably because that's what the guy he was replying to did.

Cdr for mages is a multiplier like atk speed and crit for carries, and they already bring strong utility to the team.

Pale Pirate1 votes

I don't know if you guys realize it, but for the sake of the game riot does NOT want two items to give 40% cdr. Seriously, it's stupid. If you want cdr you should actively try to build for it.

Niaphim10 votes

item 3508 + item 3158 or item 3133

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