I don't usually do these kinds of threads but I need to vent

Malicious Metal··59 votes·15,509 views

Kai'Sa is by far the most disgusting champion ever released, and what else would you expect from the designer that did Camille?

This champion deals way too much damage for how hard she is to kill because unlike Vayne, she gets a huge ass shield and the privilege to build item 3812 that makes her insanely hard to take down due to the fact that she just heals up like crazy and gets burst immunity through its passive.

Factor in the unbelievably high damage her kit's loaded with and you get a champion that just feels flat out unfair to fight. She has invisibility, missing hp damage with NO cooldown, strong burst, good dps and even frigging poke with W.

Just an overloaded mess of a champion that actually gets to be my most despised champion ever. Her character and visuals don't help either since it's a boring mess that's CLEARLY been designed to SELL well through oversexualisation and over the top flashy animations.

This champion needs to seriously have its weaknesses refined and needs some chunky nerfs before she'll actually get to be played. https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/35227026/kai1.jpg

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/35227031/kai2.jpg

117 Comments

abca9828 votes

Remember when she was said to be inspired by Vayne and her "high risk, high reward" playstyle and we all thought it was a bad idea?

Remember when people thought she was weak at release so we all said "she is fine, just wait till people learn to play her" and she was buffed anyways?

I do remember it.

Malicious Metal18 votes

Her high damage was supposed to be "justified" with her low range. Lo and behold, Reddit bitches about her 500 range and Riot increases it.

DuskDaUmbreon13 votes

500 range was just pathetic, though. It felt extremely awkward.

525 is fine, assuming some minor numbers nerfs come through. Which they are.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Tfw even after the buffs its still lower than both Vayne, and most of the ADC roster.

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

The funny thing is that she's not even "high risk, high reward", because of that huge shield she gets when ulting.

AirKingNeo21 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kaisa/adc/diamond for anyone who wants to deny

High pick rate, insanity banrate, high winrate. This shit should be hotfixed, but this Riot's balance team we're talking about...

Also, Kai'Sa isn't that sexual. Play Evelynn or Ahri.

Malicious Metal17 votes

You know, I've just went over her ability descriptions and oh lord, that's a load of grade A BS. She's so bloody overloaded.

Why does her passive, additionally to the on hit damage and 20% missing hp execute, generate stacks off ALLY CC? Why does her Q have to deal 200% damage to low health minions? Why do AA's reduce her E cooldown? Why does her shield last a bloody 3 seconds to make retaliating pointless?

Seriously, can someone enlighten me as to how this champion's allowed to have all this shit in her kit?

AirKingNeo18 votes

Her Q having an execute for minions is fine. The issue is it nearly doubles in damage with evolve. Her E has a long cooldown so AAs reducing it is fine. Her ult is fine because it's very weak early.

Just nerf her passive and Q evolve to 9 missiles.

M00ndanc36 votes

they just nerfed it to 10

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Q evolve to 9 would be a joke.

You could set up further decay after the first 6 missiles, but cutting it to 9 probably is a bit too much, since it'd affect distribution of them as well.

Salron13 votes

There is literally nothing wrong with Kai'sa's kit It's actually pretty bad conceptually

Her numbers are just really overtuned

Terozu4 votes

You think her kit is overloaded? Seriously? Shes overtuned not overloaded. For one thing she is the first champ in years to have 0 cc.

You know MordeKaiser has mich more right? And Vayne?

Omg Kaisa does execute magic damage every 5 hits.

Oh well vayne does % max health true damage every 3.

Kaisa can increase her movement speed and stealth.

For like 1.5 seconds which is way less than Vaynes and vaynes is a dash so she cant be slowed. Also it takes way more time for her stealthed to come online.

Kaisa has 0 cc Vayne has a point and click knoclback at level 3 that can also stun

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

{quoted}

You think her kit is overloaded? Seriously? Shes overtuned not overloaded. For one thing she is the first champ in years to have 0 cc.

You know MordeKaiser has mich more right? And Vayne?

Omg Kaisa does execute magic damage every 5 hits.

Oh well vayne does % max health true damage every 3.

Kaisa can increase her movement speed and stealth.

For like 1.5 seconds which is way less than Vaynes and vaynes is a dash so she cant be slowed. Also it takes way more time for her stealthed to come online.

Kaisa has 0 cc Vayne has a point and click knoclback at level 3 that can also stun

Kai’sa with rage blade applies stacks as fast as vayne applies 3, Kai’sa has an attack speed buff and a nuke, along with hybrid damage Corki style that is impossible to itemize against, also kai’sa has a shield that she can pop up point blank and beaindeadly dodge stuff with her At will

Terozu3 votes

Vayne with Rageblade procs Silver bolts twice in a row every other auto attack. Thats 24% max health in under a second. VS ANY TARGET EVEN FULL ARMOR TANKS.

Kai'Sa either builds ad and her abilities dont do that much damage and you build armor, or she builds ap and you build mr.

Literally Vayne just needs to build this: item 3087 item 3124 item 3031 item 3046 item 3094 item 3047

And then sit there and laigh at you. As she is able to do 100% max health in under 5 seconds from silver bolts alone not including her ad damage from crits and statikk. And in addition she takes 22% reduces damage from other adcs. And if thats not enough this costs less than Kai'Sa's typocal full build.

Death Rex1 votes

The build you showed has no kinds of survivability at all. No lifesteal, no magic resist (if there is a mage in the enemy team) and she only takes 22% reduced damage if she hits the adc first (which she probably can't since tanks are between her and them). That's a build you might see in low elo, gold-plat maybe in some games where the vayne is fed, but in general is that build shit.

Kai'sa can pump out the damage WHILE being safe as fuck. Like seriously, if she jumps into 3 enemies while her frontline is fighting she can't be killed by any assassine or mage at all.

Terozu1 votes

Which is why she takes blood lust and makes it so she heals for 15% of her silverbolts damage.

And she doesnt even need sustain or have to target squishies. She burts down tanks every bit as fast as she does squishies. Any fight she doesnt like has her ult knock u back and stealth away.

And if you really want survivability get rid of Tabis for either Botrk, Deaths dance or Bloodthirster.

DeathBurst2 votes

Why do AA's reduce her E cooldown?

Actually, that's a pretty good design. It means she can have her E often if she can keep attacking, but the base cooldown is super long to make sure she can't use it to flee.

Why does her shield last a bloody 3 seconds to make retaliating pointless?

We're talking about an ADC jumping on you, possibly out of range of her own support. It's ONE shield, kill her THROUGH it, don't wait it out.

Why does her Q have to deal 200% damage to low health minions?

To give her a modicum of waveclear. It's not even guaranteed, they have to be low health first. She's fine, a ton of other ADC have better waveclear than her even with this mechanic.

Only point with which I agree is the passive getting stacked by allied CC. I can't explain that.

IainG101 votes

I think the passive stack from allies thing is to easily give her her jump point for ult

DeathBurst1 votes

Humm, yeah, good point. It's probably that, so that she can follow when her frontline engages. But I think that it also adds a lot of damage from allies for free, when that's not really the point. It's the only aspect of her kit that sounds a bit iffy to me.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfsUVbH5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-25T22:49:12.940+0000)

You know, I've just went over her ability descriptions and oh lord, that's a load of grade A BS. She's so bloody overloaded.

Why does her passive, additionally to the on hit damage and 20% missing hp execute, generate stacks off ALLY CC? Why does her Q have to deal 200% damage to low health minions? Why do AA's reduce her E cooldown? Why does her shield last a bloody 3 seconds to make retaliating pointless?

Seriously, can someone enlighten me as to how this champion's allowed to have all this shit in her kit?

yeah the AA CDR on E actually blows my mind and makes me mad. Riot...legitimately what were u thinking. The ability actually reduces its OWN CD because it gives her AS. It might be ok if it only did 1-2 of the 3 things it does, AS buff, MS buff, Invisibility...how is it ok for it to shorten its already not lengthy CD... Its not cool.

Bioness4 votes

{quoted}

Also, Kai'Sa isn't that sexual. Play Evelynn or Ahri.

Those two are meant to be sexual, nothing about Kai'sa's story matches her appearance. Look at other champions that are associated with the Void, then look at her. If she was meant to "survive" the void. I would have expected Kai'sa to look like Sarah Kerrigan, who yes still had boobs and high heels, but she at least looked like she was a human fused with a monster and not a super model in a purple suit.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Deny what exactly? Her pickrate and banrate only prove she's a popular champion.

Her winrate (based on OP's picture) is ~50%. Is that considered OP nowadays? Normal winrate?

I don't deny that she has some strong item interactions and that her lategame isn't lacking but her early game is absolute shit and if you bully her, she won't come back to bite you that hard (if at all). She has 0 escapes when it comes to ganking her.

AirKingNeo1 votes

53.76% rounds to 53%.

Also, high pickrate + high winrate is broken tier. Adding on high ban rate and you have a champion that should have been hotfixed.

TempName7481413 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfsUVbH5,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-25T22:34:29.375+0000) CLEARLY been designed to SELL well through oversexualisation

skin tight attire isn't new to kaisa, you know.. Lux Vayne Fiora come to mind

and neither is cleavage.. Ahri Elise Nidalee

Malicious Metal36 votes

Did I say it's new? No.

It just feels deliberate that the "Void Survivor" looks less than an actual survivor who's been through hardships just to have an appealing visual image. When I heard we'd get Kassadin's daughter I was excited to see how she manage to get by in such a hostile place.

Then we got this disappointing meal for the masses.

3411235456529 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfsUVbH5,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-25T22:59:31.663+0000)

Did I say it's new? No.

It just feels deliberate that the "Void Survivor" looks less than an actual survivor who's been through hardships just to have an appealing visual image. When I heard we'd get Kassadin's daughter I was excited to see how she manage to get by in such a hostile place.

Then we got this disappointing meal for the masses.

Dont forget that comic that they released with Kai'sa that had numerous extremely awkwardly forced shots of her butt in like every page.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Their excuse was the in-game model just made her look purely voidling and lacked any semblance of humanity.

So they gave her a deep V so in game you could see the human part. The splash art came out looking sexualized because of this, but honestly, what else could they have done?

Removing the deep V removes the whole "human" aspect and just makes her look like a voidling with a helmet.

So I let this bit pass but the VO still confuses me. She seems so unaffected by the void in her VO. Like, she seems so normal. I don't get why anyone would be scared of the girl in the purple jumpsuit like they apparently are in the lore.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Literally expose her shoulders and arms?

Humanity is defined by their tool use. Not tits.

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

Watch out, they'll call you an SJW for not liking her design.

Big Lincoln8 votes

im kinda tired of the paltry nerfs she gets (2 less missiles fucking LOL) more than her actual balance state

riot has fucking destroyed champions for less

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

In case you haven't noticed, Riot has recently realized that destroying champions like that is a fucking shitty way to go about things. And even then, they've only done that in the past when there is no way to fix them without a full rework. See: Kalista, Zoe, Aatrox.

And cutting out 16% of her damage on her primary damage ability is hardly a pathetic nerf. It'd be like cutting out 16% of Gangplank's Q.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Zoe?

She was overbearingly overtuned for a bit, but she's balanced now and no rework was done.

They just had to shift her numbers around a bit.

Malix Farwin8 votes

I think they buffed her too soon.

M00ndanc32 votes

don't worry there decreaseing the amount of damage her q does by removing two missiles and also nerfing the duration of her AS buff on the pbe right now.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Yeah that's going to fix a champ that has 90% banrate in diamond, 53% winrate and 20% pickrate. When was the last time you saw a 90% banrate champion outside of like bronze/silver banning zed and yasuo? Yeah exactly. I just think about irelias hotfix nerf and the immediate next nerf pretty much hitting her entire kit. Meanwhile kai'sa slowly gets "toned down" it's an ADC afterall. Can't get too hard on nerfing them. See xayah still being bullshit toptier for reference.

NemeBro6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfsUVbH5,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-25T22:34:29.375+0000)

Kai'Sa is by far the most disgusting champion ever released, and what else would you expect from the designer that did Camille?

A versatile, fun, and mostly fair design that should be looked at when designing future champions in the same class?

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

Yeah this ^ lmao

As fucked as Camille was on release, and as dumb as Riot was for releasing her when they did (The patch before Christmas break resulting in a month without any touch-ups)

Camille is a brilliantly designed Champion. She can do her Job as a Diver, but has room too fail and room to be played around by her enemies.

As long as her numbers are kept in check like they have been recently she's pretty much a perfect design to look at for Divers.

Ultîma3 votes

Honestly the first thing they should do is make it so that her Q's missiles aren't each treated as a single-target spell for lifesteal, as it's making her interaction with item 3812 completely ridiculous. Currently the two item pop-off that she gets thanks to that item makes her early powerspike way, way too high compared to other ADCs.

Marothennan3 votes

We all knew she was gonna be a bunch of nonsense when riot said she's inspired by vayne lmao. And since when is vayne high risk anyway? Pressing R on vayne is like switching the game to easy mode

NekoniClaws3 votes

I can't help but resent Kai'Sa a little, because her 0-utility design, her %HP damage and her low-range-all-in playstyle means she's impossible to balance.

She was created in and for this meta- she will thrive. She sells right now.

But one day, it's gonna' change. When the meta stops suiting her and she's neglected a little she is going to be swept under the rug SO HARD she won't see any play. It feels like an absolute waste to make an ADC that's so binary.

ankoanko192 votes

I seriously dont get Kai'sas kit. It's seriously Nunu levels of ''what am i looking at exactly?'' nothing interacts with one another. The R is such a random ability (especially on an ADC) The E is just straight up free stats and the W is a just a Jhin W that doesn't go through and her Q is basically like a mini katarina ult since it can only be used when targets are nearby. It's just such a random kit in general, the abilities dont synergize with eachother other than the passive stacks. I dont think Kaisa can ever be completly balanced without Riot fixing her kit.

RocketRelm10 votes

It's actually fairly cohesive I think, especially when you qualify her as an assassin instead of a marksman. Her W marks people so she can nyoom over to them from a distance with her R, so she can 1v1 duel them. Her Q is, for all intents and purposes, an auto attack that gains bonus damage when your enemy is isolated like Kha Zix, so it fits in with her gameplay pattern of clicking on people in 1v1 duels. Her E is stats often a stealth for gap closing and burst, and/or for getting to a place where her Q can land on what you want it to.

I agree that her kit has severe fundamental problems and that she can't be a healthy design without being dramatically changed, but "cohesion" isn't the problem.

Vlada Cut2 votes

As a main of both Kai'Sa and Camille I do have to say she's one the best carr's atm(or the best in some people's opinion) despite her minor nerfs that were...minor. I do have to admir that item 3812 or even item 3146 are better alternatives than lifesteal such as item 3072. Another thinf you need to know is that item 3812 doesn't fully heal her for all the dmg deals because she has magic damage too, quite more than I thought myself. But I do agree, her healing potential is at it's finest with her evolved Q, and having a big burst is compensating because her kit offers no CC, but has good mobility. Her late game is extremly good and we all know that, IF she reaches to late game or core items that is. Don't forget about her early or mid game, because even though her early isn't good nor bad she can't do much dangerous dmg without evolving something first. But I do have to agree that uer kit is the most versile and adaptive as well, however that doesn't mean she's unstopable nor unstompable. If she doesnt have E ready then she can be easily punished and I doubt you'd dodge cc with her R if the enemies are on full HP(unless you're ahead and it's lare game, but think of a situation in which you are neither ahead or behind). Not only that, if the enemy has a lot of hard CC and once they start throwing all the CC they have then you are most likelynto die due to being unable to use either E or R. Sure you can try burst them a little before dying to such hard CC but that can be used against them - your teammates can pick up the kills cause they used almost all of their spells on you(unless your teammates can't follow up or the enemy has disengage options, again it depends on the given situation). So, Kai'sa can either stomp or get stomped(unless you've been neutral the whole game, doesn't stop you from beauty sleeping or waking up). On the side note, her bursty kit gives her the same burst with on-hit build which other crit carries do. I really don't know what to say about thia one. Oh and yes almost forgot. item 3124 stacks plasma or bolts twice more on Kaisa and Vayne. So...I do respect that they wanted melee champs to use guinsoo's more and they did it successfully with MasterYi but they need to do something with double stacks on those two. Especially on Vayne because it's weird how the item has ap and her kit is ad only(typical Demacian), but it's passive is worth it I guess. Oh and about Kaisa's look, they did their best and I'm fine with it, it's not the Void oranges i am for anyways, but prefferably everything else fromcthat - her kit, gameplay, style, overall design, theme, personality. Her log in screen them sure hit me like a truck cause you can feel all Kai'sa emotions from it, and her overall theme as well. Besides, I don't mind her V neck as I prefferably use Bullet Angel Kai'Sa who doesn't have the same 'issue' as the Original Kai'sa. Hope I was able to help, if not then sorry for not explaining it better for you. Cheers. [slayer-jinx-catface]

VoraciousX2 votes

You know I think her Q actually counts per hit as one hit, which makes healing from Death's Dance/Gunblade on her OP. They could stand to code that at the very least to be a multi-hit ability if that's the case so it gets the healing reduction.

Azadethe1 votes

They reduced that to only the first hit counting as a hit due to its synergy with item 3042

Death's dance is basically spell vamp..... It does the same thing no matter what AD damage source. Same as Gunblade.

º Kindred º2 votes

its not the designer that made her so strong, it was just the balance team overbuffing her instead of just giving her the time that she needed. She defenently was balanced before, until they just straight up overbuffed her.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

I love seeing kai outburst a AP champion

VoraciousX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zfsUVbH5,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-25T23:36:15.215+0000)

I love seeing kai outburst a AP champion

I love seeing Kai'Sa outburst an assassin(Literally can't kill her as Katarina before she kills me late game, unless I get the drop on her when she's at half HP, because then she has to Q me to get all her HP back instead of healing it up AS I'm damaging her).

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

why is she allowed to out trade with autoattacks full crit marksmen without building crit herself?

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

Because she builds a path that takes longer to come online, and has always dealt more damage - on-hit hybrid.

ADCs that build Rageblade usually out-damage those who don't. Crit is a solid form of DPS, but nothing quite matches an on-hit damage champion with a fully-stacked Rageblade, be that champion melee or ranged.

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