Lee sin is OP even though his winrate is low,Brand is underrated because his winrate is high.

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I'd argue Lee is overloaded rather than overpowered, of course...

So should he be buffed because his winrate is low then?

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A champion can be underrated and underpowered at the same time.

Do elaborate.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. Also, neither are strongly correlated to unadjusted winrates. Winrates are effected by pick/ban rates more than they are by either how strong a champion is or if the champion is underrated.

Honestly winrates just confuse me,there are some rules of thumb,but mostly it seems like in a serious conversation(where people know the champion) they just add very little to it.

The best thing to do is really look at pick/ban rates. They have historically correlated much better with how over/underpowered a champion is than winrate and there is no reason to believe that phenomenon will change in the near future.

I agree. Can we nerf fucking thresh yet?

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The choices should have been:

Lee OP because its popular to circlejerk about this

Well I had to appeal to a certain bias of people because these forums are filled with retards,I could've as easily replaced lee with the more obvious,better established le broken(which if you think that she is weak in solo q,I would suggest you get your head tested,but so many people here are so stupid I had to take something...with a more well established op status),the whole point of this thread is to make people face their hypocrisy and stop skipping the fence on winrate,either go against something which is well established to be op,or fucking stop these braindamaged winrate arguments("ashe is actually strong hurr durr,you just need to learn to play it hurr durr,just see her winrate durr hurr,too bad you're not as awesome at seeing the hidden potential of things like me and are just a mindless sheep,durrrrr,hurrr").

Lee actually isn't OP because I actually play the game

He is op,but the player needs to be capable and that doesn't happen much below diamond.

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I don't understand how anybody could call Lee OP when the average boards user hasn't seen a barely sentient Lee in their life, much less a good one.

Well I would guess it's mostly split between being sick of seeing him played in competitive and confirmation bias,even though I suspect even mediocare players can bring out his opness(a plat with 100 lee and 100 pantheon(insert mediocare jungler here) games should probably be overall stronger on lee...I think)

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Lee Sin is played by nearly everyone, those who are good on him and those who are really bad with him, because #LCSBIGPLAYS.

No,It's because #balance(or more accurately,#lackthereofit).

Brand is only really played by his mains and those who are good with him, because he is very underrated

Not playing a weak champion IS NOT underrating him,not picking up an op one because pros aren't playing him is,but thing is pros generally react faster than most people,people tend to forget that if pros don't realize a champion is op yet,it's very unlikely the average player will(and frankly it's downright retarded to expect them to do that,but these forums are filled with swagtalk).

so his winrate is bound to be higher than Lee's. Winrates are terrible way to judge if champion is op or not.

Pretty much,the op champions will always be much more popular which will drag down their winrate.

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lee sin win rate is low because there arent many players who can play the champion good, its mostly a skill based champ and people dont have that much skill to play it really good so i think thats why its win rate is low as for op i totally agree if someone knows how to play lee well he can carry the whole game

Which would in turn mean easy champions have an inflated winrate,and we are back to where we started.

also,care to explain to me why ashe's winrate is higher than that of graves? That stat just tells very little.

His win rate in diamond is under 50% as well and if a diamond player picks up a champion they usually know how to play that champion. And any champion can turn op if you can play them.

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Why do you pick out Brand specifically? His win rate is above 50%, but only barely (51.94% on Lolking)... meanwhile, Heimerdinger, Sejuani, Sion, Katarina, and Malzahar all have over 54% winrates.

First of all 52% is quite a lot above 50%,his winrate is still higher than most champions,he is also often mentioned in the winrate context and that's mostly why I chose him.

But no, as TemporalDonut pointed out, Lee is not OP, his kit is just overloaded. It has way too much utility for the amount of damage it also brings to the table, and it's extremely forgiving. Lee doesn't pay for being out of position the same way Fiddles, Varus, or Brand do.

You just rephrased the term OP here. the moment you have extra strength compared to a champion but no weaknesses(or not meaningful ones) to offset that you become stronger than them by definition,do it to enough champions and you just become OP overall.

I mean seriously what do you think being op means?

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> He doesnt need a nerf. I'd rather see swain/vi/volibear/riven nerfs.

Am so tired of this nonsense,just because there are one or two champions who are clearly in a silly spot themselves(and no,not swain volibear riven) doesn't make lee balanced,as always he is still stronger than 90% of junglers.