Poke support,highly reliant on gold,considered bad in high levels play,has seen 0 competitive play for years.
But she was designed to be mage,so she shouldn't get anything. (/s)
Give me downvotes pls,what does a support main know about the state of supports anyway?
Aeolian Melodies53 votesI'd like Zyra to be strong again.
Mid lane where she belongs.
Paletongue14 votesI play Zyra mid and have very good success with her, imo she just needs some work on her passive and plant Ai because she does wild damage
Knight SoIaire 2 votesshe does a good damage ... but thats exactly why she was gutted
automatic plants do your job ... riot hates that
Vi and Cupcait15 votes
: Why HELLO!
Knight SoIaire 1 votesexactly ... heimer can but zyra cant ... i dont know why
Anidan7 votesProbably because Heimer's entire identity is based around those turrets, whereas Zyra's identity isn't necessarily based on her seedlings.
Also because their budgets are allocated differently. Unless you're in some pretty ridiculous circumstances, Heimer can't do good damage and potentially CC half a team with his ult alone, because if he uses the grenade, he isn't doing great damage, and if he's using his rockets or turret ult then he isn't getting any extra CC while Zyra can plop her ult down in a good position and do both.
I'm not complaining about either champion, but that's just the way it works between those two.
GankLord3 votesExactly and she isn't a support really wish people would stop calling her that.
RiotRiotRepertoir41 votesPoke support,highly reliant on gold,considered bad in high levels play,has seen 0 competitive play for years.
We actually generally agree with this assessment, and I believe we're currently looking into what we may be able to do to help Zyra out. I'm not sure if it's going to come right away, and it's not likely to be a large scale change, but she should get some attention nonetheless.
RottedApples26 votesplease don't nerf her midlane power if you buff her support power.
LankPants45 votesWhen you do help Zyra out there should be a focus on Zyra mid, not Zyra support.
Paletongue29 votesTo be totally honest I wouldn't mind them killing Zyra support in favor of her mid role.
Old Man Teeto4 votesI'd be a bit upset >.>
I liked my anti-dive AP support.
Sorta, a reverse Annie.
Hyrum Graff9 votesI'd be a bit upset >.>
I liked my anti-dive AP support.
Sorta, a reverse Annie.
Just play reverse Annie tho.
Mimaropa6 votesThe passive idea was great. If zyra gets a kill with her passive, she is resurrected.
Doctor Jarvis5 votesLike old Karthus! That was healthy...
ZeichiVos2 votesto be fair, Karthus has a guaranteed nuke on you anywhere on the map if you aren't invulnerable, which is a bit different from one long range skillshot.
S2C2Xd9KOy2 votesI believe she should have her base move speed slightly buffed and have her flat ap scaling increased so rushing Sorc Shoes and Liandry's will be less necessary. I think her mana costs are absolutely fine, so please don't reduce them as a "buff" because thats not what she needs, Im sure you understand that though. If the animation speed on her E was increased _slightly _ along with her flat ap scaling and base movement speed increased by 10-15 that would really make a big difference in her play. My current build path on her is Codex - Guise - Boots - Morello - Liandrys - Sorc shoes as the first three items. I really feel like having her ap scaling increased would allow me to switch out Liandrys, an item I really don't like, for an item like Zhonyas. Her need for Magic Pen due to her scalings makes her weaker than she should be. Her level 1-6 in laning is pretty strong, since the laners are fairly even, but because the other laner can go straight for flat ap and you have to build magic pen items first so that your ap items can do damage puts you at a disadvantage even if you get an early kill or two. 4th, 5th and 6th item right now on her for me is Rylais, Rabadons and Zhonyas, which means she doesn't get damage until I finish Rylais.
I may be completely wrong with what I'm saying because I don't entirely understand the calculations in game, but If I understand as I'm led to believe, then what I'm saying is fairly correct.
TLDR, Zyra would be far, far better off with a slightly buffed base movement speed and flat ap scalings, along with the potential of a very slightly increased animation speed on her E. I feel the resurrection on kill via her passive would be a very, very gimmicky buff.
TheUltimateSpear4 votesHey Repertoir! It's nice to see Zyra's getting some attention.A few suggestions for buffs to her:
How about making her less clunky and slow in her kit across the board? Zyra's Q has a .625 delay which is noticeably longer than other mages, even those with spells similar in function and purpose. Her E's travel speed is pretty slow at 1150. Zyra's ultimate has a delay of 2 seconds for a 1 second knockup at the end, and there's no slow or soft CC or anything like that to keep enemies inside it. Now, maybe not decreasing slowness or delay on ALL her abilities, but it's something to consider, but specifically her Ult and E.
Reducing mana costs. Like others have said, Zyra's mana costs are significantly higher than other mages'. 75-95 on her Q. 70-90 on her E. 100-140 on her ultimate. Reducing her ult's mana costs to 100 at all ranks would be standard, and as for her basic abilities specifically her Q has quite a high mana cost for a basic harass spell. I highly doubt something like, say, 60-80 would break her. Her E's mana cost isn't so bad considering it's power, but it's there to consider as well.
I know this isn't the way Riot likes to buff champions, but Zyra's base stats are bad. Like, REALLY bad. It's not warranted considering her current state. (Which isn't awful, mind you, but somewhat weak) Smallish mana pool- one of the worst armor and health base and growth stats in the game. She's in the slowest class in the game with 325 movespeed.
Now of course you guys might just do Riot things and come up with something that hasn't come to mind to us. (Like the Lissandra heal buff on PBE, for example) We have faith.
Thanks for responding on this thread. But, like others have said, if you have to choose buff Zyra's power as a mid lane mage rather than a support.
SteelStallion5 votesPlease, please, please don't turn her into a pure support champion. She should still be a viable mage after you're through with her changes, possibly even more so.
BlackSunNocturne3 votesWe actually generally agree with this assessment, and I believe we're currently looking into what we may be able to do to help Zyra out. I'm not sure if it's going to come right away, and it's not likely to be a large scale change, but she should get some attention nonetheless.
Since Zyra was designed by CertainlyT to be a Mid-lane Mage, not a support can Riot's rework team should fix her so she's a frigging Mid Lane Mage again and not a Support?
Penta Penguin2 votesWhy does Yi instantly get some stupid dance speed thing after a random request, but Riot can't put ideas up for champions like this every week or so? I was reading a thread about Zyra's passive that had Riot responses a while ago, I feel like the PBE should have had Zyra brainstorming on it weeks ago
LittleBlast8 votesSomething like yi's dance took very little time and effort to code, and if im not mistaken was coded when one rioter had nothing else to do. The Zyra changes would take more time and generally need more people, making it not instantly able to come out.
FistOfSharkiesha3 votesEither make her more support oriented or more mid lane mage oriented. That's the real problem with mage supports. They either sacrifice a ton of utility for their damage (Zyra, Sona, and Karma), or they don't get either without AP (Lulu). Janna is the best example of what a support mage should be. She doesn't do much damage, much like a tank, but has so much utility that it sets her apart from mages. Right now the mage supports are really just mid laners with a shield or short root.
Mage supports are built to scale with AP but never can because they're gold-starved.
Jase1352 votesWhat about Sona? Is she going to be looked at as well seeing as she has the same problems?
manbearswine2 votesWe actually generally agree with this assessment, and I believe we're currently looking into what we may be able to do to help Zyra out. I'm not sure if it's going to come right away, and it's not likely to be a large scale change, but she should get some attention nonetheless.
Can we get a small hint as to what this attention is aimed at?
Specifically is it going to be aimed at her problems(presumably the biggest issue she has currently is the dissonance between how strong she perceived by you(Riot) and how strong she is perceived by the community),or something else(like for example the talk about the changes to her passive/qol buffs)?
KoKoboto3 votesWe actually generally agree with this assessment, and I believe we're currently looking into what we may be able to do to help Zyra out. I'm not sure if it's going to come right away, and it's not likely to be a large scale change, but she should get some attention nonetheless.
PLEASE DON'T FORCE ZYRA TO SUPPORTT!! A lot of champions can play support but you shouldnt force Zyra too pleaseee
AtheosisX16 votesWhat exactly do you think she needs? How about throwing some ideas out there instead of just complaining?
Trundle Bundle7 votesEven in spite of his sarcasm, it's a little short sighted to call this just complaining. OP linked Zyra's problems to a champion that's already getting some spotlight in discussion right now, and identified both gold reliance and a shift in identity. That's substantial in and of itself, and more than likely the feedback Riot wants compared to rapid fire fixes that take shots in the dark on the extent of the resources that Riot sees reasonable to allocate to the problem.
One of the big factors at play here is that bot lane has quite a bit of sustain at the moment at a time when mana is weak, greatly devaluing the power of poke supports.
SpecterVonBaren3 votesNot to mention that all in supports have been the go to thing in bot lane for years now and poke supports can't deal with that.
A Miss Fortune11 votes**One of Zyra's biggest issues right now is mana.**Her mana costs are colossal, for a Mid Laner or a Support.
Deadly Bloom (Q ): 95 Mana Grasping Roots (E): 90 Mana Stranglethorns (R): 140 Mana
Zyra's mana costs are huge. Not only does Zyra have to rush a mana item to prevent her from going out-of-mana, but her mana costs can still be an issue. She isn't necessarily a spamming Mage, but she is extremely reliant on using abilities to even access her plants. In comparison to another popular Mid Laner who is also a Minion Mancer, which is what Zyra is. Azir who is one of the most popular Mid Laners in pro player right now's mana costs are:
Conquering Sands (Q) : 70 Mana Arise (W) : 40 Mana Shifting Sands (E) : 60 Mana Emperor's Divide (R) : 100 Mana
Azir and Zyra are both Minion Mancers, Mages who use others to fight for them. Similar to Malzahar with his Voidlings, they both use others to fight for them for a large amount and on Zyra and Azir's case, most of their power. While Zyra and Azir are both hugely different in their own ways, Azir is the closest champion I feel to Zyra. Both being AP Mid Laners. Azir however, is played more commonly in the LCS and one of the most popular picks. Zyra hasn't been picked since Season 3 I believe.
Zyra is one of the most unreliable Mid Laners. I don't think people realize how easy it is to dodge her abilities. Unreliability isn't something that's easy to hide and forgive on a champion. If they can't hit their abilities, then what's the point of playing them? In Zyra's case, there's almost no reason to ever be hit by her Q or E during the laning phase and against a competent Mid Laner, It can be extremely frustrating as they will always stay out of range which Zyra doesn't have much of in comparison to popular Mid Laners again like Azir or others who are almost entirely different in every way to Zyra like Viktor or Varus. Zyra doesn't have the range to match up for the delays or poor travel times/widths on her abilities.
Rise of the Thorns (Passive) : 2 Second Delay Time + 1900 Travel Time Deadly Bloom (Q) : .625 Second Delay Time Grasping Roots (E) : 1150 Travel Time Stranglethorns (R) : 2 Second Delay Time
These may not seem like much, however Zyra's Q and E are her main damage aside from her plants. To compare how poor Zyra's reliability is and how easy it is to simply walk out of all of Zyra's abilities I want to compare her Q and E to other abilities.
Cassiopeia's Noxious Blast (Q) has a .400 Second Delay Time. Cassiopeia saw competitive play and was actually nerfed not too long ago because of it. Her ability is pretty similar, and the range is pretty similar too. In a target location, after a delay time, the ability activates and does damage to whoever stands in it. Cassiopeia's Q is significantly easier to hit with over a .2 second difference, this may not seem like much but in gaming time it can mean losing lane and feeding or winning lane and getting fed.
Ezrea's Mystic Shot (Q) is a good example of how poor Zyra's E Travel Time is. Ezreal's Q travels at 2000 while Zyra's travels at 1150. **This difference is noticeable and significant. **I apologize for not being able to find a more similar ability on a different champion, though this was the best I got. Ezreal isn't necessarily the best champion in the game, but he is no where near the worst and with his Q he can poke people down hard and make room for an all-in. Zyra doesn't have this luxury, not only is Ezreal's Q significantly higher in range, but it also costs less mana. Zyra cannot afford to constantly miss her abilities or she WILL go out of mana very quickly like I previously stated. Another thing is that Zyra's passive, while having almost the same speed as Ezreal's Q, has a 2 second delay on top of a terrible projectile width. For dealing up to 440 damage at level 18, while being true damage, it is very minor and will barely scratch tanks. Actually most of the time I've killed someone with my passive is due to them simply forgetting. Zyra's passive has long been considered one of the worst passives in the game due to It's unreliability and actually only being relevant when she dies.
As for Zyra's Ultimate, Stranglethorns (R) I think a 2 second delay would simply mean that if you are movement impaired, you get hit by the knockup, if you're not, then you can freely walk out of it without being in danger of being knocked up. A 2 second delay time is significant, especially without any Crowd Control, It's so easy for a person to simply walk out of the knockup. Though I will however say, the damage is instant if they stand in it, but the knockup can be extremely difficult to hit against competent enemies.
Another thing I would like to mention, though I believe this is more of a bug than an internal balance issue, is that her plants are extremely buggy. They will often not focus enemy champions, and if they leave their range they will focus minions if they are nearby. This on top of them have a very small delay after being activated, makes Zyra's plants extremely unreliable.
I apologize for the long post, though I wanted to make a clear statement on my beliefs on why Zyra cannot be viable. In my opinion, her damage is fine and she definitely has the ability to become a strong, balanced champion. Though currently I would in all honesty, consider her one of the worst if not the worst mid laners. Even Kassadin I find stronger simply due to him being more reliable, more mobile, and more tanky.
KoKoboto2 votesI think making her cast time on Q the same as Syndra's would be good for one change
A Miss Fortune2 votesHonestly if they just buffed her reliability on her Q, Zyra's winrate would probably go up significantly. The main issues altogether are that her abilities are too hard to hit and if you miss you can't afford to spam them either.
SantanaTheSlick 7 votesugh sona and zyra are pretty pain in the ass in lane
RedCyclone8 votesSo are Blitzcrank, Thresh and Leona But no one seems to care about them, because they have been used to it for 2 years now
Partholonian3 votesUntil they die instantly.
They're both horribly weak atm, there is not nearly enough potential reward to compensate for the risk inherent in their squishiness (Zyra also has 0 sustain, Sona has some although very inefficient).
chipndip16 votesDifference is the following:
Zyra is extremely high damage. The only thing warranting her being a mage/support is that she has a snare that runs through minions for holding people still.
Sona doesn't have Zyra's range, damage, or frequency of hard cc. She's supposed to have more utility in heals, shields, buffs, and debuffs.
Problem with Sona is that she gets little from being utility, so she's forced to build glass cannon. To boot, she doesn't hit as hard as other mages anyway, so she's stuck being lack-luster at 2 things as a support/mage. Zyra's issue is that all she is is damage. Way squishy. Way slow. Lousy passive. Barely any peel. Nothing but damage. She's a mage/support, but she might as well just be rebalanced as a pure mage because right now her supporting is nothing but mid laner damage in the wrong lane. So they're both low tier poke supports, but the logic behind their problems are moderately varied. Still, both are out-shined by tanky supports.
Mao ZeDongkey5 votesAs someone who has 40-50+ games as Zyra mid, the only problem I have with her is MS. Other than that I have had no issues with mana or power.
Personally I almost never see zyra support simply because there are better options, not because she is UP.
Tomatosx3 votesThey need to fix the plant AI.
Hatless Casual5 votesOnly thing is she's meant to be a mid laner..... not a support. I wish people would stop using solo laners as supports just for their ult/passive.
manbearswine3 votes[{quoted}](name=Hatless Casual,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TJLGj0oL,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2015-08-17T05:44:29.598+0000)
Only thing is she's meant to be a mid laner..... not a support. I wish people would stop using solo laners as supports just for their ult/passive.
Yes I mean if people keep doing that,we actually might see something which isn't thresh in a game.
Variety is horrible,I agree.
Hatless Casual2 votesThe thing is, the reason you only see the same supports is because people keep taking Annie or Zyra or other mid laners bot lane. There are plenty of supports to choose from, Thresh is the current flavor of the month until he's eventually nerfed to the ground.
manbearswine3 votes[{quoted}](name=Hatless Casual,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TJLGj0oL,comment-id=001e00000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T07:41:23.493+0000)
The thing is, the reason you only see the same supports is because people keep taking Annie or Zyra or other mid laners bot lane.
Huh? Thresh is a mid laner? Janna is a mid laner? Blitz is a midlaner? Cause these are the most popular supports right now(according to champion.gg,I'm guessing some differences in the lower elos). Why would mid laners going bot lane even reduce variety to begin with? Not only is this just false,it also makes no sense whatsoever.
There are plenty of supports to choose from,
Not as many as there are mid laners,or top laners,or junglers.
Thresh is the current flavor of the month until he's eventually nerfed to the ground.
Thresh is the current flavor since release/flavor of the years/flavor of the game,he is favored by riot,if he is ever nerfed too hard he will be buffed a split second after.
S2C2Xd9KOy4 votesI love Zyra to death (not sure how anyone would guess) but I agree, I play her mid and she puts in work in lower levels but once I play her above plat, her mobility really becomes and issue and the slowness of her E just makes it so easy to dodge. She has really massive AOE damage late game. If you hit 3 enemies with QWWER thats gonna chunk them for probably over half their health and if your team is slightly coordinated you should win that fight.
But the only way you can make that happen is by farming incredibly well (literally afk farming in lane. You can't afford to roam because of gold efficiency and you're so slow before boots). You also need to build 2 magic pen items and a morello before you even touch zhonyas/rylais/rabadons (for a mid lane build).
Now, when you play her support and take away most of her gold and xp because its a shared lane and your adc obviously gets 99% of the farm, theres a slight issue. Unless you and your adc are coordinated, your impact is done. You have to be very aggressive and make very few mistakes and honestly Zyra's support build can't afford to be _that _support oriented because she needs her magic pen to make any impact (imo).
TL;DR: Playing Zyra is not incredibly hard, but she has a skill cap. Her build variations somewhat hurt her and you have to be playing very on point to get anywhere with her. If you fall behind or make one misplay that can completely lose your lane for you (mid) and you have to be very careful with your damage when playing support to ensure you don't take every kill.
I think she deserves some sort of buff, just to make her less of a gamble when playing her and make her more reliable, and please give her like 10-15 more movement speed because damn the bitch is slow af.
FingerFlavored3 votesNothing wrong with zyra. Just get better on using her.
ShadowParker9 votesShe's not bad, she just lacks when it comes down to MS and passive+Plant AI. Her skills are fine though.
Saying "Just get better on using her", is a pretty snarky remark.
Zavern3 votesWhen Zyra first came out on the PBE, she was so freaking fun. I was able to use her Seeds for wards against the enemy jungler and use her plants in lane for defense and offense, but now she is only useful for her ultimate's knockup and her root.
1000angrybees2 votesYou forgot slow as shit with barely any means of escape. Also, pretty gated by mana.
RoyaiChaos6 votesZyra shouldn't have to escape. Her range is decent and her kit is filled wit cc.
Aeolian Melodies1 votesZyra's biggest problem is that being a support who can deal decent damage with literally no offensive item lost its flavor when supports were given better income and the ward bitch playstyle was killed by Riot. Right now why would she be played over Morgana whose snare lasts longer and who is a lot bulkier, or over Annie who does the "I'll ult and then you guys wombo kill them" more easily?
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TJLGj0oL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-08-16T20:39:04.766+0000)
Zyra's biggest problem is that being a support who can deal decent damage with literally no offensive item lost its flavor when supports were given better income and the ward bitch playstyle was killed by Riot. Right now why would she be played over Morgana whose snare lasts longer and who is a lot bulkier, or over Annie who does the "I'll ult and then you guys wombo kill them" more easily?
That and the nerfs,yes.
So uh,shouldn't we do something about champions who are in a bad spot?