Maybe it's time to realize how reliant this champion is on her dedicated playerbase?
There was no reason to be so careful with her buffs,otherwise we will keep seeing the same shit till the end of time,as riot only takes risks with the champions they like(like ahri,and her insta dfg compensation),and leave everyone else to rot.
Vekkna23 votesIt's not a buff at all, and the plant AI is still not working as it should per CertainlyT. Plants are supposed to prioritize champs a plant has recently attacked over minions in any circumstance (unless Zyra AAs a minion). They do not do this, and they seemingly drop target champs at random in favor of the nearest minion.
It's not a buff. It's not working as stated by Riot, and they won't respond to any posts on the topic here, in the patch notes comments, or over on Reddit. It's infuriating.
That said, I'm happy that the community reaction to the alleged Zyra "buff" is muted. I like having a champ I can play reliably and not have to share her with people riding the "buff bandwagon" who will feed all game. After the "massive Teemo buff of 2015," his play rate spiked, and he actually started getting a lot of chicken-little bans. Despite it actually being an eviscerating nerf instead of a buff.
manbearswine4 votesIt's not a buff at all, and the plant AI is still not working as it should per CertainlyT. Plants are supposed to prioritize champs a plant has recently attacked over minions in any circumstance (unless Zyra AAs a minion). They do not do this, and they seemingly drop target champs at random in favor of the nearest minion.
They stopped afking,it is a notable buff,and I'm guessing also the reason behind her mid winrate increase.
It's not a buff. It's not working as stated by Riot, and they won't respond to any posts on the topic here, in the patch notes comments, or over on Reddit. It's infuriating.
They weren't supposed to priortize champions,they mostly aimed at fixing plants going afk as they used to,and they achieved that.
That said, I'm happy that the community reaction to the alleged Zyra "buff" is muted.
It's muted because riot did a VERY good job at destroying her playerbase,even I don't play her anymore,and I played her since late s2.
I like having a champ I can play reliably and not have to share her with people riding the "buff bandwagon" who will feed all game. After the "massive Teemo buff of 2015," his play rate spiked, and he actually started getting a lot of chicken-little bans. Despite it actually being an eviscerating nerf instead of a buff.
Is it really so hard for the lower elo to just take a humility pill and realize that they just don't play the game at a level that makes them understand what makes a champion good or bad? you don't want to take my word that she is shit,that's fine,how about the word of high elo support mains? the word of pros? no?
God these boards are hopeless,it's just a place for low elo players to boost their e-peen by boasting on how they do well on champs who are shit at higher levels of play.
Vekkna8 votesThey weren't supposed to priortize champions,they mostly aimed at fixing plants going afk as they used to,and they achieved that.
Per the plant priority list from CertainlyT, champs recently attacked by ANY plant are supposed to be priority over minions in any scenario other than Zyra using AA on a minion. Here's his actual quote:
**Zyra's plant logic will not be that much different. Here's the actual logic for those curious:
Is it really so hard for the lower elo to just take a humility pill and realize that they just don't play the game at a level that makes them understand what makes a champion good or bad?
It's pretty clear that you're attacking a straw man. I didn't say I was good or that I'm an expert or that anyone should kiss my ass and worship the ground I walk on. Apparently that's something reserved for Plat 2 players. So wash the sand out of your vadge and unclench your butthole, ffs.
From my post, which you quoted, I merely stated that I like being able to play my champ. THE HORROR! THE ARROGANCE! THE AUDICITY! That completely innocuous, nonthreatening, utterly humble statement makes perfect sense against the backdrop of Riot's recent buffs to Darius, Skarner, Garen, and Fiora. Or the ban rates on devourer junglers. Or the spike in pick rate after buffs on Lux, Leblanc, Lee Sin, etc.
FYI, there's no skill requirement on being happy my favorite champ isn't 100% pick/ban FOTM overnight. Frankly I don't care whether she's "good or bad" in her current state. I couldn't give one flying crap about the opinion you formed after playing 5 ranked games on Zyra this season. I have fun playing her, I'm climbing with her, and I'm relieved that I can still do that.
manbearswine1 votesPer the plant priority list from CertainlyT, champs recently attacked by ANY plant are supposed to be priority over minions in any scenario other than Zyra using AA on a minion. Here's his actual quote:
**Zyra's plant logic will not be that much different. Here's the actual logic for those curious:
- Units that have taunted the plant (e.g., Shen), whatever their range.. they will just stare at an out of range unit while taunted
- Champs Zyra has auto-attacked in the last 3 seconds (prioritizing most recently attacked)
- Champs that have recently been attacked by any plant (prioritizing nearest)
- Champs within 350 units of the plant -- for reference, 350 is the size of Lee Sin's E1 or Evelynn's R (prioritizing closest)
- Non-champs Zyra has AA'd (prioritizing most recently attacked)
- Any unit in range (prioritizing closest)**
It's pretty clear that you're attacking a straw man. I didn't say I was good or that I'm an expert or that anyone should kiss my ass and worship the ground I walk on. Apparently that's something reserved for Plat 2 players. So wash the sand out of your vadge and unclench your butthole, ffs.
Nah I'm diamond,just couldn't be bothered to get it again on this account...yet...
From my post, which you quoted, I merely stated that I like being able to play my champ. THE HORROR! THE ARROGANCE! THE AUDICITY! That completely innocuous, nonthreatening, utterly humble statement makes perfect sense against the backdrop of Riot's recent buffs to Darius, Skarner, Garen, and Fiora. Or the ban rates on devourer junglers. Or the spike in pick rate after buffs on Lux, Leblanc, Lee Sin, etc.
Just because you're too stupid to understand what you are saying doesn't mean everyone is. You are implying that since the champion works for you she shouldn't be buffed,and you know damn well that was what you were going for,now you are just playing stupid,which apparently isn't very hard for you.
FYI, there's no skill requirement on being happy my favorite champ isn't 100% pick/ban FOTM overnight.
Implying zyra can reach that status without massive buffs.
Frankly I don't care whether she's "good or bad" in her current state. I couldn't give one flying crap about the opinion you formed after playing 5 ranked games on Zyra this season. I have fun playing her, I'm climbing with her, and I'm relieved that I can still do that.
So I play normal draft against diamonds instead,I guess I need to play silver ranked to be in touch with things,right?
Vekkna8 votesYou are implying that since the champion works for you she shouldn't be buffed,and you know damn well that was what you were going for,now you are just playing stupid,which apparently isn't very hard for you.
By "implying" you mean "I'm going to make some shit up that you didn't say and pretend you said it to excuse the fact that I behave like a feral chimp."
I didn't imply anything that I didn't say. I prefer having a weaker champion I can play over a champion that is buffed into a high ban rate. Given the recent pattern of overbuffing and a ban spike, I'm relieved that hasn't happened with Zyra.
Implying zyra can reach that status without massive buffs.
Again, I'm not implying anything. I clearly articulated a rational concern that buffing Zyra could snowball into massive buffs that blacklist her from the game. It's like you live in a world where Ekko, Leblanc, Katarina, Elise, Darius, Garen, Skarner, Morde, Sejuani, Shyvana, etc just never happened.
I'll keep repeating myself to hopefully overcome your reading comprehension deficiency. I would rather have a weak niche champ than see my favorite champ with a 40-80% ban rate that lingers long after hotfixes and nerfs.
And just to make it super duper extra clear for you, I would also like buffs that are reasonable, incremental, and balanced. I would love to continue climbing without any worry that my champ could become a handicap. That would be awesome. Unfortunately, there are lots of reasons to worry, which is why I'm glad they're not "taking risks" with her.
P.S. You're not altogether unpleasant when you're not being an irrational dick. Just admit that you misread something and move on.
manbearswine3 votesBy "implying" you mean "I'm going to make some shit up that you didn't say and pretend you said it to excuse the fact that I behave like a feral chimp."
I didn't imply anything that I didn't say. I prefer having a weaker champion I can play over a champion that is buffed into a high ban rate. Given the recent pattern of overbuffing and a ban spike, I'm relieved that hasn't happened with Zyra.
Again, I'm not implying anything. I clearly articulated a rational concern that buffing Zyra could snowball into massive buffs that blacklist her from the game. It's like you live in a world where Ekko, Leblanc, Katarina, Elise, Darius, Garen, Skarner, Morde, Sejuani, Shyvana, etc just never happened.
I'll keep repeating myself to hopefully overcome your reading comprehension deficiency. I would rather have a weak niche champ than see my favorite champ with a 40-80% ban rate that lingers long after hotfixes and nerfs.
And just to make it super duper extra clear for you, I would also like buffs that are reasonable, incremental, and balanced. I would love to continue climbing without any worry that my champ could become a handicap. That would be awesome. Unfortunately, there are lots of reasons to worry.
Ok fine,I'll admit,my bad,I forgot people aren't as familiar with her scenario as I am.
She has very little potential to see competitive play,that alone is enough to mean a scenario where she is high pick/ban is unlikely,if you are familiar with her history,the last time she was nerfed(when she dominated at worlds) her ban rate was about 1%(pickrate at around 30% though) she is simply not the champion to get banned unless insanely overpowered.
The issue is that the "let's take things slowly" approach is simply not working for her,riot is doing a very poor job at assessing her power and it has been consistently getting us nowhere(past two years),frankly at this point I would dare say(even if I'm heavily biased) just to heavily buff her until people see her as strong,if that ends in a permaban status for a patch I think it's a risk worth taking,as you can see they once again feared her latest buff would be too much yet they once again failed to achieve anything.
After her last nerf this is basically a short history of her past 2 years: Well let's see where the nerfs put her->waits a bunch of months,proves to be a non factor in ogn which was played at 3.13 Claimed annie for overshadowing her(lol)->annie is nerfed,zyra nowhere to be seen Claimed spellthief is too weak(which it was)->spellthief is buffed,zyra is nowhere to seen Claimed assassins are too mobile so she shouldn't be strong in that meta->jungle tanks become meta,zyra nowhere to be seen. Alright maybe zyra is on the weak size->get's heavy itemization buffs(lyandries in particular),zyra nowhere to be seen. Okay maybe mage supports need a bit of help->release overpowered zekes(to the point tanks build it as core),zyra nowhere to be seen. Okay maybe let's improve her plant ai->zyra nowhere to be seen.
How long is thing going to take? When ahri lost dfg they immediatly jumped and (over)compensated her for it,how long are we going to let zyra rot? It's worse than that,remember the cassiopeia "followup"? It's very possible they will just call their job done before they even achieved anything,they clearly have trouble assessing her power and It's about damn time bigger risks be taken,especially if they could afford them with darius/skarner/ahri/etc.
Wheatloaf2 votesMalzahar and Zyra, forever with terribly distracted companions.
Birefringence4 votesMaybe it's time to realize how reliant this champion is on her dedicated playerbase?
There was no reason to be so careful with her buffs,otherwise we will keep seeing the same shit till the end of time,as riot only takes risks with the champions they like(like ahri,and her insta dfg compensation),and leave everyone else to rot.
As a support main, I can say this with confidence. Get used to it.
Sightless662 votesThat certainly isn't very impressive. Given how strongly they sold the Ai changes, I was expecting a bit more.
Deep Terror Nami2 votesPeople will try out a champion just because it gets buffs. Of course the overall win rate will go down when a bunch of inexperience players jump in all at once thinking some small changes will make up for their lack of skill with her.
manbearswine2 votes[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-18T15:03:52.754+0000)
People will try out a champion just because it gets buffs. Of course the overall win rate will go down when a bunch of inexperience players jump in all at once thinking some small changes will make up for their lack of skill with her.
And you know what the funniest thing is?
Even with those "people trying out a champion" she has the highest average games per player of all other supports,she only sort of survives because her playerbase is much more experienced than that of other supports,even with new players trying her out.
Vekkna2 votesThe win rate curve by experience is pretty steep on her for support. The stats for mid right now are pretty baffling, but I think that's probably related to sample size. It doesn't make a lot of sense outside of old mains coming back to her or something.
Sire Hippington2 votesgarren got nerfed and his winrate got up, the samplesize for this patch right now still isn't big enough i guess
MealReadytoEat2 votesKeep in mind this is just one day of stats too, its quite likely her win and play rates will go up significantly over the course of the week.
A Miss Fortune2 votesYeah, I think just touching her plant AI (which STILL don't work) isn't going to solve her problem. Her problem is that she's so unreliable and extremely unforgiving for being unreliable. Playing Zyra against a competent opponent is frustrating, because if they were competent they could just walk out of pretty much all of your abilities. It's pretty sad that people say Veigar is unreliable but forgot about Zyra.
YossarianSensei2 votesShe's like the mage version of Darius I'm not surprised Riot's taking baby steps, I mean I'm pretty sure she's a CertainlyT champ too.
I don't think many people remember the nightmare she was on release.
manbearswine2 votesShe's like the mage version of Darius I'm not surprised Riot's taking baby steps,
Yes,her skillshot based nature completely lacks counterplay,and her being a tank makes her insanely hard to punish. Wait...
Sounds to me like you are trying to fit her into a mold she has nothing to do with,her skillshots are very avoidable,and her plants don't prioritize champions,and she is very easy to punish.
I mean I'm pretty sure she's a CertainlyT champ too.
Nope,she's a morrelo champion.
I don't think many people remember the nightmare she was on release.
I think we are all past the point of obsessing with releases,especially with the latest skarner.
YossarianSensei1 votes"Skribbles was Zyra's first Creative Designer, CertainlyT was the final Designer, although Morello, Xypherous, and Coronach all had a piece of Zyra's development [1]."
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra/SkinsTrivia
The comparison was she makes up for her mediocre range and immobility with absurd amounts of damage. You know how fun those champs are. 
manbearswine2 votes"Skribbles was Zyra's first Creative Designer, CertainlyT was the final Designer, although Morello, Xypherous, and Coronach all had a piece of Zyra's development [1]."
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra/SkinsTrivia
The comparison was she makes up for her mediocre range and immobility with absurd amounts of damage. You know how fun those champs are.
See what's fun about annie is her point and click lockdown and burst,something zyra does not have,a better comparison would be viktor,or maybe syndra prior to her ult.
You're just grasping at straws here,you want to make zyra sound toxic but you just can't,so you compare her to champions she has nothing to do with.
Abyssphere3 votes"Skribbles was Zyra's first Creative Designer, CertainlyT was the final Designer, although Morello, Xypherous, and Coronach all had a piece of Zyra's development [1]."
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra/SkinsTrivia
The comparison was she makes up for her mediocre range and immobility with absurd amounts of damage. You know how fun those champs are.
You basically just said every immobile mage that doesn't have ridiculous range is horrible to play against. Annie can't be outplayed, much like Darius, but Zyra can. The Darius comparison for Zyra is completely borne out of the CertainlyT influence - they have virtually nothing in common outside of being immobile.
Conturbatio2 votesThat wasn't even a buff, just a bug fix to make her plants WORK AS INTENDED. Riot needs to buff her garbage base stats, especially her 325 movement since she never builds Luden's Echo.
Koldheartedjsp1 votesThat wasn't even a buff, just a bug fix to make her plants WORK AS INTENDED. Riot needs to buff her garbage base stats, especially her 325 movement since she never builds Luden's Echo.
a buff fix is a buff or a nerf if it ends up helping or hurting a champion
Conturbatio2 votesThere is no such thing as "buff fix" since it makes literally 0 sense.
I tried Zyra mid with her upgraded AI system. Almost the same, when the target leaves the plant's range and comes near it again it won't even hurt them. Look at Heimerdinger's turrets, they immediately start attacking nearby enemy champions whenever one is in range without the need of their owner's command.
I am a Witch4 votesI think comparing Zyra's plants to Heimer's turrets is a good way to look at it. While he's very reliant on those for laning, his abilities also do crazy damage if you get hit by them. Zyra, on the other hand, needs to use a spell and hit a seed (putting the ability on cooldown) to make a plant. If Zyra's abilities miss, she loses a big chunk of her damage. Her plants also die very easily in comparison to Heimer's turrents, do less damage, have awkward target priority, don't attack structures, and take tower priority over minions. One of her plants applies a slow (in a short range) and the other has quite a big range. Because there's a max of two seeds available (at full ammo), an ideal combo from nothing is E-W (in path)-Q-W-R. So, all her abilities go on cooldown. I think because she's so reliant on skillshots and using her abilities to make the plants, she could use reduced cooldowns and maybe a higher ammo maximum (3?). Maybe plants should attack structures? The recent fix to her kit didn't change much from what she was before. In a game today, plants changed targets, paused, or prioritized incorrectly on a few occasions.
LaserDeathBlade2 votesWhat's with the sudden interest in Zyra?
I for one don't miss "support" Zyras topping damage charts
manbearswine1 votesWhat's with the sudden interest in Zyra?
I for one don't miss "support" Zyras topping damage charts
Because if we listened to people like you we would only see thresh vs thresh every game.
LaserDeathBlade1 votesThresh vs Thresh sounds a lot more fun than Zyra vs Sona
There's a reason Riot has their set of favored champs
manbearswine3 votesThresh vs Thresh sounds a lot more fun than Zyra vs Sona
Yes hyper forgiving hyper punishing trash sure is fun.
There's a reason Riot has their set of favored champs
Because they make #lcsbigplays,enjoy choking on fizz and le blanc as well.
LaserDeathBlade2 votesHate on Thresh all you like, but its obvious Riot has statistical evidence that he's both not too overbearing, and entertaining enough to deserve to stay strong across so many metas or else they would have done something significant already.
The same can't be said for Zyra
manbearswine3 votesHate on Thresh all you like, but its obvious Riot has statistical evidence that he's both not too overbearing,
Actually they clearly have evidence that he is in fact overbearing.
and entertaining enough to deserve to stay strong across so many metas
He's not entertaing at all,he is cheap at the moment,throwing a lantern to vi isn't a play,it's nautsating,it's only entertaining for newer players/not players at all who watch the competitive scene,his get out of jail free card is exceptionally cheap for everyone else.
or else they would have done something significant already.
Tell that to lee sin. They are just willing to sacrifice gameplay for #lcsbigplays,and you are just encouraging them with your of lack of understanding.
The same can't be said for Zyra
Sure it can.
You are just completely sucking riots ass here,"riot does so ergo it must be great",want to ask cassiopeia players how well they did with her? Want to ask veteran players how stale the thresh meta is? How obnoxious their fizz/yasuo is? How much we all love their kalista?
Riot fails,and does so a lot(they do get some things right),the "riot did it so it must be good" is retarded,remember when kass was permabanned for half a year? I guess they let him do that because he was fine and healthy,right?
LaserDeathBlade1 votesThe concept your missing is that I doubt the point of balance changes and champion reworks is to make the small population of players who play a particular unpopular champion happy.
Put yourself in Riot's shoes, if you were trying to draw in as many players as possible, are you going to let pre-nerf Veigar's instant cast event-horizon completely shit on LC$ champs like LB/Lee Sin to satisfy like the 10 players who play Veigar, or are you gunna nerf his ass so that the LC$ champions can shine? Why do you think some champs stay nerfed for good while Lee Sin keeps getting patched back in?
By the same logic, yeah it sucks ass if your favorite champ like Zyra doesn't line up with Riot's balance schedule and that you have a personal vendetta against Thresh, but Riot's favorite champs are always going to be the ones that are the most fun for the most players.
manbearswine1 votesThe concept your missing is that I doubt the point of balance changes and champion reworks is to make the small population of players who play a particular unpopular champion happy.
Except that it is the point,that and to draw new players to these champions,but the biggest focus is always on the playerbase,there are solid reasons for that:
A game is meant to be played,and you want there to be something for as many people as possible,that's why you don't hit the identity of champions when you rework them(unless the identity itself is the problem,which it isn't with zyra,it is with kalista/fizz/yasuo/lee/etc),and that's why you want to build on what already attracted people to that champion,so that new players who like such mechanics will be attracted to them.
Put yourself in Riot's shoes, if you were trying to draw in as many players as possible, are you going to let pre-nerf Veigar's instant cast event-horizon completely shit on LC$ champs like LB/Lee Sin to satisfy like the 10 players who play Veigar, or are you gunna nerf his ass so that the LC$ champions can shine?
Are you really that dense? Do you know how many champions those #lcsshitheads shove out? veigar is just the tip of the iceberg,and they actually understand that,that's the very reason they let annie be,to shut down #lcsbigtrashes,even if she herself isn't particularly healthy.
Why do you think some champs stay nerfed for good while Lee Sin keeps getting patched back in?
Cause riot priotizes the competitive scene over gameplay,also some people got addicted to a broken playstyle.
By the same logic, yeah it sucks ass if your favorite champ like Zyra doesn't line up with Riot's balance schedule and that you have a personal vendetta against Thresh, but Riot's favorite champs are always going to be the ones that are the most fun for the most players.
Except not,people have been crying about assassins for years,for example,and "nerf thresh" threads consistently get upvoted.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesThe concept your missing is that I doubt the point of balance changes and champion reworks is to make the small population of players who play a particular unpopular champion happy.
Put yourself in Riot's shoes, if you were trying to draw in as many players as possible, are you going to let pre-nerf Veigar's instant cast event-horizon completely shit on LC$ champs like LB/Lee Sin to satisfy like the 10 players who play Veigar, or are you gunna nerf his ass so that the LC$ champions can shine? Why do you think some champs stay nerfed for good while Lee Sin keeps getting patched back in?
By the same logic, yeah it sucks ass if your favorite champ like Zyra doesn't line up with Riot's balance schedule and that you have a personal vendetta against Thresh, but Riot's favorite champs are always going to be the ones that are the most fun for the most players.
You're just trolling and being the most rude you could possibly be to make people angry.
Stop trolling this forum is for discussion.
Your last sentence in particular is just retarded: everyone bitched about Fizz/Yasuo/Zed and they nerfed them even if they should be fun for the average player.
Zed is shit tier at the moment, and thank God that garbage is.
Rinky Dinky2 votesIncorrect.
Ahri happened because the community claimed she would be garbage.
Same with Skarner, Garen, Mordekaiser, and even Darius
S2C2Xd9KOy2 votesI play Zyra mid, not support.
Zyra just has bad scaling. The AI on her plants shouldn't even be considered a buff. It should be considered Riot fixing a champion a bit. Yes its a buff technically but making her AI better is more of a fix than anything.... I love Zyra and I dont feel she's that bad. There are so many things you could do to actually buff her.
I love Zyra and she can be bursty as fuck but and just solo 3 enemies with decent kiting and combo'ing but in order to get to that point you have to be pretty lucky in laning phase and get ahead.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Beth Greene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-09-19T20:11:56.858+0000)
I play Zyra mid, not support.
Zyra just has bad scaling.
Her scaling is fine,she doesn't need more damage,definitely not in the lategame.
The AI on her plants shouldn't even be considered a buff. It should be considered Riot fixing a champion a bit. Yes its a buff technically but making her AI better is more of a fix than anything....
Yes it should've been done anyway but you can't just say something like "this isn't a buff",a buff makes a champion stronger,this definitely made zyra stronger.
I love Zyra and I dont feel she's that bad. There are so many things you could do to actually buff her.
Yes well I believe you,but the higher in elo you go the less people will agree with you,and the worse zyra is considered. So maybe instead one should ask himself as why that is,and possibly direct buffs at that-how to make her better in higher elos without making her overbearing in the lower ones.
- Raise the missile speed on her E or make it slightly wider.
- Give her 10 movement speed.
- Increase the cast range of her ultimate slightly or make the knockup faster.
- Give her slightly better scaling on her abilities.
- Make her animation times slightly slower.
Yes these are all solid buffs,but will these really help with the issue at hand? are these really aimed more at higher elos than the lower ones?
- Change her goddamn passive. It has a lot of utility sure, but if you hit something. Its so easy to dodge and if someone gets away with 90 hp after killing you do you REALLY think they're thinking "Pfft, she would never go for me. I dont have to dodge at all." Its decent in team fights because you can kind of shoot it through enemies to get assists but if thats all it brings to the table then damn dude. It would be soon much better if the time duration between dying and being able to actually shoot the passive was reduced. It would remove a lot of counterplay and could still be dodged. They could even give her a passive similar to Cass where her AP and CDR or move speed or something scales with like how many times her plant hits an enemy champion.
Ok I hated this with ashe,and I hate it with talon,and I hate this with zyra. Just because other champions have strong passives,doesn't mean EVERYONE has to get one,do you really want more power in her passive? wouldn't you rather place it in her active kit? I think her current passive fits well with how she works a lot of times->throw your entire kit->get facerolled by assassins->use passive.
I love Zyra and she can be bursty as fuck but and just solo 3 enemies with decent kiting and combo'ing but in order to get to that point you have to be pretty lucky in laning phase and get ahead.
So you think she should do so reliably? Doesn't that sound "a bit" op too you?
S2C2Xd9KOy1 votesI already posted on a different thread that I wouldn't even be mad if her passive was changed to just give her like 10-15 movement speed and then buff one of her abilities.
To your last comment: She's only bursty and actually strong WHEN she gets ahead. If she gets put really far behind she;s out. Even giving one kill to her lane opponent could just shut her out of lane phase. She's not Yasuo where IE Shiv is full build.
"Yes well I believe you,but the higher in elo you go the less people will agree with you,and the worse zyra is considered. So maybe instead one should ask himself as why that is,and possibly direct buffs at that-how to make her better in higher elos without making her overbearing in the lower ones."
In my honest opinion nothing is really overpowered in low elo like bronze-silver because honestly anything could be probably considered broken in bronze. If someone plays only Draven and actually gets decent and theyre bronze the enemy will say he's overpowered. They will say anything they lose to is overpowered... I have a smurf in bronze. Know how many times I've heard Zyra is broken on that account? Too many. I understand that balance in low elo is important but I feel if in order to make Zyra good in like Plat+ if you have to break her in low elo, fine. I really feel though that if they buffed her enough to make her viable in high elo, low elo players wouldnt be able to play her at a level that would make it unfair. Just like bronze Zed players have no clue how to play Zed.
If you give her any of the buffs I suggested, especially like faster Missile speed on E or faster animations it would give her way more counterplay. There are times where you get ganked and just immediately die because her animations are so long. If you had lower animation times you could snare one and WQ the other for the slow and maybe from there depending on your HP, mana and summoners you can kill one or both.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Beth Greene,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2015-09-19T21:22:12.510+0000)
To your last comment: She's only bursty and actually strong WHEN she gets ahead. If she gets put really far behind she;s out. Even giving one kill to her lane opponent could just shut her out of lane phase. She's not Yasuo where IE Shiv is full build.
This is kind of why mid zyra stopped being the focus,riot just doesn't know how to get her to work mid,as this problem isn't as bad in her support role.
"Yes well I believe you,but the higher in elo you go the less people will agree with you,and the worse zyra is considered. So maybe instead one should ask himself as why that is,and possibly direct buffs at that-how to make her better in higher elos without making her overbearing in the lower ones."
In my honest opinion nothing is really overpowered in low elo like bronze-silver because honestly anything could be probably considered broken in bronze.If someone plays only Draven and actually gets decent and theyre bronze the enemy will say he's overpowered. They will say anything they lose to is overpowered... I have a smurf in bronze. Know how many times I've heard Zyra is broken on that account? Too many.
I agree with you,but riot doesn't,if her winrate crosses a certain number she will be considered op.
I understand that balance in low elo is important but I feel if in order to make Zyra good in like Plat+ if you have to break her in low elo, fine. I really feel though that if they buffed her enough to make her viable in high elo, low elo players wouldnt be able to play her at a level that would make it unfair. Just like bronze Zed players have no clue how to play Zed.
See zyra's kit is simpler to use,and her weaknesses are more obscure. Note that the next part will sound like sarcasm,it isn't: See zyra is very immobile,and very squishy,she is very easy to outrotate or all in,on top of of course to gank,this means people need to be aware of what she is capable of to be successful against her,in contrast zed simply has no weaknesses,so you really don't need to adapt,counterpick maybe,but adapt your gameplay? not at all.
If you give her any of the buffs I suggested, especially like faster Missile speed on E or faster animations it would give her way more counterplay. There are times where you get ganked and just immediately die because her animations are so long. If you had lower animation times you could snare one and WQ the other for the slow and maybe from there depending on your HP, mana and summoners you can kill one or both.
See I don't feel zyra(or anyone for that matter),should deal with ganks by killing both her enemy laner and the jungler 2v1,unless scary fed that is.
Earl Eulrich1 votesas Zyra still is not in need of any buffs for a competent player - i don´t see how that will affect her "dedicated playerbase". Anyone that really understands how to play Zyra would rather not see her touched, as the only thing she´d truly need is a nerf to her ult-radius.
manbearswine2 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-18T15:16:23.189+0000)
as Zyra still is not in need of any buffs for a competent player -
And why is that exactly?
i don´t see how that will affect her "dedicated playerbase". Anyone that really understands how to play Zyra would rather not see her touched, as the only thing she´d truly need is a nerf to her ult-radius.
Except that pros won't touch her,high elo support mains call her shit,but sure,let's go with what you say,that would lead us to a thresh every game,and in the end of the day,isn't that what we all really want?
Vekkna4 votesAbout half of the champ pool sees zero or virtually zero pro play. Are you suggesting that every champ that's not in pro games needs to be buffed straight into LCS?
NoobShotBG2 voteshigh elo support mains call her shit
Good, Zyra should be a shit support, that's not what her role's meant to be.
She needs buffs to her mid lane mage role. For all I care she can be 100% unviable as a support, as long as she's playable mid.
A little Peepo1 votesTbh zyra is very stale, her build is pretty much the same no matter what, athenes, rylais and liandries, then death cap and zonyas. It's hard to say but zyra isn't crap by any means she just has a rougher time getting fed than someone like annie or ahri per say. Her base damages are really low for a mage and doesn't have the mobility that someone like lissandra has. I would have preferred to see some mana buffs rather than the plant AI like they did to syndra.
Once zyra has her items she can wreck havoc in a 1v1 and burst the enemy team during team fights but then again it takes a lot more time to get there because you are simply zyra and everyone knows zyra can't have nice things since she simply has too much already.
Possible solution: remove the passive cdr on W and lower her mana costs and possibly lower her Q damage to 200 while buffing her ap ratio to .75 and remove the vision it gives on her seeds to tone down her support role and emphasize on her mage role as she was intended. That's my 5 cents on her.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=HT Twerk4Miley,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-09-20T06:59:37.667+0000)
Tbh zyra is very stale, her build is pretty much the same no matter what, athenes, rylais and liandries,then death cap and zonyas.
I actually agree and disagree with this,she can go for morrelos instead of athenes,and ludens is also a solid option on her,in mid she has a solid amount of options but I am starting to get the sense liandries is holding her back.
It's hard to say but zyra isn't crap by any means she just has a rougher time getting fed than someone like annie or ahri per say.
It's a rather null statement,zyra is a utility mage,which when they work properly,don't snowball as hard but are also much harder to shut down than burst mages,or whatever bullshit ahri is supposed to be.
Her base damages are really low for a mage and doesn't have the mobility that someone like lissandra has. I would have preferred to see some mana buffs rather than the plant AI like they did to syndra.
Her base damages are actually really high(due to plants),and plants ai was buggy and bugs should be fixed,they definitely should have buffed her more though.
Once zyra has her items she can wreck havoc in a 1v1 and burst the enemy team during team fights but then again it takes a lot more time to get there because you are simply zyra and everyone knows zyra can't have nice things since she simply has too much already.
This isn't true,no matter the point of the game zyra is not strong in 1v1,she can weak havoc in teamfights,that's why you just outrotate her,don't go playing aram against heavy aoe immobile squishes,has jinx taught us nothing?
Possible solution: remove the passive cdr on W and lower her mana costs and possibly lower her Q damage to 200 while buffing her ap ratio to .75 and remove the vision it gives on her seeds to tone down her support role and emphasize on her mage role as she was intended. That's my 5 cents on her.
"please nerf an underpowered champion" . .. ...
facepalm
Also: "please nerf the role most of the playerbase uses her as,cause they are not me,and I am the only person who matters"
double facepalm?
A little Peepo1 votesFirst of all zyra is no where near under powered by any means. Second you underestimate the damage her plants on a snared target with liandries and rylais can do. Just because a mage is a utility mage that does not mean they should naturally have a hard time getting kills (ex. Lulu is a utility mage who can get kills really easy and her base abilities are lower than zyra if you count the plant damage, orianna is a utility mage who can get kills much easier than zyra and lissandra who also has low base damage can get ahead much easier and even morg who brings utility and cc or lux)
Replacing athenes with Morello doesn't change anything since both items serve the same purpose, mana regen and cdr. Ludens is a pretty good item but you would have to sacrifice a death cap or zonyas or rylais (rylais is just god tier after buff on her and liandries deals a lot of damage since is re applies with her plants so that's a no brainer)
Zyra is heavily gated by her mana costs and her wave clear mana expenses. If zyra was under powered then she would not be wrecking in team fights with a full build like you stated, now would she? What you need to understand is that zyra is an over packed champion like every champion certainlyT has designed. Zyra has a lot in her kit that buffing her in any way would take her over the top and nerfs would have to be taken to compensate buffs. I do understand riot balance team tends to be weird at times but for once I agree with them that buffing zyra would be a bad move (which is why they reverted the buff on her ult in pbe)
Short and simple, of zyra gets buffed then she will also have to be nerfed because she has the same problem annie has, they wreck bot lane when they are considered high tier picks. I mean if you look zyra up on lolking she is classified as a support... The player base took her there and hence why she will never be buffed without nerfing in return, zyra isn't allowed to having nice things like eve and a couple of other champions) but that doesn't make her under powered by any means just leaves her a little on the weak side, but to everyone their opinions because opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one 💩
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=HT Twerk4Miley,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2015-09-20T08:40:39.121+0000)
First of all zyra is no where near under powered by any means.
And yet she is.
Second you underestimate the damage her plants on a snared target with liandries and rylais can do.
I don't,I'm aware it's quite a lot,I'm also aware that the cc from other mages is both more threatening and more likely to land.
Just because a mage is a utility mage that does not mean they should naturally have a hard time getting kills (ex. Lulu is a utility mage who can get kills really easy and her base abilities are lower than zyra if you count the plant damage,
I highly suggest you check on champion.gg how many kills lulu gets compared to other mid laners(and zyra herself),lulu is the polar opposite of a champion who can get kills easily.
orianna is a utility mage who can get kills much easier than zyra and lissandra who also has low base damage can get ahead much easier and even morg who brings utility and cc or lux)
Have you actually bothered looking at the statistics for these champions? all of them are very low on the kill count compared to their competition,and most of them don't outperform zyra in that,only notable champion is lux,who seems to be doing rather well right now,and even she is far from topping the kill charts.
Replacing athenes with Morello doesn't change anything since both items serve the same purpose, mana regen and cdr.
So you're telling me that zyra like most champions has a rather straight forward build path? Oh no!
Ludens is a pretty good item but you would have to sacrifice a death cap or zonyas or rylais (rylais is just god tier after buff on her and liandries deals a lot of damage since is re applies with her plants so that's a no brainer)
See thing is her snare and e plants cc anyway,the strongest synergy is with her ult,but yes,ludens actually is a serious alternative to rylai,or just skip lyandries rylai outright if their team is mobile enough,which it often is.
Zyra is heavily gated by her mana costs and her wave clear mana expenses. If zyra was under powered then she would not be wrecking in team fights with a full build like you stated, now would she?
Of course she would,people need to realize that a champion being bad doesn't mean it's shit on all accords,orianna for example has amazing teamfighting too,while having better roam and being much less vunerable overall,and guess what,meta champions are so fucking stupid that even orianna is having trouble competing,what does that make of zyra?
What you need to understand is that zyra is an over packed champion like every champion certainlyT has designed.
Except that she isn't,in fact her lack of versatility is causing her a lot of problems,and in fact darius is another certainlyT champ who is far from overloaded,just because most of his champs are idiotic shit,doesn't make all of them so,it's like certainlyT is the new hitler.
Zyra has a lot in her kit that buffing her in any way would take her over the top and nerfs would have to be taken to compensate buffs.
And why is that?
I do understand riot balance team tends to be weird at times but for once I agree with them that buffing zyra would be a bad move (which is why they reverted the buff on her ult in pbe)
The only reason they reverted the buffs is because they did such a good job at destroying her playerbase there's not enough people to protest how bad of a job they are doing with her.
Short and simple, of zyra gets buffed then she will also have to be nerfed because she has the same problem annie has,
Are you completely out of your mind? Because I'm sorry,you can't just tell me zyra has the same problems as annie when everyone knows THE problems with annie are POINT-CLICK lock down and burst,and zyra is known for her unreliability.
they wreck bot lane when they are considered high tier picks.
They don't.
I mean if you look zyra up on lolking she is classified as a support... The player base took her there and hence why she will never be buffed without nerfing in return,
Again one random statement after another,why sholdn't an underpowered support be straight up buffed? what do you think the ult buff was aimed at?
zyra isn't allowed to having nice things like eve and a couple of other champions)
Don't you fucking compare zyra to that 0 counterplay cancer. There's a reason evelynn surpass riven in banrate,all of which is because she is overpowered cancerous garbage,and yes,evelynn is overpowered in solo q,riot was right wanting to nerf her,the low elo garbage on the boards just had to do its thing.
Meanwhile zyra is sitting on a 0.07% banrate,clearly being as toxic and problematic as evelynn.
but that doesn't make her under powered by any means just leaves her a little on the weak side,
Riot actually called both support and mid zyra healthy,I dare you to find them saying that about evelynn after the s4 vision changes.
but to everyone their opinions because opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one 💩
You also seemed to have made yours up of dice rolls.
Ser Garland1 votes[{quoted}](name=HT Twerk4Miley,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2015-09-20T08:40:39.121+0000)
Short and simple, of zyra gets buffed then she will also have to be nerfed because she has the same problem annie has, they wreck bot lane when they are considered high tier picks.
Yes because anything about Zyra is point and Click, just like Annie.
Tell me why Heimerdinger gets long lasting turrets with two attacks that heal themselves and Zyra's plants die in five seconds?
Nothing about her damage needs to be buffed. Her scaling is good, her base damage is good. Like I said, she does a lot of damage, its her reliability that needs to be buffed.
She specializes in two things: Aoe DPS, and disengage. She has literally nothing else. She can't duel. She can't run, She can't stay in lane for very long and she can die in an instant. She's not even the best at what she does, and others that can DPS harder than her (Casseopia) or disengage better (Every other mage support) all have other things in their kit to benefit them.
Things Zyra needs:
Things Zyra doesn't need:
Ser Garland1 votes[{quoted}](name=HT Twerk4Miley,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGQWGcz4,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-09-20T06:59:37.667+0000)
Tbh zyra is very stale, her build is pretty much the same no matter what, athenes, rylais and liandries, then death cap and zonyas. It's hard to say but zyra isn't crap by any means she just has a rougher time getting fed than someone like annie or ahri per say. Her base damages are really low for a mage and doesn't have the mobility that someone like lissandra has. I would have preferred to see some mana buffs rather than the plant AI like they did to syndra.
Once zyra has her items she can wreck havoc in a 1v1 and burst the enemy team during team fights but then again it takes a lot more time to get there because you are simply zyra and everyone knows zyra can't have nice things since she simply has too much already.
Possible solution: remove the passive cdr on W and lower her mana costs and possibly lower her Q damage to 200 while buffing her ap ratio to .75 and remove the vision it gives on her seeds to tone down her support role and emphasize on her mage role as she was intended. That's my 5 cents on her.
I don't know how you can not rush Ludon's on her. Unless you want her to be the slowest character in the game.
KoKoboto1 votesThe plants still stop attacking sometimes, like I put the plant down a bunch of stuff is around it and it dosen't attack anything, usually occurs after hitting a champion and it going out of range
manbearswine1 votesThe plants still stop attacking sometimes, like I put the plant down a bunch of stuff is around it and it dosen't attack anything, usually occurs after hitting a champion and it going out of range
- This isn't a buff == its like giving you a bugged up champion, fixing the bugs and than calling it a buff NO this is how the champion should be + plants also die hella fast...
Yes it should have been fixed anyway,but it could've been with compensation nerfs,if it makes a champion stronger its a buff,and you can actually see that it supposedly made her mid stronger.
I went to gank top from mid behind enemy Yasuo and his minions the plant legit only got 1 attack off and instantly died (still got the Kill cause I caught him with E and Jax had a good follow up) freaking ridiculous that the supposed "control mage" plants die instantly if minions ever agro it... and the thing is you COULD try placing them away from minions or argue that you use them outside of lanes but in those cases a few attacks and spells from enemy champions kill them instantly yep not to mention 0.7snare level 1 E when you max Q first is realllly sad....
her plants dying easily to minions is how she was intended,and is a tradeoff for the fact they cost no mana and are cast from a solid range,her e being 0.75 seconds at level 1 is pretty stupid though.