"Remember how fun it was when x was strong?"

Mira Arya Enthe·Mar 3, 2017·60 votes·3,791 views

Remember how fun League of tanks was? When Mundo or Udyr could take 500000 tower shots while moving at 600mph and killing everything?

Remember how fun it was when assassins were OP? When every game was Zed, Talon, Kha'Zix, Rengar, Shaco and crew instagibbing while still being tanky?

Remember how fun it was when battle mages were so strong that why pick a bruiser top because Vlad, Swain and Rumble?

Remember how fun it was when healers were strong? Blowing your entire kit to do 0 damage to an enemy's HP bar?

Anybody could say this about any class. Pointless point is pointless. ADCs are a class and have to be viable like any other. Only difference is the boards population is largely tank, juggernaut and mage mains with a few supports weaved in. So trying to defend carry classes in general is much harder than farming upvotes on an easy circlejerk.

95 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 3, 201720 votes

it WAS fun at the end of season 5 a couple weeks after the juggernaut patch, when everyone was strong. (except for morde, juggs took like 2 weeks to be balanced out. skarner was hotfixed within 2 days.)

and yea, there was still the rework morde, but that was a problem more with morde than the overall state of the game. the abuse of bruiser items on carries and assassins didnt start until preseason 6 with new masteries like fervor, thunderlord and the item reworks (+ buildpath changes) with the marksmen update that made it possible to a large part.

the juggernaut update was small scale enough that they figured out most of it pretty fast. the game qualitiy started to really go downhill with season 6.

the increased death timers, the damage creep, removal of vision, turret changes, global gold changes, the massive changes to too many champions and items, followed by another massive patch (mage update) without fully dealing with the fallout of the first one.

like they were STILL working on marksmen like KogMaw (finally giving up and reverting the rework) when they dropped another gigantic update.

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20178 votes

Mhm. Agreed. That said if everyone was viable it wasn't a tank meta.

The problem is people like to circle jerk against one class "x is toxic whenever strong!" And ignore their bias. It was not fun before adjustments when Shyvana could 1v5 with two tank items, she was just as Toxic when strong as Vayne or Caitlyn. Doesn't mean the entire marksman class can be left in the gutter.

Critmaster GarenMar 3, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcEEPXN7,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-03T01:39:51.141+0000)

Mhm. Agreed. That said if everyone was viable it wasn't a tank meta.

The problem is people like to circle jerk against one class "x is toxic whenever strong!" And ignore their bias. It was not fun before adjustments when Shyvana could 1v5 with two tank items, she was just as Toxic when strong as Vayne or Caitlyn. Doesn't mean the entire marksman class can be left in the gutter.

i agree, it wasnt a tank meta. and imo the poor quality of games is due to global mechanics changes more than a particular class being strong.

it was a teamfight oriented meta in which you could carry from every lane if you were doing well.

SpecterVonBarenMar 3, 20171 votes

Eh.... the patch before the Juggernaut patch was the most balanced and fun I've ever seen the game be. The Juggernaut patch was what sent everything over the cliff again.

Critmaster GarenMar 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Eh.... the patch before the Juggernaut patch was the most balanced and fun I've ever seen the game be. The Juggernaut patch was what sent everything over the cliff again.

the last patch of season 5 before the preseason patch and the marksmen update hit was great.

there was not a single carry class standing out. dependent on how well you did during the lane phase, you could take over and carry the game from any position, and have your team support you.

the juggernaut patch wasnt nearly as bad as many people remember. yes, skarner and morde were crazy, but they had entirely been dealt with in a matter of 4 weeks to the point where juggernauts were pretty balanced and felt good to play at the end of the season.

meanwhile season 6 felt like an eternal preseason. the scope of the updates and how many champions were changed paired with the usual massive global changes that happen during preseason and the massive changes to the mastery system ruined the game balance.

the juggernaut update affected 4 champions and was small enough to deal with, but with the other updates, riot just bit off more than they could chew.

Edge of DaybreakMar 3, 201712 votes

Amen. Trying to even talk about other roles on this forum is god awful. Meanwhile everyone acts like the tank meta was some perfect version of LOL because classes they didnt like werent as viable.

Faceroll TacticsMar 3, 20173 votes

Any top lane fighter or adc is viable and there's a boards shit storm, they don't have to be strong and what people complaining about doesn't even have to be true, the riven cc cancel incident comes to mind

MatthewRT2Mar 3, 20179 votes

people want the tank meta because games were longer, had more room for error and you had a change of winning from behind where as now it's a shitstorm as soon as a team gets first turret and the winning team is the one who can build more armor pen

JihyobdaMar 3, 20172 votes

That's not the tank meta, that's the balanced meta, the tank meta was when ekko and fizz built tank and oneshot people

General TherittMar 3, 20173 votes

That was the unintended bruiser meta. Bruisers and tanks are 2 very different things. Bruisers can take hits and dish them out, but they aren't as durable as real tanks, who focus more on absorbing damage. They weren't tank metas either, it was due to unintended side effects of Ekko's overloaded kit and how much burst Fizz can deal within a few seconds. Tank meta is more when characters like Sion, Maokai, Poppy, Darius, Morde, excel because their massive durability isn't easily ignored.

skyskee008Mar 3, 20172 votes

Thing is tank meta was ALSO snowbally. Udyr/Volibear/Mundo would get ahead and 1v9 the game ignoring turrets.

Big LincolnMar 3, 201712 votes

Remember the 90s?

Bottom LanerMar 3, 201745 votes

Remember the Alamo?

MelledoneusMar 3, 201710 votes

Remember 7/11?

Jet SettMar 3, 20174 votes

Remember Blockbuster?

SpecterVonBarenMar 3, 20172 votes

Too soon man...

TyrekGoldenspearMar 3, 20175 votes

Remember Yorick Mori?

MatthewRT2Mar 3, 20173 votes

:'( I miss the old yorick, he atleast had some nice lore that gave depth to his character

MclovedMar 3, 20172 votes

haha yea i 'member

TyrekGoldenspearMar 3, 20179 votes

Thank you.

Viability Hotel has vacancies, and no class deserves to be left out in the cold.

Merkel x TsiprasMar 3, 20179 votes

its about fun and game playing!!

Having someone top hitting you from 600 range while you cant do nothing is retarded (see jayce quinn vayne etc) yeah they may not have exactly 600 range but you get the point

IS BAD for the gameplay and the fun of the game!!

Ok? and nobody say the tank meta was the best EVERYONE SAY SEASON 2 -3 was the best simple because the ITEMS were there to stop ADCs mid-late game and not get melted BRUISERS WERE HAVING OPTIONS ON THEIR BUILD MR itemazation didnt suck for tanks

MASTERIES were actually good for tanks and bruisers and not just for adcs/assasins like we have now or you gonna tell me that i can play nunu or mundo with some of the current masteries? CoC was a bit good but BROKEN champions like VI and Hecarim got that mastery nerfed to the ground

THAT WHAT PEOPLE WANT BACK to be able to be against FULL AD ITEMS AND ACTUALLY PUNISH THOSE PEOPLE not "well we are full ad we won anyway because hurr durr lethality and L/W with 2.5k removes 12k of tank items

because WHY NO RIGHT?

That why people say S2-3 were good and yeah the BC meta exist for one patch BUT THAT WAS JUST A TESTIN PATCH ON PRESEASON not even in normal season

BTW FoN where? OH YEAH many things were better dont evebn try to justify

NastyMcOutplayMar 3, 20172 votes

the only reasonable response got spam downvoted

Spinning AxesMar 3, 20179 votes

I think there's a couple of AD mains on these boards, but the second they try and voice any opinion backing their class they get downvoted, disincentivizing them to post.

ExalomaniacMar 3, 20177 votes

ADC main here, that is literally my experience on the boards. I browse them regularly for the memes but its futile to have a discussion with "Rubick x Sona" and "Woonstruck" followers.

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20174 votes

RalanrMar 3, 20172 votes

What about "ralanr" type people?

TyrekGoldenspearMar 3, 20172 votes

They are quite agreeable in my experience. :^)

LeetriMar 3, 20173 votes

Same could be said for any unpopular topic. Say that you think Yasuo is ok, massively downvoted. Say that Riven mains are people just like you and I and don't deserve the mindless hate, massively downvoted. Say that not everyone wants hour long games, massively downvoted. That is until one of the resident celebrities brings up and agrees with an unpopular topic, then suddenly everyone agrees. It is a bit of an echo chamber, but most forums are like that.

LauchmelderMar 4, 20171 votes

Part of the problem is AD "defensive" itemization being so much better than its AP counterpart.

Now AD mains come and call APs broken beyond control while AP mains see the 500AD 150MR Lifeline boosted EoN spellshielded Assassin instagibbing them.

It's only natural that AP mains will just downvote posts asking for buffs on certain AD champions that already are strong.

Spinning AxesMar 4, 20171 votes

The AD defensive itemization for marksman is limited, at best.

The absolute BEST item for defensive items are Edge of Night, and cry as you will, it isn't very strong defensively, and Mercurial Scimitar, which, given, is a very strong item.

We can also buy Banshee's Veil, which means trading in a Bloodthirster or an item of around equal value, or a Guardian Angel, which we would also have to sell a Bloodthirster for.

With the Warlord's Bloodlust keystone falling out of favor, lifesteal is becoming much more important to build, and the defensive itemization for AD carries becomes even more invasive into our builds.

When you compare AD carry defensive items to AP carry defensive items, it's a total landslide.

AP carries get Abyssal Scepter, Zhonya's Hourglass (given, it's is in a pretty bad spot right now), Archangel's Staff (if applicable,) Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and on top of all that, you can STILL choose to buy a Guardian Angel if need be, because all of your defensive items still give enough AP to be relevant.

The defensive itemization for AD assassins is more comparable to AP carries, but even then, assassins really only have Edge of Night, Maw of Malmortius, Mercural Scimitar, and Guardian Angel. While, in my opinion, the power level of these items are quite strong, having all of these items would force out Youmuu's Ghostblade, Duskblade of Draktharr, Last Whisper, or Black Cleaver, ALL of which are incredibly necessary in the majority of games.

I think that the assassin defensive itemization is actually quite balanced, it's just that the lethality of items are incredibly abusable on a lot of champions, making them deal too much damage for what they're paying for.

The place to nerf assassins isn't in their defensive itemization, it's in their gold efficient build path. They need to be nerfed mid game, as generally assassins are quite bad in the laning phase, and perhaps they might get a compensation buff early or late game. Of course, it would all be speculation based on how assassins get their mid game nerfed, but the point stands that AD vs. AP defensive itemization shouldn't be a reason to be hating on AD champions.

EnloctMar 3, 20178 votes

Yeah. I remember. It _was _ fun.

Lethality meta isn't.

CoffeeMug xDMar 3, 20176 votes

Remember when Xin Zhao could solo baron with two Doran shields at lvl 13

ThilmerMar 3, 20175 votes

League of Tanks was more fun tan the current meta because teamfigths lasted more tan 2 seconds. "Drops the mic"

Ben SharpioMar 3, 20174 votes

excepts its proven that when tanks were "overpowered", they were less disastrous than when assasins/adcs ect are op. When damage-dealers are overpowered it breaks the game entirely.

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20178 votes

Your bias is showing.

YokoNomiMar 3, 20174 votes

Remember Old Malzahar?

CyberBaltMar 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcEEPXN7,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-03T00:16:33.038+0000)

ADCs are a class and have to be viable like any other.

Are you implying that they're not? I have a hard time understanding how a class could not be viable, when they've been mandatory, since just about ... forever? With the occasional Ziggs bot, which could very well just be a fad anyways ...

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20174 votes

This post is in response to a front page post implying ADCs should not be viable because being ranged makes them annoying to fight. The game has been designed and balanced around having an APC and ADC typically on each team since it's inception. ADCs with the exception of a couple meta/item abusers are trash right now, thus why people were looking for alternate options like AD casters, Ziggs bot and more. The lethality buffs and buffs to draven made a couple select ADCs busted but otherwise their need for 3 items to be useful these days(BF sword/IE use to be enough) makes them worthless unless the game is played very passively allowing them to scale.

So yes. They are crap right now. And no that is not a good thing, no more than tanks being crap is okay because Poppy and Mao are annoying.

CyberBaltMar 3, 20175 votes

I agree that no class should be left to rot, even if they've traditionally been OP in the past.

However, I'm not convinced that ADCs are weak, or really if adcs have been weak in recent memory. There are games that can exclude every other class (tanks might be a bit iffy, but I do believe you can leave them out as well), but adcs are NEVER left out. I fail to see how a class that is being played in every game is weak. Isn't it like someone saying they hate icecream, while they are eating icecream?

I will not deny that I'm probably a salty juggernaut main, but honestly, who wouldn't be after being the third-tier carry class (first two being ADCs and mid lane mages) for the longest time? If there was at least ONE other class that competed for the bot lane role, then I would be willing to accept they need buffs. But as it stands right now, whether or not any given adc is considered good or bad is just ... as compared to OTHER adcs.

Sahn UzalMar 3, 20173 votes

All opinions and views on the current State of Marksmen aside, because I do not agree with your statements here and we likely would not come to a conclusion if we were to discuss it.

Now:

Yes, I do think Marksmen should be a Viable class. I do not think any class should be in the gutter, as much as I generally dislike the Marksman class.

No, I do not think Marksmen should be the only class that is played in the Bot-position. (The position, not the lane. I am talking about the ''carry'' champions, not supports.)

ADC mains who desire to pick a Marksman in Botlane should be able to do so. But I do not think Marksmen should be the only option.

An Example would be an Artilery or Battle Mage that relies on Gold, more so than XP would be a perfect option. I don't think I need to explain the issue with the concept of a burst mage being played in that position

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20171 votes

Sure, as long as we also make an ADC that is more exp reliant than gold that can be sent mid.

Sahn UzalMar 3, 20174 votes

Oh come on Mira.

KogMaw Corki Varus Ezreal Mid Graves Kindred Twitch Jungle MissFortune Support Quinn Top, can't believe I forgot about her lol

There are plenty of Marksmen played outside of the ADC role. I'm not even listing the rarer ones like Lucian Mid, Vayne Top etc.

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20171 votes

Corki, Varus and Ez are AD casters, so like GP pretty much mages who scale with AD, especially when played mid, some EZ even go AP there. I wasn't aware Kog was played mid. Sup MF is a meme, it worked in LCS because LCS it isn't worth accounting for. Yes some marksmen can jungle and top, so can some mages.

Sahn UzalMar 3, 20175 votes

Support Miss Fortune has a 4% playrate, and had a 6.4% playrate a few patches ago according to op.gg https://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/support

For a ''meme'', it's played surprisingly much. And trust me, I was in the same boat as you on this topic when it was first played in LCS. However, currently, MF is a support as much as Malzahar is.

Varus and Ez are classified as Hybrids between Marksmen and Artillery mages. Corki is a Marksman. Just a Marksman.

Now, Mira, please explain to me.

Why do you seem to disagree with the concept of champions from other subclasses being played in the Bot-position, but you are not showing any signs of disagreement when it comes to Marksmen being played in Roles that are not Bottom Lane.

Am I understanding your view on the situation incorrectly? Because in the current situation, I don't see how your claims of being non-biased are holding up. Again, if I am wrong, feel free to prove me wrong. I'll listen.

Mira Arya EntheMar 3, 20173 votes

It's not about bias, considering I only play 1 ADC but play 3 Juggernauts, 2 Tanks, 2 Supports, 1 Skirmisher, 2 Mages and 2 Divers. I have no special love for ADC. That said ADC is a healthy role to exist, look at S1-5 which people praise as being amazing, especially S3 and S5 after some tank tuning. Marksman were 100% necessary. They fill an interesting role in the game, their job is to prevent tanks from becoming overbearing late game as other counterparts in this are either melee or CD gated making them less reliable. And to provide your team with reliable siege and objective DPS. Trying to force another role into bot lane for the sake of forcing another role into bot lane is asking for a balance nightmare.

Don't believe me? Mordekaiser. Still don't believe me? Yasuo. Both of these were attempts at interjecting non-marksman into bot lane by force. One is shit because his design ended up out of whack so they had to nerf him to hell, the other is an overloaded champion much of the playerbase hates who abuses melees harder than ranged champions despite being designed for the opposite.

I am actually 100% fine with mages going bot lane, as long as traditional marksmen can go mid. I don't care about Ziggs bot for example. Then again, he still annoys the shit out of some people with his tower execute which is largely what makes him viable there. Again we need a toxic mechanic to force it to work. But in general the game cannot balance so that 134 champions can play all 5 roles. The role of support/adc duo just works, and if tanks ever get to be relevant again, is necessary to prevent them from becoming overbearing.

I hate fighting ADCs, I play Shyvana. I fucking cannot stand fighting Lucian, Kalista, Ashe(lol even though il her), Jinx, Vayne, Vayne, Twitch, Vayne. On Shyvana. but I know their role in the game, it is important just like tanks should be, and have no particular reason to throw the game balance out the window and try more shitty attempts at forcing a champion into bot lane.

Sahn UzalMar 3, 20172 votes

It's not about bias

There is a reason I am giving you a chance to respond before making a statement.

Don't believe me? Mordekaiser.

Mordekaiser is a Juggernaut. Getting Kited (HINT MARKSMEN HINT) is his Subclass' main weakness. Putting him Botlane was a stupid idea, as stupid as it would be to put a Burst mage in Bottom lane. Which is why I already mentioned that'd be stupid.

You did a fine job explaining what went wrong with Yasuo.

There is a reason I used a mage subclass as an example, not a Melee champion.

I am actually 100% fine with mages going bot lane

Now we're going in a good direction. But.....?

as long as traditional marksmen can go mid.

Corki is a Traditional Marksman As much as you may not FEEL like he is, he is classified as one. Ezreal is a Primary Marksman, Artillery is only his secondary role. And it's not like I'm suggesting we shove the entire mage roster to botlane. I basically suggested the opposite by saying Burst Mages wouldn't be healthy there lol

The role of support/adc duo just works

The Fighter/Tank vs Fighter/Tank Toplane Matchup ''just works''. That doesn't mean we don't see champions from Other subclasses like Quinn, Jayce, Rumble, even GP up there. You still haven't given me a proper reason why Marksmen should be the only option in Botlane, one that I can not use just as easily to toplane.

if tanks ever get to be relevant again, is necessary to prevent them from becoming overbearing.

Skirmishers do a fine job at shredding tanks, they're not 100% necessary though. Mages with item 2139 do a fine job on Towers, I think Rubick uploaded a video showcasing that.

I hate fighting ADCs, I play Shyvana. I fucking cannot stand fighting Lucian, Kalista, Ashe(lol even though il her), Jinx, Vayne, Vayne, Twitch, Vayne. On Shyvana. but I know their role in the game, it is important just like tanks should be,

Every subclass has their place in the game, as much as players may hate an other sub class. They all have their role in the game.

There are more subclasses available than there are roles on a team. Mages and Skirmishers are perfectly able to fullfill an ADC's job.

and have no particular reason to throw the game balance out the window and try more shitty attempts at forcing a champion into bot lane.

You bloody know Riot is going to throw the game balance out the window some how. And ''Bot'' being the ''carry'' or ''scaling'' role rather than ''ADC'' is something Riot themselves want. Now I'm gonna have to find the post where this was said... I think it was some Ghostcrawler blog