Some people actually enjoy simple kits...

Mira Arya Enthe··229 votes·9,568 views

Did you know different people have different tastes and win by different means? Amazing right!

Okay. So we have a game with 133 champions and growing. Yet for some strange reason, a vocal portion of the community seems to think Azir, Vayne, Riven, Ryze and Yasuo are the ideal design every champion should be aimed towards.

I see lots of buzz-words thrown around like "Unhealthy", "Interactivity", "Hidden Power", "Stat Check", etc. Basically all boiling down to one thing.

"Your champion design values strategy/build choices/teamwork/meta-play/stat crunching over twitching better! They must be badly designed. Victory in this strategic, objective based game must ONLY be achieved through twitching better to get a higher KDA!"

I hate to tell you. Not everyone wants to win by being Boxbox. Some of us want to perfect farming. Out position the enemy. Strategize better. Make better decisions. Have better team fight engagements. Coordinate better. Have better map awareness. Communicate better. Innovate our builds.

Or dozens of other methods of achieving victory. Besides just having superior twitch mechanics.

And with 133 champions in the game. Reworking all of the currently "simple" designs into convoluted, 'impossible to balance', mini-game obsessed, three hit passive champions. Isn't at all necessary.

You can go Gosu it up on Vayne. I will be over here being a tactician, shot caller and game knowledge nerd on Shyvana.

We can co-exist. So stop pretending twitch, feast or famine, high risk high reward designs. Are the only viable design.


117 Upvote Edit: Figure I should add some clarity to a few complaints.

1: Never said complex champions do not require strategy or thought. But they are more forgiving on those as long as you have skill on them. Mess up on Ekko? R to safety, dash and movespeed. Mess up a flash+R ln Annie? You are screwed.

Just as simpler champions tend to be more forgiving on skill as long as you have strategy and thought.

Both require a level of skill and thought and strategy. But they differ in focus.

2: I agree some designs can be TOO simple. My favorite champion is Shyvana. I think her kit needs some interactivity and counterplay, and more fun usage of her ult. Meddler confirmed she was being looked at. But I'd still prefer her design be simple. Not too simple like Garen, but simple like new Poppy who is one of the best champion designs ever imo.

Simple but healthy.

3: I don't hate skill based champions. Top lane I play Riven because my favorite streamer is Boxbox. I simply prefer the strategic playstyle of people like Hai, Trick2g, Singed420 and others. Yes they all have excellent mechanics but they focus on strategy. Trick2g and Singed420 even choosing "simple" champions(Udyr/Nasus/Yorick and Singed respectively).

4: "Complex champions are easier to balance". If a system has more things to break more things will break. BOTH complex and simple kits have their downsides to balance. Yi and Aatrox are problem champions. But Ashe and Sona seemed easy enough to balance to a reasonable spot.

While Yasuo, Azir, Taliya, Kalista, Ryze, Ekko, Fizz, Lee Sin, Riven, Nidalee, Graves, Jhin, Lucian and more have all been balance nightmares that people are never happy with.

Some simple champs are great, Poppy, others aren't, Garen.

There are some complex champions who have seemed fine in my eyes. I actually have NO problem with Yasuo's current state other than Wind Wall being 'annoying'(annoying isn't a balance issue). I actually haven't had a problem with Zed since his first round of changes.

This post isn't about that however. It's about the players and even some devs who think simple=brainless and bad, complex=better design and players.

289 Comments

Keira Helsh32 votes

I do like complicated kits that have a lot of depth, but something I've learned more recently from friends and other games such as Dark Souls, is that depth doesn't have to come through complexity.

Take for example current Katarina before they rework her. Many people in low leagues will tell you that Katarina takes no skill, in some ways that's true. It's not difficult to jump into a fight and melt a few people quickly. But, higher leagues find her impossible to play, because enemy awareness is at a point where they are constantly aware of Katarina, and your window of opportunity to engage becomes smaller and harder to tell.

Katarina's kit is super simple, and doesn't take a whole lot of skill to engage, but her teamfight depth increases rapidly as overall player skill does. I find her a challenge to learn and fun to play because of this. I've always been more of a charge into battle type, so it's out of my comfort zone. Interestingly enough, I find the upcoming rework to have an actually simpler kit that's heavy on depth of play.

Again, this is somewhat different than what Mira is talking about, my example still has twitch play with the resets. But the same is true for stat sticks like Shyvana. Sure, I can hop on her and probably do okay, but nowhere near as well as I could do, simply because I don't understand the depth that her focus on the overall strategy of the game brings to the table.

WinTheWarOnPants23 votes

"...Yasuo are the ideal design every champion should be aimed towards." who says this!?! lol jk but, seriously no one says this... btw i agree with OP. simply champs can be really fun like BAE since most of the play revloves around tactics and using Her passive properly.

Luxychan18 votes

I love my simple kits.

Morgana: Passive: Spellvamp Q- root W- AoE E- spell shield R- Slow then stun

Lux: Passive- AA after landing an ability Q- Root with potential second root W- AoE Slow/Damage E- Shield/Shield R- Line KA-BOOM

Cho'Gath: Q- AoE knock up and slow W- Cone silence E- AA enhancer R- Nom to gain health

Not saying having a complex kit is bad, but don't ruin my gameplay preference because of it.

Ryuyah19 votes

Lux W is the shield .-.

Paladin 0f Life16 votes

What about semi simple kits with nuances like Nunu? Easy kit but now has some micro managing mini game that affects his powerspikes and ganking potential. Or like Poppy, easy kit but passive provides fun play that is not always predictable it lets their kit not be super boring and adds depth to the game while keeping mechanics low.

Luxychan48 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paladin 0f Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usFLmExU,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-23T22:32:50.767+0000)

What about semi simple kits with nuances like Nunu? Easy kit but now has some micro managing mini game that affects his powerspikes and ganking potential. Or like Poppy, easy kit but passive provides fun play that is not always predictable it lets their kit not be super boring and adds depth to the game while keeping mechanics low.

The poppy changes were, in my opinion, one of the best changes to a champion I've seen. It helped her become a fun to play cham,pion without completely complicating her kit. It's a wonderful example of adding a hint of complexity without ruining the gameplay.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 votes

yea i agree

Poske2 votes

The ammount of rage your post just induced to me is ridicilus

New Poppy is nothing like Old Poppy. Old Poppy was strategic late game powerhouse WHICH DIDNT GIVE A FK ABOUT ANYTHING. I dont get this wibe from new poppy

Instead of Nerfing her unique ultimate they replaced it with another unique ultimate

They kept stuff like her charge

But what IF I TOLD YOU Riot can call that her iconic ABILITY AS MUCH AS THEY WANT BUT NOT A SINGLE POPPY PLAYER PLAYED HER BECAUSE OF THE ST UPID WALL PIN (well maybe some rugby players would like the tackle..)

crippler3812 votes

true but that ultimate is literally impossible to have on a balanced kit. You can't make someone immune to EVERYTHING but one person on the entire enemy team and expect balance!

Nameless Voice16 votes

I'm fine with kits being either complicated or simple, so long as the complex kit doesn't give the player so many tools that there's always something that they can do in every situation.

What I don't think is okay is a flashy champion who always has some trick up their sleeve where, if they mash buttons fast enough, they can overcome huge tactical and strategic errors.

For example, Evelynn has a really, really simple kit, yet she has to approach every situation strategically, because if she makes the slightly mistake she's probably dead. Compare Lee Sin - his kit is really complex, and it takes a lot of speed, APM and mechanical skill to play it well, but once you have mastered those skills, he can get out of almost any mistake or missplay by mashing the right buttons fast enough.

Yes, of course as an Evelynn main I'm biased here, but my point still stands.

I have tons of respect for someone playing a truly high-risk, high-reward champion that takes serious strategic/tactical planning to use successfully.

I have zero respect for someone playing a champion who can mess up completely, be caught totally out of position, and still escape or "outplay" their enemies because their kit has so many tools in it.

Paladin 0f Life3 votes

Ekko Vladimir Zed Leblanc too much mobility and "outplay" feel sorta cheated even when you know the abilities and cooldowns liek when ekko just rewinds gets a heal then a shield then dashes out it urks me but you cant really focus him early unless he is caught with pants down

Nameless Voice6 votes

Wait. why is Vlad here? He has a really simple kit and no mobility?

Agree with the others, though.

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

Oh nice cc you have. Pool! Oh you still want to fight. E Q! EQ! 2 Aoe slows and heal. Just a simple trick. Then he has speed up with the slows so he can kite back to heal up pretty easy. Pretty hard to get caught out as a vlad even with simple kit. Like fizz you can bait him and he's screwed. Vlad you gotta try to stay caught

Nameless Voice5 votes

That's a problem with Rylai's, not Vlad.

Mecha MaIphite14 votes

It's also great when people playing "mechanically intensive" champs complain about your champ being so braindead.

Like, maybe you should give them a try, since you're clearly not good enough to play whoever you're playing.

EndlessSorcerer9 votes

TFW the 0/7 Yasuo rages at 7/0 Annie for picking a simple no-skill champion.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L6hEyLmimZs/maxresdefault.jpg

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

I love it when Lee Sin players flip out because I beat them on Shyvana. They are like "I don't understand why you do more damage on an easy champion."

I don't know. Maybe because I don't have a knock back, 2 low CD dashes, a shield, lifesteal, a slow/AS slow/Reveal all with no CDs. >.>

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

They don't seem to understand the trade-off in versatility and reliability.

Both champions are similarly powerful (if with different powerspikes and playstyles), but Lee Sin has more options available to him.

They are also ignoring how Lee Sin has significant amount of utility and mobility while Shyvana trades that out for raw damage.

I am Razgriz5 votes

Your W does 4 things, but my Q? My Q does one thing. It hurts you.

Marshbouy11 votes

Azir, Vayne, Riven, Ryze and Yasuo are the ideal design every champion should be aimed towards

those people are of questionable intelligence. Azir and Ryze have been huge balance issues.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo9 votes

this is gonna come across extremely wrong but

what set of people in society seem to be full of love and happiness?

the simple minded people

does it theory apply to champs?

Resonance x LFT9 votes

God, I actually cringe every time I see the word "unhealthy" or "overloaded" more so the first.

Wind Whistler4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Resonance x LFT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usFLmExU,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-23T22:12:28.117+0000)

God, I actually cringe every time I see the word "unhealthy" or "overloaded" more so the first.

Maybe they were trying to say the champion had a bad eating habit?

TurquoiseYoshi7 votes

god gragas is so unhealthy and overloaded

50000000000000006 votes

Graves became a healthy champion because he quit smoking

Handy Sandy 8 votes

someone knows stuff, guys lets downvote because hes right and i wanna keep complaining about simple kits

The Whamboozler8 votes

I'm equally sick of overloaded champs ruling the roost because they can just plain DO MORE THINGS than their their simpler counterparts.

If you give a champion utility, mobility or the like they should suffer for it somewhere. It's rather frustrating to have one of these hyper-mobile lunatics dance around you for five minutes and ALSO be as strong as a weaker champ in a straight up fight.

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

Simpler champions should have better stats than the complicated ones; due to the complex ones being able to do more things!

The Whamboozler5 votes

Basically, yeah. Also skillshot based or immobile champs need to be stronger than dickbags like Ekko, Zed and Yasuo who can fly all over and cheat both death and their own misplays with the click of a button. If these guys have all the tools to evade or block skillshots and I hit them ANYWAY, I'd like to not see a shield absorb almost all of the damage I did then lifesteal to return the rest on the next auto-attack they make.

Malicious Metal7 votes
  • Mordekaiser <<

Tell me about it

Quort5 votes

There are few problems a good mace to the face can't fix! If only you could reach them first! feebly shakes fist at enemy Morgana

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

Another good post Mira.

I play complex champs Azir , mid-complexity combo oriented champs Brand , and even champs that need a lot of micro and coordination Taric .

But when I want to unwind, nothing feels better than going ham on the villain with Garen and getting that super satisfying ult.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo6 votes

you must respect the _DRAGON LADY

or you will get burned

summoner 14 summoner 14 item 3751 item 3751 summoner 11 item 3751 item 3751 summoner 14 summoner 14

Weathered5 votes

To be honest I love complicated kits :/

ChaddyFantome5 votes

Macro and micro both have their values. Not every champion needs to be a super micro heavy champion.

Epicanian5 votes

I do love complex kits, however I agree that simple ones are good too. All of the latest champions they are making are crazy complitcated minigame champions. I think they need to put out a simpler one every now and then

AlienPrimate5 votes

I will be angry with Riot if they change another one of my mains in a way that makes them unenjoyable or less enjoyable for me to play. Sion Poppy Shen Mordekaiser Taric . I used to play all of these champions a lot and now the only one I ever play is Taric. The Galio rework scares me as he has been my mid main since they reworked Sion.

MistaMac4 votes

Actually, Sion's kit is easy and quite straightforward - just as time passed he should be reworked into juggernaut instead of pure tank (nevertheless his current kit is awesome, balanced and one of the most fun kits in the game w/o complexity)

Phoenix Kotori 4 votes

I am fine with simple kits generally I only take issue with simple champions who border on unkillable if you can't pass their stat check due to sustain or tankyness coming from it for free leaving you feeling like there isn't much you can do against them without your team namely Vladimir Warwick DrMundo Nunu Trundle would be the worst offenders.

Otherwise I have no issue with simple champions.

Guest Host3 votes

Spot on! I really dislike how all of the recent champions and remakes involve complexity, which is not always necessarily good. Ivern AurelionSol Ekko Jhin Taliyah Kled Illaoi Yorick Ryze Taric

PermabannedGaren7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guest Host,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usFLmExU,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-10-23T23:00:11.908+0000)

Spot on! I really dislike how all of the recent champions and remakes involve complexity, which is not always necessarily good. Ivern AurelionSol Ekko Jhin Taliyah Kled Illaoi Yorick Ryze Taric

There is very little that is complex about Illaoi, lol. Or Kled for that matter. And Taric is arguably less complex than both.

doombotMECHA7 votes

enh, taric is medium complexity, basically support sion with combos. Kled and Illaoi both force the burden of knowledge (of their kits) on the enemy, kled through his convoluted passive (a kled with a full red bar is about to get 1k+ hp back, don't let him cs) and illaoi through her-paragraph-long-tooltip e (kill 3 tentacles to not be cursed be able to recall and stuff) ill was way worse on release, tho, allies killing tentas prolonged the curse andit lasted longer unchecked. also kled has five skills, is the only transforming champion to have an asymmetric number of skills between forms, and illaoi's tentacles and their interactions with her abilities are not something you want to learn in lane

Toastersaot21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guest Host,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usFLmExU,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-10-23T23:00:11.908+0000)

Spot on! I really dislike how all of the recent champions and remakes involve complexity, which is not always necessarily good. Ivern AurelionSol Ekko Jhin Taliyah Kled Illaoi Yorick Ryze Taric

I wouldn't say AurelionSol is that complex. He's just got a unique play style. Kind of like Singed .

Blåbæret5 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say AurelionSol is that complex. He's just got a unique play style. Kind of like Singed

Most of the pros can't use or play against Sol which is why he's more or less permabanned. Comparing Sol to Singed is like comparing a full suspension mountain bike to a stick with two wheels.

Toastersaot4 votes

{quoted}

Most of the pros can't use or play against Sol which is why he's more or less permabanned. Comparing Sol to Singed is like comparing a full suspension mountain bike to a stick with two wheels.

It used to be like that with Singed as well, but then they learned how to play against it. SSW Singed is proof of this.

ESeTyRC3 votes

Have an upvote.

Been playing relatively complex champions for a while, but found a new favorite in Urgot.

Imo, a very simple kit with plenty of strategic depth.

On the surface Urgot's skills are basically:

Q[press for damage] skillshot W[press for self-shield] E[press for homing Q] skillshot R[press to swap positions with target]

The nuances of the individual skills allow for strategic choices rather than twitch reactions. Passive procs on autos and Qs, can be spread to different targets to help team survive or focus a high priority target to reduce their damage

W can be used to mitigate damage or Urgot can take some damage and use W for its slow, rarely both

E can be used to shred armor from sturdy tanks or to fire homing Qs at squishies, rarely both

R can be used to lock down a target, bring them into your team, displace them from their position, to get Urgot into range of a squishy, to let Urgot serve as a temporary tank.. all depending on position and timing.

Honestly hoping they don't touch him with a rework.

NotCounter2 votes

no offense but this thread kinda screams "i'm bad and i want the game to be easy"

it reminded me of the threads on battlelog (battlefield forums) where people suggested to increase suppression, increase aim assist, etc to make the game far less skill based and more "tactical" and "strategic" (the biggest buzzwords in that world). then you look at their profiles and see a 12% accuracy and 0.8 k/d and you know exactly how to respond

the truth is, complex champions are more fun to watch and make the game more lively whether playing or playing against. who wants to play a game where every champion is nothing more than a stat check?

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

OHHHH! So chess players just want it easy, that is why they don't play ping-pong, got it :^)

Darth Agam1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=usFLmExU,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-23T22:05:28.171+0000)

Did you know different people have different tastes and win by different means? Amazing right!

Okay. So we have a game with 133 champions and growing. Yet for some strange reason, a vocal portion of the community seems to think Azir, Vayne, Riven, Ryze and Yasuo are the ideal design every champion should be aimed towards.

I see lots of buzz-words thrown around like &quot;Unhealthy&quot;, &quot;Interactivity&quot;, &quot;Hidden Power&quot;, &quot;Stat Check&quot;, etc. Basically all boiling down to one thing.

&quot;Your champion design values strategy/build choices/teamwork/meta-play/stat crunching over twitching better! They must be badly designed. Victory in this strategic, objective based game must ONLY be achieved through twitching better to get a higher KDA!&quot;

I hate to tell you. Not everyone wants to win by being Boxbox. Some of us want to perfect farming. Out position the enemy. Strategize better. Make better decisions. Have better team fight engagements. Coordinate better. Have better map awareness. Communicate better. Innovate our builds.

Or dozens of other methods of achieving victory. Besides just having superior twitch mechanics.

And with 133 champions in the game. Reworking all of the currently &quot;simple&quot; designs into convoluted, &#039;impossible to balance&#039;, mini-game obsessed, three hit passive champions. Isn&#039;t at all necessary.

You can go Gosu it up on Vayne. I will be over here being a tactician, shot caller and game knowledge nerd on Shyvana.

We can co-exist. So stop pretending twitch, feast or famine, high risk high reward designs. Are the only viable design.

It sounds like you want a turn based game or you can go play star craft. This is a MOBA, so "twitching" is part of the game. There are plenty of simple kit champions, so I'm not really sure what you're arguing.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

Starcraft isn't turn based. WTF you on mate? It is what popularized micro-mechanics and was a Korean heavy E-Sport before this game. But just like League, players could focus on micro-play or macro play. Only, that game was more intensive on both. Because in LIVE play(no turns) you have to control a base, several expansions and dozens or even hundreds of units.

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