"Counterplay"

Mira Arya Enthe··232 votes·20,398 views

A lot of people toss this word around.

https://c.martech.zone/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/you-keep-using-that-word.jpg

Counterplay is a very diverse and deep topic. I cannot cover every instance, every champion, every matchup, team comp, rune, mastery or item in the game, I don't have the time, skill or knowledge to. Nor would it even be helpful. Why? Because one thing counterplay isn't (and shouldn't be) is an off switch that just prevents that player from playing because you have knowledge of where their off switch is and how to press it.

This is why binary champions like Trynd, Udyr or Garen are both frustrating to fight but also next to useless when people know how to play against them. They have an off switch, if you cannot push it they are overwhelming but if you can they are laughably bad.

#So what is counterplay? Simply put, it is the methods and strategies in which you beat an enemy champion. Let's use some real life examples.

The counterbuild for archers are shields. You can defend from their damage, therefore mitigating their usefulness.

The counterplay for armor with a sword is half swording and hitting key weak points.

But not all counterplay is so blatant, some is subtle overarching strategies.

Nor does knowing said counterplay shut down the opponent instantly. Despite shields being thousands of years old, bows still saw use up until the repeating rifle was made. And if you half sword and aim for weak points the master warrior known as a knight will cover those weaknesses and punish you for trying to hit them.

Counterplay that is healthy is just that. Something that matches the skill of the players, letting them have methods of beating one another based on who plays the game better. But not completely shutting them down just because you know it.

#Types of counterplay

Dodge this Darius Q, Jhin ult, Ahri Charm, Yasuo Q, Ashe ult. This type of counterplay is one of the most blatant, well known and fair types. It matches player skill, predictions and planning to see who better plays around the enemy's kit. But part of what makes it so 'fair' is that it is easy to understand. There are many types of subtle but advanced forms of counterplay people ignore because it wasn't in the 'here and now' last 5 seconds leading up to their death. For example...

Lack of lane Sustain Pantheon mana, Riven HP regen, Taric mana, AurelionSol mana. Lacking sustain is another type of counterplay. Champions with this issue either have to play conservatively and aim for only using spells/taking damage when absolutely necessary. Or go hyper aggressive and hope to bring the enemy to their level of sustain by pushing them our of lane or killing them. It isn't the most blatant counterplay but if you know which champions have bad lane sustain you can plan your picks and strategies around wearing them down. Sadly this form of counterplay has had issues recently. Because normally if a champion builds runes, masteries or items to cover sustain issues it is meant to come with drawbacks, which modern itemization and masteries have minimized the drawbacks far too much.

Powerspikes Darius/Garen item 3071, Kassadin lvl6, Lucian item 3153, Vi item 3078, Shyvana lvl6 and item 3748, Riven lvl3. Powerspikes are moments in the game when that champion has had a sudden surge in power. For example when a Juggernaut gets their BC completed or when a Shyvana finished her Titanic Hydra. Knowing powerspikes is one of the most talked about forms of knowledge based counterplay and stat checking in LCS and Diamond+. And one of the least talked about in Bronze sadly. Understanding powerspikes is extremely important to defeating a champion in experienced hands. No you shouldn't go in 1v1 vs that Darius that just completed his BC, even if you were 'ahead'. No you cannot counterjungle that Vi now that her Tri-Force is built. Yes Riven is going to try to lvl3 all in you. And knowing these things allows you to deny them all of that power.

Powercurves Pantheon falls of if he didn't snowball, Gangplank scales insanely hard, Shyvana spikes mid game. Similar to powerspikes but more of a progressive trend. Some champions are only strong late game after they scale, some are strong early but garbage late game, some are fairly average throughout the game, some spike mid game then drop off, and some are strong at two periods but bad in another. Knowing a champion's scaling, kit, base damages, builds and strategies will let you determine when they are strong or weak and why. Powercurves can be complex, in some instances Tryndamere has an amazing early game, other times he is trash until he buys items. If you can force a team fight based matchup he falls off late game despite his insane damage, because his tools suck at team fighting. But if you put him in a scenario where split pushing and picks are viable he scales insanely hard. Pantheon falls off late game, unless you have low CC and he gets fed enough. Sivir has a weak early game, but some 2v2 matchups make that irrelevant. Understanding how and why powercurves function can be a massive asset just like powerspikes.

Macroplay Macroplay is a form of counterplay all champions have. This is the overall strategies, decisions and team cordination. Because it applies to ALL champions it isn't enough on it's own. And champions who, for the most part, are only countered by macroplay, usually end up quite unhealthy.

I am weak right now Jhin reloading, Annie if she misses her stun, Blitzcrank when his Q is on CD. Whether cooldowns or literally a red blinking light that says "hit me now" this is a form of counterplay a lot of people respect. It isn't for every champion nor should it be, not everyone needs a weakpoint you attack for massive damage. But this form of counterplay essentially says the champion is either vulnerable or incapable of doing their job right this moment. So they can be killed, pressured, harassed, ignored or so forth.

Counterbuilding Riven/Yasuo/Graves = item 3047, DrMundo/Vladimir/Aatrox = item 3123/item 3165, Karthus = item 3102/item 3157/item 3814. And many many other examples. Most champions have several runes, masteries or items that hurt them badly. Whether it be AS slows vs Ashe or GA vs a reset on kill champion. Most champions can be counterbuilt. Which you could say counterbuilding is the counter to them covering their weaknesses with builds. Riven builds Lifesteal? Build Tabi and take away her damage. Is an Annie dropping flash Tibbers every time it is off CD? Build a Banshee's, Scimitar or Zonya's. Counterbuilding, like building, is an essential part of LoL many low tier players or Riven mains ignore. It should be the first thing you consider in champion select after lockins are completed. And something you reconsider and adapt all game. I don't often build BotRK on Shy but man o man is it great vs a 7k HP Cho or when you need that extra burst and chasing power vs a slippery ADC. Riven should usually build offensive but if our team has a fed ADC and I got my ass kicked I am certainly ablidged to build specifically to keep their Yi away from our Jinx and Soraka.

Counterpicking SeeVladimir? Pick Riven. See Riven? Pick Kennen. See Zed? pick Lux(that one was a joke) Counterpicking is huge. In my opinion it is bigger than it should be. Ideally I'd like if players won on performance not picks. But there is no way to remove counterpicking as long as more than 1 champion exists.

Now understand. You are better off picking a champion you have 2000 games on into a bad matchup than a champion you have 2 games on because they are a counterpick. But realistically due to how picking and banning works, you should have at least a few picks you have experience in. And being able to pick a champion who can more easily, reliably and safely win a matchup is an important skill to have.

Summoner Spells and Keystones Katarina/RivenAkali = summoner 3. Swain = summoner 14. Sometimes you counterpick, sometimes you are counterpicked. But keep in mind either way that a lot of champions are especially weak to certain summoner spells. Evaluate your champion and team, and their champion and team. Decide carefully what summoner spells will give you the best chance of overwhelming their kit. Just keep in mind the other players on their team and yours, who may invalidate your selection. Keystones fall into the same group as summoner spells. Whether you pick TLD or SRS based on their pick, may be the difference between 0/12/0 and 12/0/0.

Blocking Ahri W, Caitlyn Ult, Blitzcrank Q, LeeSin Q. Some abilities can simply be blocked or absorbed. Whether this be by minions, champions or camps, abilities that can only hit a limited number of targets include the counterplay of just standing behind a willing Braum or not so willing Caitlyn shield.

Ranges and AoE Garen ult, Velkoz AoEs and abilities, Vayne condemn distance, Shen flash taunt. Sometimes a more binary form of counterplay(like Garen or Annie) but it does apply to essentially everything in the game. Knowing a champions ability and AA ranges and AoE sizes can greatly reduce the risks to you whether farming, tower diving, trading, contesting objects, taunting just out of reach. It doesn't matter what you are doing. Knowing how far they can hit you and how large of an area they can zone is a huge asset. But I don't want to just talk about ranges. I want to talk about respecting effective ranges. The distances at which an enemy is a danger to you and whether they can do sufficient damage before you reach safety.

The thing is, you cannot just know that Shen's Shadow Dash has a 600 range and call it good. You need to instinctively understand that he can taunt you from 1000 units away by combining it with flash(even more if he is flashing a wall and uses the halfway rule.)

You cannot just say "Oh Riven's dash has a 275 range I am safe." As a squishy Ashe farming a lane away from tower. You have to be acutely aware of how fast she can cover ground and how far she can Flash+E+Q3.

Understanding effective threat range is possibly one of the most important things you can do in LoL ESPECIALLY if you are a squishy champion. It is not enough to know their ability ranges. You MUST know how far away they can be a threat to your safety and escape routes.

Interact with my thingy Gangplank Barrels, Illaoi Tentacles, Heimerdinger Turrets, Teemo Shrooms, Zac blobs, Poppy Shieldy. Some champions have thingies to interact with. This is a form of counterplay both loved and hated. It can serve as bait, it can end up a waste of time, it can completely shut them down. But it works in general. Again it isn't for every champion but it is good when used correctly.

Don't let me touch you Fiora passive, Annie passive, Rumble heat levels, Gnar enrage, Vladimir Crimson Rush. Some champions have less subtle counterplay. These champions have things visible and broadcasted that say "Don't let me touch you right now". This design is iffy, it works most of the time but sometimes the RNG feels unfair(Fiora) or the counterplay is binary(Annie). It is a good system on paper but not meant for everyone.

Wind up times, stacks and delays Sion knockup, Thresh hook, Vi Q. Zed ult, Fizz passive, Darius passive, Vayne W. Huge flashing warning signs that they are about to take action, wind up times, stacks and forced delays are designed to let you know what is about to happen. It enhances the 'counterplay' feeling by giving you a longer period of reaction time so you need not be faker to live. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it isn't enough counterplay or is too much. It usually fairs pretty well however which is why Riot had been using and abusing it so much.

Generic counterplay These are most of the big forms of counterplay, but no doubt some are asking "Why didn't you name CC?". While some champions are particularly weak to hard crowd control(Riven, Yi, most ADCs) really you could argue that CC counters nearly every champion in the game except an ulting Olaf. It is a form of general counterplay but listing it specifically I might as well also list 'kill them!' as a major form of counterplay.

But to summarize briefly; CC prevents a champion from functioning to full effect, CC is a particularly noted counterplay to champions who rely on their mobility, dealing DPS, are easily kited, or need to kite.

Burst works well vs healing champions and squishies, dps overwhelms defenses in general, warding counters ganks and safe play counters aggressive champions. That would be the generic counterplay list.

If I missed anything please let me know.

#Every champion has counterplay Some it is just more subtle, they don't have blinking lights and warnings or huge gaping holes in their armor. They are more matchup specific and deep in their counterplay. They are no less fair to fight they just don't provide a blatant tutorials on what to do.

While others it is too binary, making their counterplay an on and off switch rather than a measure of comparative skill and strategy. Either you/your team knows the counterplay and executes it well turning them off entirely. Or you/your team don't know/execute their counterplay and there is zero you can do to stop them. These are the low tier stompers who scale badly with skill and tend to be worthless beyond Diamond.

Some champions temporarily end up so numerically powerful their counterplay vanishes or is mostly covered up. Or an item or mastery might cover it for them too well in a particular meta. This champions end up FotM and nerfed after being frustrating freelo for a while.

Not every champion needs every type of counterplay. Not every champion needs extremely obvious and telegraphed counterplay. But every champion does need counterplay, and if League is to be a measure of skill, strategies and teamwork it shouldn't be binary counterplay.

Having obvious counterplay doesn't automatically mean a champion is fun or fair to fight. Nor does it mean they shouldn't be nerfed when blatantly strong. On the same note a champion being strong doesn't mean they lack counterplay, saying 'x has no counterplay' doesn't make your argument that a champion is too strong or frustrating any more valid. In fact it often makes it less valid.

And just because a champion lacks blatant and well broadcasted counterplay doesn't mean they are binary or overpowered. It just means it requires you to learn more depth of the matchup and flex your critical skills both mechanical and mental.

#I hope this helped Well if you made it through the Great Wall. I dearly hope this served to educate or assist in understanding counterplay. If you already knew all this I hope you at least found it a good read and will share it with those who perhaps do not fully understand what counterplay is and how it works.

I don't claim to know everything, some pieces may be missing and some terminology may be wrong. But I sincerely tried on this one. Despite typing from a low battery phone...

#Thank you for reading With the best of intentions - Mira Astria Traveler.

218 Comments

RiotMeddler70 votes

Damn, nice write up, really well put!

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nbIlqoJL,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-01T18:29:11.498+0000)

typing from a low battery phone...

Extra damn.

One category that leaps to mind that could also be worth talking about is counterplay via team interactions. I think you've got some great analysis above, could expand it a bit further by looking more at non 1v1 interactions as well.

Azureee1 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMystic6 votes

There's a time and place for everything. But not now for asking about LB.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

Well my next planned post was going to be about warding. But I could expand on this a bit. Unfortunately it would be tomorrow evening due to my bank job. Goodnight my friend. Oh and thanks again for the kit update to Shyvana.

I also have edited out a lot of typos and poorly worded sentences. So that hopefully it looks a bit cleaner.

Oakleaf Ranger11 votes

I'm not a fan of that type of counter play since it relies on the thing that is the most random factor in game, your team.

Mira Arya Enthe15 votes

In the end it is a team game. Like it or not 4/5ths of your end result will always be decided by others for better or worse.

Oakleaf Ranger6 votes

To be clear,I hate when your only/best type of counter play requires your team to know what they are doing and being able to work together. That if they don't, your chances of victory become highly diminished because of it.

Zenthon Prime3 votes

One category that leaps to mind that could also be worth talking about is counterplay via team interactions.

It's been a few hours, but I'll jump in.

I see team-based counterplay in two areas. First, champions that have mechanical counterplay to them, but counterplay that isn't abuseable by most champions they face in lane. Take midlane assassins: extremely weak to tanks and massive amounts of CC. Well, the enemy mage certainly isn't a tank and their CC is usually pretty unreliable against mobility, but the jungle tank or the support could be of use. This also applies to "hard counter" matchups if another champion on your team is better at dealing with your lane opponent than you are. I don't find this to be a huge issue because champs with this counterplay also generally have other counterplay to them (TY assassin update), outside of a few bad cases (namely when a champion has 2 or fewer true counters like Cho / LB / Azir at their primes).

Then there's what I like to call splitpush counterplay. Basically, duelists who effectively nobody can deal with so you need two or more people every time. Nasus, Trynd, Jax, Fiora, etc. Personally, I feel that if this is the main (or god forbid, the only) way to deal with a champion, they're fundamentally broken. Fiora is by far the worst in this regard since the others at least have some specific counters even into lategame while she just......doesn't. Not a single champ really counters late-game Fiora in a fight from what I can tell. Not even one. And that's where I feel problems come in.

TL;DR: Teamplay counterplay is fine as long as it's not your primary or only option. Usually, the alternative option is counterpicking, and when that falls out the window you get the super-unhealthy infinite splitpush champs and "win lane win game" BS.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

Sticky pls.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted} Extra damn.

That made me laugh

TyrekGoldenspear47 votes

This is a well done and incredibly detailed post. Bonus points for doing it all on a bloody phone. :O

I'd like to suggest another category of counterplay.

##Come close and kill me Azir Lux (Most marksmen and artillery mages.) Xerath

A certain pattern comes to mind when studying these champions. They are all flimsy damage dealers that become really skittish when you get too close.

As an Azir main I can tell you that I don't like people getting too close. My kit is designed to work from afar, and like a Lux or Xerath, jumping on me will result in summoners or more likely death.

They all have tools in their kit to slow you down or self-peel, but getting on top of them pretty much guarantees the kill because their kits lack enough hard cc to effectively peel and they don't have the burst to kill you on the spot/outtrade you if you jump on them. The notable exception being an exceptionally fed Lux if she gets a snare and flashes out of range to ult you to death.

Every mage and marksman does not have this weakness however. Vayne comes to mind, as jumping on her usually results in your death unless you are lightning fast. Same with mages like Syndra. She can be jumped on but if she survives long enough to react, you'll be flying away from her and then pounded so hard Zed will get jealous.

If this just falls under general counterplay then that's fine too.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

HI TYREK!

TyrekGoldenspear8 votes

HI MIRA!

Glory ln Death5 votes

HI GLORY!

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

I want to make a special note for one character:

Yasuo

Because his counterplay is both brilliant and flawed. While you can argue about how good/bad he feels to play against, you cannot argue that he doesn't HAVE counterplay. Yasuo doesn't gain MR (or at least he gains a lot less than most melee characters). His shield can be popped with a single auto. His mobility is entirely reliant on enemy positions. His one major defensive CD (Windwall) is on a high CD and he doesn't build CDR in most builds. His ult is entirely reliant on knock-ups.

All this said, I feel the key thing to note about Yasuo is he has the ability to circumvent his weaknesses through proper play and utilizing his kit. No, this isn't just "I played so well I beat you", this is "I played so well I remove my weaknesses". He can block things that would pop his ability. He can time his dashes in a way that makes him harder to hit. He can make great use of scaling and buy items to cover his weaknesses even further. Yasuo is the definition of a character who grows immensely stronger the better skilled you are.

Of course, this also means people hate playing against him. After all, how do you fight a character that has the ability to beat your counterplay? How do you stop someone who has the skill gained from weeks of gameplay? etc. Honestly every character should be designed like Yasuo, with the ability to cover their own weaknesses through sheer skill. Unfortunately, Yasuo is one of the few (perhaps only one) and because of this, he ends up feeling unfair.

Enloct18 votes

1 It can be popped with a single auto but he still ends up tankier than everyone else with the shield and it functionally serves as sustain. It is both more tankiness and more sustain than any random character gets. A lot more.

2 Yes that's exactly the problem. He doesnt _actually _ have weaknesses. It is just possible for him to fuck up.

3 Naturally they would hate playing against him. How do you fight someone who can "outplay their counterplay?" You can't, by definition. As for other champion designs - Every character or no character. All or nothing. League would be a radically diffferent game if they all were, but at least it would be fair. Since everyone else can't do that, Yasuo is the odd man out that needs to be changed. And that isn't _feeling _ unfair. That _is _ unfair.

Angrychickén7 votes

this isn't just "I played so well I beat you", this is "I played so well I remove my weaknesses".

Isn't this the idea though, if you remove weaknesses, I beat you. So if I play well on something like say, Oriana I remove the weakness of my ball being the limitation. It is where I need it best, zoning the enemy and near the enemy minions at the same time. I play well, I can solve my problems, beating you.

Tobias Brackner9 votes

Thank you <3

The Gameplay boards needs more good, specific advice for general gameplay instead of just "wah wah Yasuo "

Mody bird6 votes

Holy shit dude respect for making this

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

Note: Cleanse cannot remove suppressions.

Suppressions specifically prevent the activation of Summoner Spells, so Cleanse isn't really useful against Malzahar.

Mordepool4 votes

Quality Post by a Quality Dragon

Angrychickén4 votes

This is very nice

And, if I see princess bride, I upvote.

Best princess EU3 votes

**Malz is countered by cleanse ** LOL

on the other hand you forgot a counterplay

"block this" yes i'm talking about Ahri W that hits the nearest enemy and she can't decide which target will be hit

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Ah yes. You are correct I forgot body blocking.

Edit: Added body blocking.

Teridax683 votes

OP is correct, even the most unhealthy champion in the game typically has some counterplay, even if it's as basic as staying away from them and sticking next to teammates at all times, and one of the reasons why many players cannot identify counterplay on a champion is because it's more subtle, i.e. based on timing, power spikes, proximity and vision, etc. However, I think this is a problem that should be addressed at Riot, and not just the playerbase: over the years, the devs have taken great pains to heighten clarity of interaction through range indicators, visual and sound cues, so if a form of counterplay is difficult to grasp for a very large amount of players, that is an issue that needs to be solved through better in-game delivery, and not simply a PSA that will only be read by a select few Boards users.

I think one of the underlying issues with Boards is that, while some of the complaints here are excessive and ignorant, many of the counter-threads on here focus exclusively on shifting the blame onto the playerbase -- it's the player's fault for not being aware of X champion's counterplay, or Y mechanic, or whatever. To some extent, this is justified, but it also fails to grasp the scale at which some problems are present, and how League still isn't really all that good at teaching players how to improve. For sure, many players simply refuse to grow, learn and admit to their own mistakes, but I think many more players are perfectly willing to learn, yet have no real point of comparison they could use to determine what they're doing wrong. It's obviously not good for players, who end up being much more frustrated than they should be, but it's also not good for the devs, who can't really draw from a larger pool of common knowledge in order to create subtler counterplay and patterns of interaction.

Even at the pro level, players who mained a champion in one competitive season can end up completely forgetting what they do in another, let alone how they spike and play on a macro level, so expecting the same of an average player might be too much. While building up this large knowledge base alone can work wonders on the e-peen, having that as a requirement for proper play is a huge deterrent to new, returning or even more casual players, all of whom end up being confused with what they're supposed to be aware of at any given time, particularly since those requirements can change from patch cycle to patch cycle. The tutorial is infamous for being almost exactly wrong in everything it tells you, but even the death recap, after all this time, does absolutely nothing to inform players of the damage they took, let alone tell them how to improve. The sooner Riot starts working on making all of its counterplay clearer, and starts developing real tools to teach its players how to learn and play better, and the sooner the game's potential for enjoyment will drastically increase.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

While I agree generally, not every champion needs to be Sion and Gangplank. If they were the game would lose a ton of reflex, skill, strategy, learning curve and depth.

League is, after all, a strategy fighting game. It is about learning, outsmarting and then outplaying with the knowledge and strategies you have. Your mechanical skill a conduit to improving and refining your performance and execution.

If players aren't willing to learn, theorize, strategize and number crunch. They lose, whine on the boards and raise public perception that there is a problem. If something is more complex to defeat more people will be lazy and whine about it.

Meamwhile those who are willing to learn and practice in a strategic fighting game. Win and are happy. So they don't post. But do see all these other posts, assume there is a problem and perhaps even borrow it as their excuse as well.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

While I agree generally, not every champion needs to be Sion and Gangplank.

This is incorrect, Sion and Gangplank are best champions. :^) Mandatory Kappa because Internet

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

But then they wouldn't be unique ;P

The Deckowner3 votes

I feel like most of these doesn't apply to fiora...u cant counter pick/build against her, her resource cost and cd are also low, and u cant dodge her passive proc, etc...

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

item 3047 reduces AA damage, she needs to AA you to damage.

item 3075 damages them every time they hit you. This means Fiora has to proc vitals to stay even.

Bait Riposte, and then CC. Run if you're ulted, and avoid letting her chain her dashes.

Stay grouped, and do not try to 1v1 her. Hell, avoid 2v1s in late, and possibly even 3v1s. Treat her as a 700 stack Nasus, and plan accordingly.

MrryZ4 votes

Tabis doesn't apply to her vitals and if she isn't hitting them then she's easy to 1v1 thornmail is a joke against her, tbh thornmail is a joke against everyone rn and trying to avoid letting her chain dashes is more on the fioras part than yours. Best advice to counter a fiora is don't even interact with her in lane and as you said run directly away from her if you're ulted

Bârd6 votes

Vitals hurt, and they hurt a lot, but 71% of Fioras damage is still physical.

dEAdbUs2 votes

Then how she counters tanks?

SH Azykan2 votes

because she has assured damage vs them. Also notice how most fioras build a black cleaver. If the large majority of her damage wasnt physical the item wouldnt be ideal on her and you would see more trinity force fiora, kinda like camille, builds.

Fiora also has a good lane vs most tanks, as she can constantly harass them and they dont tend to do the most damage meaning she can sustain off most trades. Pick someone with high damage/burst and if she doesnt use her W properly she gets run over HARD

Report for Wuju3 votes

Wind up times, stacks and delays Fizz passive

You mean the passive of his W ?

Mira Arya Enthe12 votes

Do I LOOK like a Fizz player? Probably tbh. Was typing on a dying phone and didn't have time to proof read every detail. I'll just wait for Penns to correct me if I fucked it up.

crippler383 votes

his normal passive is he takes less basic attack damage and ignores unit collision

dEAdbUs2 votes

So what was the point of this post? Got no answer how to dodge Yasuo's Q while he can dash to you and cast it in melee range. How to dodge Darius Q while he can get MS boost from: passive, Black Cleaver, Deadmans plate.

Melvear12 votes

{quoted}

So what was the point of this post? Got no answer how to dodge Yasuo's Q while he can dash to you and cast it in melee range. Respect his range through use of minions, notice that he's got his stacks ready, play accordingly? How to dodge Darius Q while he can get MS boost from: passive, Black Cleaver, Deadmans plate. _If you're not going to evade his blade, might as well get hit but the shaft. _

Sometimes, things aren't spoonfed but you can get the information you need through extrapolation and even thinking about how things work yourself!

PureSilvrr1 votes

Can you add warding? Like knowing the enemies position and making a decision based on that.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

That is under the generic counterplay section. While important it is far from champion specific. It falls in line woth advice like "CC them" or "Damage them". It applies to everyone and is just a general part of playing LoL. Tho I plan to make a post purely about warding another time.

Squishie1 votes

Annie if she misses her stun. how exactly does that happen?

Bârd6 votes

In terms of actual missing,

Annie does Flash-Tibbers, but your Ezreal blinked out of it during the brief cast time on Tibbers.

More often, her stun is wasted rather than missed.

Annie wants to hold her stun, but she also wants to farm with Q.

Disulfiram2 votes

Misclick a Q on a minion, used spells to farm (you can force this by simply pushing the lane), and you can actually dodge a Flash+Tibbers if you expected it and your fingers are fast enough (+your ping is low).

Squishie1 votes

first, the only way to dodge tibbers flash is to predict it, since it's instant cast. second, how am i supposed to push the lane if she is already giving me enough trouble by standing there with her passive? I mean if i just get in range I'll die.
Doesn't seem fair does it ?

Disulfiram1 votes

{quoted}

second, how am i supposed to push the lane if she is already giving me enough trouble by standing there with her passive? I mean if i just get in range I'll die.

Unless you're playing Yasuo mid (in which case honestly you deserve to be raped by Annie), pretty much every other mid champion either can push without getting in Annie's danger zone (Lux, Xerath, Ziggs, Viktor, Anivia, etc) or is a better roamer (Diana, Talon, Kassadin, etc).

Cho'Gath deserves special mention here, because he both has the means to push safely and becomes way too tanky for Annie to actually burst down.

Squishie1 votes

first,I don't play yasuo, I hate melee in mid. second, it's not easy to push the lane versus annie early game, you will run out of mana very quickly and you will get PUNISHED for doing that. Meanwhile annie can farm safely with her q, last hitting munions.

Disulfiram2 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile annie can farm safely with her q, last hitting munions.

If she's farming with Q then she's not holding onto her stun, which is what we wanted to achieve in the first place by pushing.

dEAdbUs3 votes

Her range is pretty short, so Annie need to find 'sweet spot' for ult-stun when enemy team is all in one point and can't stop Annie, and her own team is close and ready. Sometimes it leads to missing.

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