And People Say Elo Hell Doesn't Exist

Warhawk373·Jul 13, 2016·2 votes·2,066 views

This is a screenshot of one of my friends recent matches in ranked. This just proves that there are in fact some matches that are impossible to carry. He is Brand, and although his score isn't good (10 deaths), it was probably unavoidable due to the other team just being so fed. I'm not trying to argue or anything but I just think that all those posts saying "if you good enough you can rise in rank" are not true. Yes some people get lucky and end up with good teams and do rise in rank fast, and if you play 500 ranked matches, you would definitely go up in rank. But I also think the matchmaking makes it extremely difficult to do so. If you look at him, he is the lowest elo in the whole match, how does that even work???? I'm not saying theres a real difference in the skill of a bronze 5 vs bronze 3, but for real, wtf is up with that silver 4? If that's how duo que works how come when me and my friend duo que it sets us up with people in my rank instead of bronze people.

49 Comments

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20164 votes

Elo hell does not exist.

Why? Well for one the MMR of both teams is always the same (Especially in Lower Elos). So if we say you the player deserve a higher rank, then obviously your better then everyone else right? (You also wont troll, rage or feed right)

Considering that; That means your team has the advantage, given a few games maybe 25-50, you should easily climb, because your chance of winning is higher then that of the enemys team (Because your obviously better).

YOur not going to win every game, but if your as good as you say you are, you should win most. And be in your correct ELO after maybe 75-100 matchs.

fullbacks63Jul 13, 20162 votes

MMR doesnt reflect the players skill.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20162 votes

It does, you can have significantly higher mmr then that of your own rank. (My silver smurfs mmr is around semi high gold mmr).

Elo hell is non-existent, its just an excuse for bad players.

fullbacks63Jul 13, 20163 votes

Maybe in higher ranks, Im plat V on my other account with high MMR there too but for someone who just starts league, gets the unfortunate loss cycle.

When I played my promos on another account, I won 1, got literally a tryndamere troll the next game who fed, (said hes being paid to do this), got the same guy the following game, dodged, probably affected my LP some how, had a couple feeders. remember as you do worse in your promos you start getting matched with worse and worse players.

As your mmr drops youre being matched with worse and worse players until you reach the depths of absolute trash. Theres people who belong there, and then theres team players who can play. Now it depends on what ratio is on each team, if youre paired with a team of clowns and the enemy is paired with some people as good as (you), they are going to win.

Its hard for me to describe in words as it would be confusing, but basically lets take my girlfriends friend, she takes heimer dinger, sets up turrets, dies like 8-9 times in 5 minutes. her team is going to call her crap, obviously, She gets mad and starts playing even worse. With someone feeding that badly shes going to drop to bronze V (she somehow started bronze II). On the other hand there was me, Who got unlucky for a couple of games and it got worse and worse.

To honestly be able to carry every game of bronze V its going to take someone atleast in high silver low gold Elo since games are so mixed.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20162 votes

Heres the thing, you the player as you claim, are always better then everyone around you correct? Since you dropped MMR and are obviously in a lower tier better then everyone else. That in fact literally means you have a higher chance of winning, now given you aren't shit at the game; You can easily climb out of Bronze in a couple of games (IF your actually good the System will skip you tiers).

If you are infact better then those around you have a higher chance of winning always. Considering your in such low mmr; What players there fails to realize is that you do Suck at the game. If your in Bronze you are terrible at the game, no excuses, you are just really bad.

But people don't like to admit it, they yell "ELO Hell" around, like it exists, instead of trying to improve. Bronze is knowing the very basics of the game, if you can't climb out then you aren't improving and are just bad.

fullbacks63Jul 13, 20161 votes

You dont understand. There's a 5 v 5 champion system. Theres a legitimately large mixture of people in bronze V, trolls, idiots, and then there's genuinely good people (silver material).

Assuming someone Isnt plat or diamond level, youre snowballing those games off of whos enemy sucks worse.

So if everyone is bronze V in a game And the top laner on blue is good, and the top laner on red is a total moron, blue is going to get fed as fuck.

On the other hand If I am the good player on red team mid, and the enemy blue is just semi decent enough to stick to tower and not let me get fed as fast, then top lane is gaining a huge gold advantage over me hard to make up for.

Bronze V elo depends on the quality and number of idiots youre being met with.

As a plat my only way I am able to play bronze games with my girlfriend is picking a snowballish early game champion (volibear), ganking the shit out of lanes that push, making sure the enemy jungler is constantly dead, keeping an eye on all the lanes and minimap every 10 seconds. Pinging my laners to make up for missed MIA's. pre-killing during ganks and helping my laners get somewhat fed. MAKING MY TEAM CONFIDENT IN ME SO I CAN TRY TO ORDER THEM AROUND.

Ill tell you carrying a bronze game is hell, if youre paired with idiots. I lose 1/10 bronze games I play with my girlfriend.

Elo hell does exist, and people can exit bronze but it doesnt happen just with the blink of an eye. It takes time. Tbh silver bronze not much different. There are some silvers who luck out and there are bronzes with shitty luck.

All the steps I do as a jungler are above and beyond what is needed in upper elos like gold and plat since they are semi decent.

Also explain this guys game, the teams MMRs mustve matched but his team was absolute trash and the enemy did well in all lanes.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20161 votes

Heres the thing:

This is a 5v5 game and assuming both teams have the same mmr, then there is a 50/50 chance of each winning right? Okay, now assuming that You the player are generally better then everyone else, that 50/50 winrate will tilt up, increasing your chances of winning (Depending on how much better a player you are, if only by a small margin it wont change much).

Now the fact that you have a higher chance of winning; Given enough games you will climb, if you do not that, that means: You did not improve, and you were never better then the ELO you are currently in.

This is a fact, you are not just magically matched with trolls or w/e more then anyone else (You also have a lower chance of a troll/feeder, etc. Since you yourself couldn't possibly be one)

Given what I just stated above, you should climb if you are in fact better on average then your teams mates, sure you can't win every game. You just have to win most (You also gain a lot more MMR if you are indeed better, my Silver account gains like 25+ LP for wins and loses 10-13 for losses, and I've only played like 20 games on it).

Elo Hell does not exist; It is just an excuse. This has been proven many times in many scenarios, the only reason people continue to claim it, is because they refuse to get better at the game.

fullbacks63Jul 13, 20161 votes

Whats what Im saying, 50/50 chance is not how it works. They claim your enemy will be the same skill set as you, not true. They will have lost the same number of games as you.

Your actual team comp is luck. When I was in bronze elo I had about 15 games in a row where I actually had to 1 v 5 the entire enemy team because my team did nothing. Being able to 1 v 5 takes someone of atleast gold elo.

Elo hell does exist. All my friends who learn to solo carry out of bronze go straight to gold, because someone who can solo carry is a hell of alot better than a group of silvers.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

The problem I have with your response is that you see the same response all the time and they always have a negative tone to it, saying "its just an excuse for bad players". Actual good players don't go around telling other players that they are simply bad at the game. Your platinum so obviously you think anyone in bronze is bad. But I bet you have been playing league a long time, getting a higher rank is harder than it used to be, yeah they reset ranks at the end of the seasons, but I bet you didn't start out in bronze.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20161 votes

Its not negative, its the truth that players need to realize to get better. If your in Bronze or Silver w/e. You need to realize that you are shit at the game. In season 4 I was stuck in Silver for over 600 ranked games, the very next season I reached plat; Know why? Because I finally over came the fact that I was shit and needed to improve, I stopped raging, blaming others, etc.

Once you can admit that you are shit at the game; You will do better. The first step to getting better is admiting your own mistakes.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I know my friend is bad compared to you and other high elo players but he is better than bronze, yet cant get out of bronze, simple as that.

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20161 votes

If he is better then Bronze he has a higher chance of winning; Higher chance of winning = climbing. Climbing = gettting out of Bronze.

I get the point that maybe they are a bit better then that of there rank; But in the end small marginal differences in skill wont really get you climbing. Considering how the system works, you have to be consistently better then your teammates to climb, but a lot of lower elo players such as your friend have difficulty with that (raging, tilt, not accepting mistakes etc.)

Edit: Also your friend doesnt' really have many games played. For the system to really grasp a good area of his ranking. 36 games, with a 41% win rate. Once he plays 75-100 and he's still around a 41% win rate, its more of him being bad then anything else.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

That's true, I have told him he needs to play more games. Also though, I don't think you can say being better gives you a better chance of winning. I think the only thing in league that is left to chance is whether you get a good team or not, and since the game is heavily reliant on teamwork, then a lot of whether you win or loose rides on chance. With that being said though, I also believe that you can be really good at calling shots and talking to the team and turn a not so good team into a decent team, and I think thats what solo que is all about.

MohawkBirdJul 13, 20162 votes

[deleted]

Guy Fox TeemoJul 13, 20162 votes

That guy was a boosted Diamond player then, or just didn't belong in his ELO if he was having a rough time climbing out.

fullbacks63Jul 13, 20164 votes

It does exist. People dont realize just because youre being matched with people of similar MMR doesnt mean youre being matched with people of equal skill

UmioJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It does exist. People dont realize just because youre being matched with people of similar MMR doesnt mean youre being matched with people of equal skill

holy shite - someone finally said it

PowderkeggJul 13, 20161 votes

I'm confused, you contradicted yourself by saying elo hell exists but saying you'll go up in rating if you play 500 games.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

When I say "elo hell" I don't mean an elo that is IMPOSSIBLE to get out of, I just mean its more difficult than I personally think it should be. I could see taking 500 matches to get from gold to diamond, but to get from bronze to silver should be easier. Sorry for the confusion.

WukongMainJul 13, 20161 votes

"This just proves that there are in fact some matches that are impossible to carry"

This is true for all elos. But remember, at the end of the day winning or losing doesn't matter. Remember to improve in all the games you play. And even games like this that are impossible to carry can end up being beneficial.

39 minute game, creep score of 139. Something your friend could improve on is csing. Both throughout the laning phase and into the later stages of the game.

While this game may have been impossible to carry in your eyes and hes. During the beginning minutes of the game and probably well into the 15ish minute mark the "feeding" lanes probably had little to no impact on your friends lane. Giving him 15 undisturbed minutes of improving. Focus on the minutes of these impossible games where the game was still even.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

I disagree with one thing, that the other lanes being fed didn't affect his lane early game. I don't know how it is in a higher elo but in the lower one's people play a lot more aggressive, if they kill their lane opponent then they will walk right through jungle without any vision and gank, which will result in less cs for the person being ganked. I personally don't think he's that good either because he never admits to needing improvement, but at the same time I definitely don't think he belongs in bronze 5.

WukongMainJul 13, 20161 votes

everyone, even LCS pros need improvement.

What i mean by other lanes feeding having no impact on his lane is Up till the moment he gets ganked the gold the enemy team got has no affect on hes lane.

what i'm saying is focus on improving that part of his play. Because that part of his play will be in every game.

what what did you mean by " if they kill their lane opponent then they will walk right through jungle without any vision and gank, which will result in less cs for the person being ganked. "?

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

Well for example, you don't ever see LCS players roam from top lane to mid to gank unless they either have teleport, or full awareness of where the enemy jg is. However, in lower elo top lane will walk right though jg to gank mid even with no vision. It makes playing mid with a bad team hard because your lane will get ganked more often. I don't know if that explains it any better.

Also I see what your saying now about how cs is a part of every match so that needs to be improved, good advice.

WukongMainJul 13, 20161 votes

That does explain it better.

Hmm... Though i think that could easily be solved by having map awareness to see he isn't top anymore. Or bot lane not bot anymore.

For example, what if as a mid laner you bought a pink ward and warded say...That little bush to the bot of mid?. The tiny one between the dragon pit and the long larger one?

With map awareness this would see ganks coming from bot side much sooner.

and also with map awareness see that the top laner isn't top anymore, he would be able to move to the side that has the pink ward, far away from top lane. being further from top side bush he should be safe from top laner killing him. With the pink in bot side bush he should be safe to hang further from top since he'll see top coming much sooner. All while exercising caution while top is mia. He should be safe.

Or maybe you can take a different approach and ward further up river of top side and see him coming much sooner, Maybe coordinate with your jungler to roam up while he is on hes way mid and quickly take him out 2v1? :D

I'm bad at explaining things sometimes, so if you didn't get what i mean i'd be happy to show you in game? :D

And yeah the csing part. Always try to find ways to improve in every game! even the unwinnable ones. That way even losses can become victories because you would have become a better player :D

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

The thing is, in this case the jg wasn't too good (maybe I'm wrong, just going off what my friend said), that means it will be difficult to set up a gank to kill a roaming top lane. Then also, yeah you can have map awareness and prevent deaths, but that still hinders your ability to farm because you will be pushed back and loose cs to the turret. If I know him, he probably wasn't communicating with his team very well so there were probably many things he could have done differently and I know its stupid to blame it on the team but dang that matchmaking can be tough. It cant be perfect but sometimes it seems like it doesnt even come close to having 10 people all with the same skill in one lobby.

Also referring back to when you said winning and loosing doesn't matter. Normally I would agree but in this case its not about trying to better yourself to get to platinum, its just about getting out of bronze. Idk if you've ever been there, but even in normals your team will blame you for no reason just because they get on lolking and see that your bronze. Its sad really that people are that toxic so I see why players are constantly searching to get out of those lower elos.

WukongMainJul 13, 20161 votes

See, that's something to improve upon. Maintaining a decent awareness of the map while also keeping up in cs. And you can get every minion under your turret if you do it correctly, also something to improve on.

oh i've been there. Was even stuck in bronze 3 - 5 for a short time :D.

What's funny is...The fastest way to get out of bronze ironically, is to simply not care about winning or losing...and focus on improving your fundamentals. It's ironic that the fastest way to start winning is to not care about winning or losing...But it really is true.

If you focus on improving your fundamentals you will find it extremely easy to get out of bronze.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

Ive never heard it put that way, thats good advice

WukongMainJul 13, 20161 votes

i try xD. Fundamentals alone can carry you far above bronze :). Even Silver will not be able to hold you back. As for gold and beyond i cannot say for i have not climbed beyond Gold V yet.

Notice how everyone not in bronze says it's easy to climb out of bronze? It's cause their fundamentals are at a level that allows them to simply win games with ease. They don't mean it's easy to climb out of bronze as a bronze player, cause that's so hard lol. You don't have the fundamentals practiced enough to make it easy. So unless you practice them bronze will always be difficult.

Everytime sometimes comes like...Looking at your minimap hinders your ability to cs, Well you basically just told yourself you need to work on that. Spend tons of games learning to cs. Get csing down. You want to be able to cs efficiently with zero map awareness. Once you got that down. Start slowly looking at the minimap more and more with each game until you can have decent map awareness and still cs at the level you were when you weren't looking at the minimap.

It's all about perceptive... Instead of saying this is too hard or i can't do that or that is impossible. Go practice it until it is no longer too hard.

LegitBusinessmanJul 13, 20161 votes

Dude, your CS is awful. Illaoi died less than you and was ultra farmed. You only have 3 items done in a 40 minute game. You have the lowest farm of any mid, top, or adc in that game. If you had even average farm youd have an extra item and half if not more in 40 minutes.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

This is my friends match by the way, not me, I don't like ranked because its too competitive and people worry about it too much, but I can see why lower elo's are so frustrated. Also I don't believe CS is EVERYTHING, obviously the more the better, but I don't think him having 1 or even 2 items more would have made him win. Yes it could have helped but the point I'm trying to make is that some matches are just unwinnable in solo que.

Slack KingJul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This is a screenshot of one of my friends recent matches in ranked. This just proves that there are in fact some matches that are impossible to carry. He is Brand, and although his score isn't good (10 deaths), it was probably unavoidable due to the other team just being so fed. I'm not trying to argue or anything but I just think that all those posts saying "if you good enough you can rise in rank" are not true. Yes some people get lucky and end up with good teams and do rise in rank fast, and if you play 500 ranked matches, you would definitely go up in rank. But I also think the matchmaking makes it extremely difficult to do so. If you look at him, he is the lowest elo in the whole match, how does that even work???? I'm not saying theres a real difference in the skill of a bronze 5 vs bronze 3, but for real, wtf is up with that silver 4? If that's how duo que works how come when me and my friend duo que it sets us up with people in my rank instead of bronze people.

I carried my buddies outta bronze, then left them in silver to suffer

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

Personally I think ranked is to competitive and toxic so I just did provisional then left it. However I think he wants to get out of bronze just because it looks bad to be in bronze 5. Even if you do really good in normals but your team looses, people will blame it on you for the sole reason that you are bronze 5, which is dumb because there are plenty of players in bronze who probably deserve better.

warpenguin555Jul 13, 20161 votes

you clearly are not challenger. challenger is the only elo hell

DGArchitectJul 13, 20161 votes

135 cs at 40 mins xd

TeslynJul 13, 20161 votes

Heres the thing.. i talked to enough bronze players to tell you this. I say .. build this 1 item every game and you will increase your win rate.

funny thing is i go through their match history after a week and they never build it. there is a reason they are bronze.

UmioJul 13, 20161 votes

To make a fair evaluation on this match we would need the replay.

Kei143Jul 13, 20161 votes

if you have games that are impossible to carry, it also means there are games there are impossible to loose.

Look at things this way:

There are 30% of games you will loose no matter what 30% of games are impossible to loose 40% of the remainder of the games you have an influence over with your decision making / communication.

Just need to win those 40% of the games to get out of your so called ELO Hell. If you can't win those games, you kidda are in the correct ELO.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

Yeah but if your putting it in terms like that then its probability, That means there's also a chance that 9/10 games in a row are in that 30% loosing column. Or 10/10 for that matter. And yeah theres also a chance that 10/10 are in that 30% winning column but in this case my friend seems to be getting stuck in those loosing game. That would also mean that someone who won 10 games in a row, just got lucky because according to that theory they should have lost at least 3. I've seen people explain it that way before but I think all that does is prove that the matchmaking system is screwed up if 60% of the games you play, you don't have any control over.

Kei143Jul 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think all that does is prove that the matchmaking system is screwed up if 60% of the games you play, you don't have any control over.

That thought process is fine if everyone was in the ELO they are supposed to be in.

Got to encourage those bad people with 100% winnable games.

Then again, if they throw and loose that 100% winnable game, then their MMR will take a big hit. Same goes to the 100% loss games and you won.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

I dont follow,what your saying. So now your saying that those games in the 30% columns can be changed, that would contradict everything you said in the first post. Also thats the point im trying to get across here, everyone is not in the elo they are supposed to be in.

Kei143Jul 13, 20161 votes

Imagine this:

Match making thinks you belong in Silver 3. You are now in a "unwinnable match" against Gold 5s. If you win that match, match making will be like "wtf, hes not supposed to win that, ok hes not in the right ELO". Thus you'll start getting +30LP per match.

Lets say you are now in a "100% win match" where you are matched with Bronze 2s. But loose, match making will be like "wtf, hes not supposed to loose" and thus your MMR takes a big hit and now you start loosing -30LP when you loose a match.

The gains and losses of LP for the rest of your climb depends on those. When you win / loose what is intended then match making considers you to be in the "right elo" and you gain / loose 18-21 LP.

I guess you can say, win /loose those impossible games and you'll fast climb / drop fast. If not, then you are probably within the correct ELO and up for a slow climb.

ELO hell means you are in the right ELO, that is all.

Warhawk373Jul 14, 20161 votes

That makes much more sense, thanks for clearing it up

3rd AgeJul 13, 20161 votes

your friend plays yasuo and lee sin the most in ranked

2 of the most difficult mechanical-based champs in the game. His most played champ in ranked is 29% winrate as yasuo in 7 games with a KDA of 1.0.

You are blinded because of your friendship with him. He is just straight up bad. He 100% deserves to be in bronze 5.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

Maybe your right, but from talking to many low elo players i definitly think playing in bronze elo can be more difficult than playing in silver sometimes due to the chances of you getting a troll or just extremly bad players on your team is higher.

3rd AgeJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe your right, but from talking to many low elo players i definitly think playing in bronze elo can be more difficult than playing in silver sometimes due to the chances of you getting a troll or just extremly bad players on your team is higher.

yes this is true, bronze is the hardest to climb out of when comparing it to silver. What adds onto difficulty is if the person trying to climb is also part of the "extremly bad players". Eventually he will climb, when he picks up easier champions mechanically, learns better decision making, wards more, gets better at cs, etc. It will take many games though. Most people just create a new account after proficiently learning the game, because it's easier to place in above bronze than climb out of bronze 5 with a below 50% winrate (so losing more lp than gaining).

vampirekid13Jul 13, 20161 votes

your friend definitely does not deserve anything other than b5 with those stats.

10 deaths? lol. ok. 139 cs in 40 minutes?

im sorry im not impressed by his damage done with an AOE burst mage, simply because its not impressive.

he needs a lot more work to deserve to climb out of there. and he needs to realize he makes bad choices that get him killed and underprioritize CSing.

also, just because you lose a game that is unwinnable doesnt justify the concept of elo hell. one game proves nothing, everyone has unwinnable games, but the vast majority of games are not unwinnable. ive seen diamond friends drop games in bronze, the game was simply unwinnable, but that one game meant nothing because they still won the following 15 games.

elo is based on trends. and 1 game is not a trend.

Warhawk373Jul 13, 20161 votes

I understand, but just go onto his profile on lolking and look at a few ranked matches, more that 1/15 are like this. And the reason his stats are so low in this match is because the other team was so fed they could just turret dive him. I don't like when people blame the team but in this case (and a few others) it really wasn't his fault. You cant expect someone who should probably be in silver to go 10/0 against a team who's that fed.

KarthanRequiemJul 14, 20161 votes

Just accept it. There are occasional games that you cannot carry. You are only 1 person on the team, if everyone else on the enemy team is trying to carry you can't win that game. I'd say at most 1 in 20 games are unwinnable but they happen. That does not mean there is elo hell, because at almost every elo there can be that 1 in 20 game that is unwinnable.