I miss botlane ADC/Support :c

Mira Arya Enthe··69 votes·4,835 views

In S2 I joined this game. I immediately picked up Xerath, Malz and Leona because they looked like badasses. Anyway, I played Leona AD mid like an idiot thinking I needed to buy a sword, shield, armor, boots, necklace and sunfire cap facepalm. I played MMOs before LoL forgive me. Anyway, once I learned she was a support I moved to bottom lane with her, I also bought Soraka and Taric. I grew to love support, so much that when I bought two ADCs it was the ones who were high utility, one secondary labeled as a support, Ashe and Sivir.

Now mostly I liked mid, because Xerath and Malz were badasses. But being the accommodating gal I am, I have always played a ton of support and ADC as I was always willing to fill, and still am. I have to say, some of my favorite games in LoL have been playing as a support or ADC, the feeling of mutual benefit, cooperation and team play. Both of these classes count on their teams, and if their teams protect them(in the case of ADC and squishy supports) or bring the hurting for them(in the case of peel/tank support), they return a lot of value to their team.

To date, my favorite bot laners are Ashe, Leona, Sivir, Soraka, Nami, Morgana and Nautilus.

That said, during S6 I played almost no bot lane, because I was trying to do some stuff in ranked and earn my mastery points on Shyvana I missed out on due to a 1 year break from LoL during late S5 and early S6. Now returning to bot lane I am utterly miserable. Here are the things I have found frustrating.

  1. Jhin has been excessively meta since post release buffs, we went through this with Lucian, only Jhin hasn't been gutted. I am glad for that because I dislike champion gutting, but for the love of Urf he wins 25% of all LoL matches, he is present in 50%+ of all League games and wins 50%+ of those. Thankfully this appears to be being addressed, I sure hope it does enough considering most lanes right now are Jhin/Brand, Jhin/MF, Jhin/Malz, Jhin/Vel'Koz, Jhin/Zyra, Varus/Janna(Except when I have a ban as I always ban Jhin or Varus). Which brings me to the next reason I hate playing bot lane anymore.

  2. Mage supports. So I love niche things and off meta, I was all for defending that Singed support guy even though I'd never want to play with him. I tried silly crud like AP Shyvana and I have played 4 games as Ashe mid recently, winning 3 of them. But the mage support thing bugs me, here is why. Mage supports trivialize real supports while also adding to damage bloat. Real supports, with the exception of some niche off meta picks, don't do well in other lanes. Even when they do, Riot nerfs that gameplay style(Lulu top, Janna mid, Sona mid, Bruiser Soraka etc). Supports are mutually beneficial with ADCs as they do well sharing lane, covering one another's weaknesses and while one is the most gold hungry class in the game the other needs almost none. Mages however, go mid, top, jungle(lol). No mention of Ziggs ADC because that is a specific niche. These mages should be balanced around scaling instead of base damage so they can go in their intended lane, instead of pushing supports out of bot lane. Because why pick Soraka who can keep her ADC topped off, has a nice teamfight heal ult and a decent poke. When you can pick Vel'Koz and still have peel, harass so hard the enemies practically cannot farm, get free kills post 6 with your ult because many ADCs are too slow to get out of it(god forbid you buy a Rylai's) and be super relevant carry late game without even having to farm and risk solo laning. Supports deserve a place in this game, if Riot isn't going to remove mages from bot lane, they better plan on letting Lulu go top again.

  3. Absurd Snowball. This was always a thing in bot lane, but with damage creep and issues such as mage supports above, plus the Caitlyn. Playing safely at your tower to farm is harder than ever. In the old days if I was behind in bot lane as ADC or Support we could retreat to our tower and neatly farm up, now the enemies could dive us but it was high risk, they could poke us but as strong as Sona and old Caitlyn's power was it doesn't compare to dancing around 5 traps while trying to dodge flame pillars and stuns from Brand. So at this point the high snowball in botlane has become absurdly high, especially when jungle has so much influence over bot lane and can dive those towers at 1/2 the risk it use to be. Previously we could also sacrifice our T1 tower(a normal strat if you gave a few kills and could not sustain your lane back then) so we could farm at T2 and partake in team objectives. Due to FTB and the overall snowball in League sacrificing a tower is now just as suicidal as defending it when behind has always been.

  4. Lack of Agency as a traditional ADC until 30+ minutes. This use to not be a problem, as the average game was 35-45 minutes and fewer early game champions existed, ADCs also powerspiked on an IE alone. Now with most games being shorter, I either need an earlier but milder power window or I am useless. This made me resort to playing ranged duelist bruiser Ashe mid(counters the hell out of AD assassins if you rush Tabi, PD and DD lel), just so I feel I have some laning agency. Enemy ADC/Support combo counters you or is a bully? 10 deaths by 10 minutes. Enemy jungler decides to properly gank your lane? 10 deaths by 10 minutes. Enemy playing a Lethality or early powerspike ADC/Mage support? 10 deaths by 10 minutes. Meanwhile if luck favors you or champion picks, the opposite happens. I feel like I have no worth on a traditional DPS ADC until I have completed a minimum of 3 items, which only ever happens if my team snowballs. But if my team snowballs they end by 25-30 minutes anyways so I never get to use said items...

  5. Lack of ability to ward. This mostly affects support, and while some supports have a little more early game agency they do not have the ability to properly ward. This is largely responsible for jungle ganks being so strong. As a jungle main I can literally just walk into lane on Shyvana 50% of the time because their wards don't have enough up time. Why even take sweeper? Oh yeh, because if I have sweeper I can basically deny their entire team vision until the support gets a sightstone(which thankfully some supports do). This affects more than just bot lane, but it feels especially bad on support, where I remember games of placing 60-70 wards in S2. Granted, Supports back then were in a worse design state and were basically ward mules mid-late game. That said it is too far the opposite now. Warding trinkets need to be looked at. Control wards are not the answer either, Control wards are a snowball mechanic, the team who is ahead can protect and destroy them, the team who is behind would literally just be being baited if they tried. I buy them, but they are only ever useful in lanes where my team is ahead.

  6. I don't feel like I can protect my ADC as most traditional supports. As a support I always use to feel powerful at protecting my ADC early game. Now, supports are propped up by a crutch set of items anybody can buy. Mage 'supports' with low scalings and high base damage can buy the same items as a support, often earlier due to having more gold from harass and kills, and keep their ADC alive just as good as many supports could. Instead of propping supports up with Redemption, Locket and other support items, why don't we baseline buff traditional supports who are weak, they deserve it. In exchange these items could see their actives toned down just a little. Currently however, before the purchase of these items, I feel helpless on Soraka, Leona and many other traditional supports to save my ADC from the 4 man ganks coming bot lane all the time, thank heavens for the teleport nerf or it would be 5 man. I can only do so much pre-six with a single target stun, my E and exhaust on Leona. I feel helpless to do that which is literally my job.

  7. Ranged top laners ruining the game Bot also has the same problem as top lane, except instead of short range vs melee, it is long range vs short range. You can be denied out of huge amounts of farm and lane positioning just through the endless basic attacks from an ADC who is longer range than you. I don't blame the players however, the people playing Ashe into shorter ranged ADCs and Caitlyn into Ashe are just doing what they find effective. This is a game balance issue where range isn't counterable enough and/or isn't accounted for enough in power budgeting. It isn't as bad as top lane(because you can still use your range to farm under your tower without minion blocking and some shorter ranged ADCs have high reward mechanics for success) and has always been an issue in bot lane, but I felt it worth noting. Even on Ashe who use to be considered long range, and especially on Sivir or early game Kog'Maw, facing a champion like Caitlyn or Jhin(effective range) or Varus(effective range) is just very frustrating. At least Jinx has to expend mana and power push the lane to use her full range. Again, this isn't a major issue, and would probably go back to being okay if things like snowball, mage supports and junglers tower diving weren't so toxic at this time. But I just threw it in here because I like 7 more than 6.

Overall I am really saddened and disheartened trying to play bot lane right now. Between Jhin(and Varus) in every single game, mage supports, snowball, jungler power, lack of wards, extremely slow scaling and lack of agency. The lane is just miserable, unless you are a meta sheep or somebody who happened to main Jhin, Varus, MF or a mage support prior to this period, you are assured to have a lot of frustrating games.

I really hope Riot looks at bot lane in the near future, between the problems with jungle, top lane still being an island of hard counter wins minimal value and the state of bot lane at this time, I might just return to being a mid laner. It seems to be the only safe place to play the game, as a mid mage with sufficient range to stay safe.

This isn't to say I don't think Riot is trying, or that I feel the situation is hopeless. It is merely outlining some of my complaints about playing bot lane, and why I don't enjoy it anymore.

I just want to see more traditional ADCs and supports again.

62 Comments

Speeedy9 votes

as a bot lane main, if you dont play lethality you are putting yourself at a disadvantage automatically since you cannot outscale the item 3142 with an IE. the buff to LW helped but still traditional ADC as I like to play in ranked is just not good anymore due to tanks and how effective leathlity is.

You forgot 1 major point of people dont know how to play support so the lane is hope your autofill isn't worse than their autofill (especially in low elo). I like to play adc/mid but when I am autofilled support i tend to get my adc 3-4 kills within the first 10 min but then they dont know how to farm and usually have like 30 cs. Bot lane is by far the least influential role in the game right now especially if you are behind. I have yet to figure out what to do to make a comeback because you die so fast and deal no damage. Then you get heavily flamed all game and get called terrible. I had a mid yesterday who died 8 times in 10 min and somehow i got blamed for not roaming by top mid and jungle. When we had a consistent 2v2 lane in the bot the entire time minus backs to buy (everyone bot lane was 0/0/0 @ 10 min)

DeusVult5 votes

IE does outscale lethality, it just takes 3-4 items to do so, whereas every lethality item is effective immediately, but still becomes even more powerful when stacked on top of each other

Nymzo4 votes
  1. Jhin has been excessively meta since post release buffs, we went through this with Lucian, only Jhin hasn't been gutted. I am glad for that because I dislike champion gutting, but for the love of Urf he wins 25% of all LoL matches, he is present in 50%+ of all League games and wins 50%+ of those. Thankfully this appears to be being addressed, I sure hope it does enough considering most lanes right now are Jhin/Brand, Jhin/MF, Jhin/Malz, Jhin/Vel'Koz, Jhin/Zyra, Varus/Janna (Except when I have a ban as I always ban Jhin or Varus). Which brings me to the next reason I hate playing bot lane anymore.

Yea, it kinda goes with the problem that the only way to fight range is with more range (like fighting fire with fire) which is why Varus and Ziggs bot lane are so popular because they can outrange these 2 assholes Caitlyn and Jhin.

  1. Mage supports. So I love niche things and off meta, I was all for defending that Singed support guy even though I'd never want to play with him. I tried silly crud like AP Shyvana and I have played 4 games as Ashe mid recently, winning 3 of them. But the mage support thing bugs me, here is why. Mage supports trivialize real supports while also adding to damage bloat. Real supports, with the exception of some niche off meta picks, don't do well in other lanes. Even when they do, Riot nerfs that gameplay style(Lulu top, Janna mid, Sona mid, Bruiser Soraka etc). Supports are mutually beneficial with ADCs as they do well sharing lane, covering one another's weaknesses and while one is the most gold hungry class in the game the other needs almost none. Mages however, go mid, top, jungle(lol). No mention of Ziggs ADC because that is a specific niche. These mages should be balanced around scaling instead of base damage so they can go in their intended lane, instead of pushing supports out of bot lane. Because why pick Soraka who can keep her ADC topped off, has a nice teamfight heal ult and a decent poke. When you can pick Vel'Koz and still have peel, harass so hard the enemies practically cannot farm, get free kills post 6 with your ult because many ADCs are too slow to get out of it(god forbid you buy a Rylai's) and be super relevant carry late game without even having to farm and risk solo laning. Supports deserve a place in this game, if Riot isn't going to remove mages from bot lane, they better plan on letting Lulu go top again.

Holy fucking shit, yes, this is a fucking problem and Riot doesn't do shit (except balancing those mage at bot lane despite being mid laners).

I mean, this is no longer an off meta pick, they became the best support and are fucking aggravating to play against. They can fuck up in lane but they just need to ult and suddently, you lost the fight. And you know what Riot should also do? Increase the price of both item 3151 and item 3116 (around the same price as item 3165) but also increase the dmg. This means that unless they get really fed, they won't be able to get their cores items and will be useless for a long time if behind. And you wouldn't need to nerf them like they did with Malz.

  1. Absurd Snowball. This was always a thing in bot lane, but with damage creep and issues such as mage supports above, plus the Caitlyn. Playing safely at your tower to farm is harder than ever. In the old days if I was behind in bot lane as ADC or Support we could retreat to our tower and neatly farm up, now the enemies could dive us but it was high risk, they could poke us but as strong as Sona and old Caitlyn's power was it doesn't compare to dancing around 5 traps while trying to dodge flame pillars and stuns from Brand. So at this point the high snowball in botlane has become absurdly high, especially when jungle has so much influence over bot lane and can dive those towers at 1/2 the risk it use to be. Previously we could also sacrifice our T1 tower(a normal strat if you gave a few kills and could not sustain your lane back then) so we could farm at T2 and partake in team objectives. Due to FTB and the overall snowball in League sacrificing a tower is now just as suicidal as defending it when behind has always been.

Yea, the towers area a fucking joke, 4 man ganks happens wayyy too often. And of course, not being able to farm proprely because look, fucking Caitlyn put 5 traps under our tower and we can't do shit about it.

  1. Lack of ability to ward. This mostly affects support, and while some supports have a little more early game agency they do not have the ability to properly ward. This is largely responsible for jungle ganks being so strong. As a jungle main I can literally just walk into lane on Shyvana 50% of the time because their wards don't have enough up time. Why even take sweeper? Oh yeh, because if I have sweeper I can basically deny their entire team vision until the support gets a sightstone(which thankfully some supports do). This affects more than just bot lane, but it feels especially bad on support, where I remember games of placing 60-70 wards in S2. Granted, Supports back then were in a worse design state and were basically ward mules mid-late game. That said it is too far the opposite now. Warding trinkets need to be looked at. Control wards are not the answer either, Control wards are a snowball mechanic, the team who is ahead can protect and destroy them, the team who is behind would literally just be being baited if they tried. I buy them, but they are only ever useful in lanes where my team is ahead.

The thing is, sightstone needs a buff: cheaper or another upgrate or actual good stats or recharge itself without the need of backing AND more range.

  1. I don't feel like I can protect my ADC as most traditional supports. As a support I always use to feel powerful at protecting my ADC early game. Now, supports are propped up by a crutch set of items anybody can buy. Mage 'supports' with low scalings and high base damage can buy the same items as a support, often earlier due to having more gold from harass and kills, and keep their ADC alive just as good as many supports could. Instead of propping supports up with Redemption, Locket and other support items, why don't we baseline buff traditional supports who are weak, they deserve it. In exchange these items could see their actives toned down just a little. Currently however, before the purchase of these items, I feel helpless on Soraka, Leona and many other traditional supports to save my ADC from the 4 man ganks coming bot lane all the time, thank heavens for the teleport nerf or it would be 5 man. I can only do so much pre-six with a single target stun, my E and exhaust on Leona. I feel helpless to do that which is literally my job.

As I discussed a little bit with Rubick in another thread, Riot needs to give a support update like they did with the mage and assasin update or the future tank one. Because their ''reworks'' for the supports are all a big failure except for Taric. Sona is still a lane bully and not an aura mage, Leona is only a very rare niche pick, Soraka and Janna are annoying to play against, Blizcrank is too dependant of only one ability and he was designed to be a top laner. Lulu needs a buff too. Most of them need a Kata level of rework while Blitzcrank needs a Poppy level of rework.

Overall I am really saddened and disheartened trying to play bot lane right now. Between Jhin(and Varus) in every single game, mage supports, snowball, jungler power, lack of wards, extremely slow scaling and lack of agency. The lane is just miserable, unless you are a meta sheep or somebody who happened to main Jhin, Varus, MF or a mage support prior to this period, you are assured to have a lot of frustrating games.

I really hope Riot looks at bot lane in the near future, between the problems with jungle, top lane still being an island of hard counter wins minimal value and the state of bot lane at this time, I might just return to being a mid laner. It seems to be the only safe place to play the game, as a mid mage with sufficient range to stay safe.

This isn't to say I don't think Riot is trying, or that I feel the situation is hopeless. It is merely outlining some of my complaints about playing bot lane, and why I don't enjoy it anymore.

I just want to see more traditional ADCs and supports again.

They won't, because they think they can keep giving up the short end of the stick but at one point, people are going to be tired of being autofill in bot lane and people will start to troll in ranked and then Riot will realize that they have an issue.

GuesstheName1322 votes

[{quoted}](name=TheFrench Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYNsrZxm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-01T17:10:24.345+0000) The thing is, sightstone needs a buff: cheaper or another upgrate or actual good stats or recharge itself without the need of backing AND more range.

This. Right here. The fact that supports need to back every two minutes because they used all their wards as soon as they got to lane is quite annoying. I've always thought it should recharge like the Yellow trinket (which I normally keep until after laning because of this), that way it will be useful for the support and not a time waster. If they did add this buff, and a stat buff, you may actually see top laners/junglers buy it. I would love to see that because then more vision will be available, since people can only place three wards at a time (or infinite, easy to remove, blue wards). The support role overall needs a buff/rework. Not mage supports, but tank and traditional supports. I want to be able to play Janna, Braum, Taric, and that lot and not be outpushed and out damage by a Malz, Zyra, and even Karma.

Tryzzor4 votes

I'm a support main and mage supports are literally the only way to actually win low elo. Don't get me wrong I love playing true supports but its having to rely on my team which makes things difficult. And that's why carry support mages are really good because you don't have to rely on your team as much, plus you don't have to play around those half ass adc players who think they are the best and flame at literally anything you do. I do agree that mage supports should be played less but how things are and being a support, it sucks trying to support a bad team.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

It sucks playing ADC in low elo. Having to rely entirely on bad teams and supports who refuse to ward. It sucks playing jungle in low elo, where you go to gank and your laner just farms minions then another laner spams "Gank 4 me u shit". It sucks playing top in low elo, where you never get jungle pressure and your lane has no relevance so you rely on your team winning for you. This is why mid is so popular. ADC gets flamed for his CS and KDA. Top gets flamed for losing his tower early or feeding Darius. Jungle gets flamed for every time the enemy jungler ganks. Mids get flamed for not following Katarina to an unknown location as a squishy skillshot mage. Supports aren't special cases for getting flamed.

That aside. This is a problem with supports losing power as damage creep took over, and support mages aren't the solution. They add damage bloat and invalidate real supports.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

I agreed with your jhin point but mage supports aren't even being played that much. If you looked at the playrates it's traditional supports being played most games.

Skins Project2 votes

#MakeSupportsGr8Again I'd play with you ._. (I'll be there to shield for youuuuuu, build my world of vision around you, I'm so glad that I saved you) (I'll be there) Cough

Uhhhh

Seriously though, I tend to have ok games... Positivity feeds positivity. (Most da time ._.) And I'd be happy to play with you! Jack of all trades (Seriously I need to find a main) at your service ^.^

Lavaniel4 votes

Pretty much bot lane summed in one post. I'm glad there are people out there who actually feel like Jhin is getting the Lucian treatment, just like Jinx when she cam out. They want their new ADC to be nice and flashy.

I'm an Ashe main, and for the last few patches I have felt that I have no real impact besides my ult. It doesn't make sense where they want Ashe tbh. When she could stack with her W and R, it was obvious her new identity was a more focused DPS slow ADC, just like she was pre-rework. Now I can't decide if I am suppose to poke to death with the mediocre-damage W, try to stack some Qs (and die, of course) or ult and pretty much not participate in a fight beyond that.

We need to decide if we want games to be back to longer amounts of time, or if we want adcs to be more relevant earlier. And to be honest, relevant for what? I think we should have them be more relevant for tank killing and tower pushing, so that adc isn't the oppressive role. I feel like lethality is honestly the intermediary for what would be a game without crit. You have to have some way of dealing enough damage, and lethality would possibly give poke adcs and the dps adcs relevancy in most metas.

But of course, Riot likes to sit in a retirement home all day instead of actually trying to make this game pleasurable to play. Expect about two months from now until the meta possibly shifts, though with all the damage creep its probably a mute point.

Muzét3 votes

I'm a support main. But let's be real I gave up on supporting every time since Brand started this fad. I'm definitely okay being against one mage support sometimes. Annie did exist way before (and Morgana have been shifted there) but now everytime it's every other games AT LEAST I'm against someone who doesn't belong there. They can "support" alright. But bring support up to date so they can be picked against those thing since you can't really deny mages to support without hurting their midlane aka Malz's syndrom. Any support with a decent heal (ie Rakanana, God Nami...) is being denied by 800g, every support with a shield, see those shield getting constantly nerfed cause it's too strong, overbearing for the enemy.

What's left? Tank who are striving for survive the early game against two ranged characters. Botlane isn't fun at this moment. Riot did make some changes to "enchanters". But clearly that's not enough to keep up with the Mage Support fad.

I really count on the next season (with the planned mastery changes). I hope they're gonna tackle the gold/xp gain this season with a few tweaks to support even if they seem to deserve an update overall.

Proxy3452 votes

Its literally impossible to balance a champ for one lane when they can go to any lane lol which is something Riot's balancing team doesn't understand lol

Ralanr4 votes

Actually it's not. They just make their respective playstyles in other lanes suck.

Hence why Tahm isn't good top anymore.

Proxy3451 votes

One thing I fear is that every mage that becomes popular in the support role will then be nerfed into that role lol

Nymzo1 votes

Don't say that, Malz may want a few friends you know

Bootlessly2 votes

I remember getting my ass handed to me by an ad bruiser Leona top lane...

I used to play support with my friend as my ADC. We used to do some crazy things (Blitzcrank and Shaco kill lanes) but most of the time we played a pretty simple ADC and support combo. He mains Vayne and i would play Janna And would shield his q attacks for a lot of auto trade damage. But now a days I never see peel based supports in botlane. Its usually a full damage Jhin or Miss Fortune with a Zyra, Brand, Malzahar or something bursty. I don't see Leona, Braum, Tahm, or Alistar anymore and its sad. You'd think in a meta where the three most played ADCs are low mobility and Assassins are around every corner they would be meta to peel the hell for their ADC, but its not the case. Its gotten to the point that even the supports are snowballing.

Der Lindwurm1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chad Foad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYNsrZxm,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:14:09.220+0000)

Its gotten to the point that even the supports are snowballing.

This happened recently: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2435419937/208478833?tab=overview :p

Skins Project1 votes

5/2/14 Varus... Poor kid

ProfDrDeath2 votes

The main thing that causes mage supports to be the issue they currently are is this item:

item 3303

It (and its upgrades) have the highest gold generation of all support items - and said gold generation is tied to something mage supports want to do anyway, namely attacking the enemy. Moreover, the item also improves said attacking in a major way.

Nymzo2 votes

Yeah but the problem is that unless you get rif of the ap for a chalice, you will have to buffs a few supports (Bard and especially Zilean.

SH Azykan1 votes

zilean should be going coin in most cases, not spell thief's, he takes spell thief's vs lanes that he can actually auto harass, but most lanes atm he cannot safely. Bard can do the same thing, but Spellthiefs does fit his play style a lot more then it does zileans.

Nymzo1 votes

I don't know, Zilean is so dependant on his bomb harass to win lane that skipping a bit of ap can be risky.

Of course, his damage falls off later on so it doesn't really matter if you have frost queen or watchers or not.

SH Azykan1 votes

the small amount of AP on spellthief's is easily made up for because of how much more gold gen coin will give him, also it has good base damage on his bombs so the extra what 4 damage? isnt going to make a big difference (it is 5 ap, on a 90% scaling in his kit). And going for a talisman offers zilean a lot of speed to his whole team

Fairyfleur1 votes

Don't forget Karma, Nami, and Sona.

Nymzo1 votes

Sona would need a rework more than a buff really but yeah.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chad Foad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYNsrZxm,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:14:09.220+0000)

I remember getting my ass handed to me by an ad bruiser Leona top lane...

If you were playing top as a tank or skirmisher type champion between S2-S5 that was probably me ;P

boo9102 votes

Well, I suppose I am part of the problem, as I main lux as a support

I am sorry

and I have a fix

make items that increase shield time/power, heal power(not including summoners) and give them actives that do that , but don't give ad or ap.

buying those would allow both support types to exist

It Hertz When IP2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYNsrZxm,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-01T16:33:34.936+0000)

When you can pick Vel'Koz and still have peel, harass so hard the enemies practically cannot farm, get free kills post 6 with your ult because many ADCs are too slow to get out of it(god forbid you buy a Rylai's)

I agree with pretty much everything except this, just wanted to note that Vel'koz has slows on three of his four abilities already. The only thing Rylais would change would be his W.

Votable Jester1 votes

Just a small note, his E isn't a slow but a stun/airborne/knockback-ish thing.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Rylai's still wouldn't help, the majority of the slow duration is used up during the knock-up (back?) animation. The slow from Rylais is only 1s in duration, the knockup is .75s long. Ergo, you get a grand total of .25 extra seconds of slow, barely worth mentioning.

Just checked wiki, his E is a "suspension". Yas's ult will treat it as Airborne, but for pretty much all other purposes it's a stun.

Votable Jester2 votes

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. I was simply saying that his E is not a slow, and you said that "thee of his four abilities" already have slows. Rylai's still basically has no effect on the ability, as you said.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Ah, my bad. I thought you were. :P

The Yetii Rider2 votes

You can't balance mages around scaling over base damage. That turns them into champions like ADCs who scale more off gold than levels. The entire point of sending a mage mid lane is that they get more benefit out of experience in a shorter lane than they do anything else. If mages need to back and buy before they can actually deal damage that ruins early roaming, partnered invades, and just the general current strategy of staying in lane as long as you can before backing. It also will make mages even weaker than AP assassins because mages who depend on scaling will be forced to buy Rabadon's Deathcap, an item with a hard build path, higher gold cost than Infinity Edge and only pure AP as its stat.

Mages need their bases.

sliceruser2 votes

As a support who loved playing Leo poppy Nami I f ing hate lethality and the 1 shot meta

Thilmer2 votes

THANKS for understanding that the reason mage supports are popular is because conventional supports always get nerfed. Always.

And if they are playable in other role, they get nerfed incredibly quick.

Why does this only happen with supports? Why other champs can be playable in two or three positions and are not considered a problem?

Ralanr1 votes

I can't really see Jhin being nerfed more than he has since there was a point where Cait and Vayne had high winrate and playrates (like near 30% playrate) and didn't get nerfed at all.

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

Vayne was nerfed, her Q damage was reduced and there was something else I cannot quite remember. Vayne is at a negative win rate right now. Caitlyn is still absurdly strong, just because she needs nerfs doesn't mean all the AD casters overpowering bot lane are not frustrating still.

Ralanr1 votes

I never said it did mean that. I'm just saying that annoying/overpowered marksmen have had stages where they should have been nerfed and haven't. Instead they usually just buff their counters because Riot balances ADCs around ADCs (though I'm not even sure of that balance scale).

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Unfortunately that design philosophy has lead to numerous problems with ADC balance in general. As an example, if Draven and Vayne were doing too well, so they buffed Caitlyn who was already doing fine, now Caitlyn is just dominating other ADCs even harder, and hurting the other roles and champions who are not ADCs even more. It is a very poor way of balancing things. Again, I think the slow nerf, lethality nerfs and dft nerfs should be enough on Jhin. But if not bot lane will still be miserably one champion every game.

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah...I'd much rather ADCs be balanced around all other champions.

Or maybe they are or champions are always balanced around the counterparts of their class and I'm just thinking of a scapegoat.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Largely champions are balanced around the role they take primarily(top laners are balanced vs other top laners). This is fine, but the problem with the idea of buffing counters to bring down an over the top champion, is if those counters were already doing fine they now are being oppressive themselves, and the initial champion is still being oppressive.

It is like bringing in a harmful invasive species to stop a harmful and invasive species. So far we have an almost 0 success rate with doing this, because the introduced species is just as bad, and the problem one is still there.

Ralanr7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zYNsrZxm,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T17:12:17.353+0000)

It is like bringing in a harmful invasive species to stop a harmful and invasive species. So far we have an almost 0 success rate with doing this, because the introduced species is just as bad, and the problem one is still there.

Riot:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/747/4772795__e188297988ce060ed77289f0d306731a.jpg

ProfDrDeath2 votes

In 7.5, Jhin gets hit indirectly by the nerfs to Deathfire Touch (AD ratio down to 45%) and Edge of Night (Duration reduced to 5 seconds).

And Cait and Vayne got nerfs when they had Jhin's performance (not just playrate, but performance).

Not xPeke3 votes

The problem with Edge of Night isn't just it's duration though.. It's the low cooldown and the ability to activate a Banshee's Veil whenever it pleases you.

Sure they're taking 5 seconds off the duration, but the overall uptime of the active is still highly toxic to game balance.

Kynami2 votes

Here, lemme just pop this and for the next 5 quality seconds Ashe can't do a bloody thing about my Jhin ult from long range.

Same thing goes for the likes of MF whom I'm currently abusing... You now need a pair of abilities to knock her out of ult. And even if you can use a damage ability to kill the shield that means part of your rotation is down and she can probably just flash out because you now lack the damage to guarantee the kill.

Or even more frustrating. Quinn pops the shield right as she passes the halfway point to your lane and comes screaming in at top speed with a Youmuu's active on top and your panic stun/root is 100% worthless as she then does her combo for at least 85%+ of your healthbar.

Not xPeke2 votes

that item's cooldown should just be increased though. A simple 5 seconds off the duration is not enough.

I might be biased because I just think that active is too strong. period.

But have you had a Zed ult on you when you play Vayne? Before you could Ult + Tumble --> stealth to reposition and get the condemn off. Now you literally can't even stun him and outplay him that way. You just gotta flash/tumble his Q or hope that he misses. Then you gotta hope that his E + possible AA + Ult proc isn't enough to kill you.. start praying guys.

And yeah, there's all the things you have said, and more.

Linna Excel1 votes

Anyway, I played Leona AD mid like an idiot thinking I needed to buy a sword, shield, armor, boots, necklace and sunfire cap facepalm.

item 3078 item 3143 item 3083 item 3107 item 3068 item 3158

...

Looks viable to me, just drop the shield for something with MR for when you aren't playing an all AD team.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

S2, try Sunfire, IE, Iron Locket, Boots of Swiftness, Runic Bulwark, Thornmail.

Dataless1 votes

If you want to see more traditional adc/support pairings then just play them. Ashe Caitlyn Sivir Twitch Draven Vayne (for example) are all totally serviceable on the current patch, just because they can't abuse lethality doesn't mean they cannot be played.

Similarly supports like Janna Morgana Nami Lulu are all very effective while not building damage items.

I don't get what the issue is. Are you talking about competitive play? If so you should understand by now that pro players will typically choose (or their coach will choose) the safest, most consistent and reliable/OP picks. That's it.

If you don't like the trickle/down effect don't buy into it, just play what the f-ck ever you want. If it's "not meta" or not it's traditional lane (I've done Yasuo /Janna bot a few times with a friend) just tell your team your intentions and ask that they work around you. If they are unwilling and flame that's no longer your problem. You can't be banned because you have a chat log proving you took steps to be a good teammate, so long as you yourself are not toxic there is no issue.

Making posts on the boards doesn't solve anything. Riot barely reads it, Riot doesn't take laymens wants and needs into account when balancing the game, they only care about their esports cash machine. Thankfully the rest of the game can be played and enjoyed by normal people if you just get your head out of whatever bubble it's trapped in.

EDIT: Also there is nothing wrong with damage supports, Zyra has been a thing for f-cking YEARS now. Support players deserve to have damage-oriented options as well if they choose to play that way, it's healthier for the game as a whole.

Khelb2 votes

I don't understand how you can not understand what the issue is. It's pretty obvious. Also, the reason the boards are here is to encourage discussion with the community, not just to shout at Riot. You're entire post completely misses every point from OP and fails to discuss anything relevant. Also, I'm a Lulu main and i can assure you that the only way for me to play her early game is to play like a mage instead of a traditional support. my shields block 1/4 of an auto attack from all meta ADCs making it a waste of mana to even use as a shield. What OP said is she doesn't want to play like that. She wants to be a traditional support which is becoming harder and harder to do while being successful in lane. Thus, the issue is obvious and your entire post is about as useful as a horse without legs.

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