Sona players are using it solely for the gold gen. That's a problem. CLG vs. FLY, Morgana and Sona both took...coin...of all things. Consensual Clown, sole challenger Sona player, is abusing it, too. Anyone gonna talk about this? We nerfed the Spellthief line's gold gen, but coin's is ridiculous.
LadyRenly2 votesif they take coin, they sacrifice damage for gold...
heaven forbid there be...gasp...choices
ahferroin72 votesThe problem is that this isn't an equal choice in the current context of the game. The damage from the AP on the spellthief's line is actually less valuable than the gold gen from coin, at least early in the game. Early game, 5 AP makes almost no difference on most champs (for almost all supports, it equates to at most 5 extra damage on any damaging abilities, usually less than 2), and the tribute passive on for the line is extremely risky unless you're doing something crazy off-meta like Xerath support. In contrast, the easy and relatively safe tribute passive on the coin line combined with the bonus health regen allowing you to stay in lane longer allows for much more efficient early gold generation. In contrast, the bonuses from the spellthief's line are much better than those from the coin line in the late game. At that point, you aren't killing minions regularly enough to benefit from coin much, and the 50 AP from FQC or EotW provides a significant boost in power. In essence you're deciding whether you care about being relevant early on, or spiking mid game when you start roaming and can safely proc FQC or EotW. In the current meta, the first case is almost always preferable, so it's not really much of a choice.
Weasel Kensei1 votesIts not just the AP damage
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spellthief's_Edge
Unique – Queen's Tribute: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 10 additional damage, grant Gold 15 and 50% bonus movement speed for 1 second (additional stacks extend duration).
ahferroin71 votesYes, but that's mid-to-late game (unless you're able to play super aggressive early), which just reinforces the point I'm trying to make, which is that Coin is better early, spellthief's is better late.
Weasel Kensei1 votesOh sorry...
for almost all supports, it equates to at most 5 extra damage on any damaging abilities, usually less than 2
I thought this was also part of your point... you wrote it.
That was why I was clarifying to you that the extra 10 damage is there. On an ability that has 50% AP scaling doing 10 extra damage, thats practically the equivalent of 20 extra AP for the purposes of damage. So Spellthiefs has a bit more punch to consider than just its 5 AP.
I shall attempt to refrain from expounding upon notions found in your statements...
chipndip11 votesIf late's like 50 minutes in, yeah, cause with coin you get to your late game items way faster than STE. Why bother with STE anymore? I can out-gold someone by like double the amount or more on their Watchers in comparison to my Oasis if I don't shit the bed in lane.
chipndip12 votesThis is fine when it's actually a choice, which benefits different champs to different degrees. In this case, they nerfed the spellthief line's gold generation while buffing the coin line multiple times. Honestly, I think this is going to end like how Redemption/Locket went, and I'll have to wait for more people to abuse it before anyone REALLY cares.
Zone of Endless2 votesCoin line gold gen is pretty insane. I've compared my spellthief to enemy coin before and they usually have double the income and that's with me harassing the enemy/hitting turret fairly often.
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zone of Endless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zVtvqRm3,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-07-18T03:24:10.413+0000)
Coin line gold gen is pretty insane. I've compared my spellthief to enemy coin before and they usually have double the income and that's with me harassing the enemy/hitting turret fairly often.
Zoning off coin users is important. You can see the coins after all - you know theyre going to go pick it up. Kind of like a thresh soul; you can see it, harass them for it.
Zone of Endless1 votesZoning off coin users is important. You can see the coins after all - you know theyre going to go pick it up. Kind of like a thresh soul; you can see it, harass them for it.
Easier said than done. The pick up range is actually not too bad so you can usually walk up and collect it without the enemy being able to harass you back. Even then the people who go coin have some sort of sustain or shield like janna.
chipndip11 votesZoning them off when they have more mana sustain to, you know, heal with?
Reaper Soraka1 votesIt's really too bad they had to make the quest useless. At least a skill point felt useful.
I didn't want Janna's passive. Most janna players don't even want janna's passive at this time.
meowwow71 votesyeah and speaking of which are we going to get an indicator when it's actually being used
Reaper Soraka1 votesI don't want an indicator of when it's being used. From how it was explained to me, movement speed% falls off pretty fast so it's useless on anyone who builds move% items.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesWait, when the hell did that get changed?
Reaper Soraka1 votesI think it changed with Kayn's release.
chipndip18 votesExcept Janna's win rate is, once again, THE highest in the game right after that change?
Also Soraka's win rate got a massive spike as well, and to boot other supports are jumping the spellthief ship to coin's ship?
Reaper Soraka1 votesI don't think coin was ever a worse choice than spellthief's. Spellthief's has a ridiculous requirement that just doesn't work for squishy supports.
But it doesn't change the fact I would prefer something other than Janna's passive. I don't care about balance though, I just was hoping for something unique out of the support quests.
chipndip16 votesI mean, the whole "get a point early" thing meant that you weren't REALLY getting anything. You got one skill point faster, but that just translates to slightly faster scaling, which is a gift that eventually runs out. The new reward is actually a real bonus to your champ.
Also, this is less about the quest and more about its ridiculous gold gen.
Mysticman892 votesEh, I feel like an early skill point felt useful, but wasn't, and janna passive feels useless, but actually is useful, akin to various other aura type buffs where they're strong but don't feel like it.
Diminishing returns on MS occur at 415+ MS, which Janna passive+quest passive+t2 boots is enough to exceed on the majority of champs, with the possible exception of unmounted kled who I havent done the math for.
I feel like the quest change is actually going to be an underappreciated buff in most cases.
Sukishoo11 votesEh... no. The skill point felt horrible to most people. It was just leveling the skill it didn't actually give you the stats that went along with the level up.
Mysticman891 votesPotentially more gold, and it's also got more potential mana than spelltheif. If the enemy lane is pushing you under tower though and abusing you every time you try to pick up coins, you'll lose a lot of income.
It's probably on the strong side when managed well though, but I doubt the average income of coin is that much better than the alternatives if you factor in the times when you get denied the ability to pick up most of your coins. In match ups where that's unlikely tho, it's certainly a strong choice.
Rexxiee1 votesThey buffed it for like 3 patches in a row, of course its going to end up too strong now.
Hexs Fortune1 votesI'm ok with it. You sacrifice laning damage and scaling AP for some extra gold and a bad quest reward
Pinkaj1 votesWell, it's easier to collect coins than risk getting close to the enemy to poke, right? Plus you dont have to waste any mana poking so you can save the mana for protecting your adc
Paroe1 votes@thread
is for tanky frontline supports. Its gold generation is CS - you get 1 CS every other wave until you upgrade it. Then you get 2 CS every three waves. When you upgrade it fully you get 2 CS every wave.
is for mana efficient poke supports. Morgana, karma, lulu. The goal of the item is to harass and help push, because most of its gold is in its 15 gold per hit.
is for mana inefficient supports. Sona, brand, leblanc, blitzcrank, etc.
However coin line has a couple things which make it different;
Thats right folks, talisman of ascension while being a "support" item is ALSO an everybody item! Its not just for supports; its for ANYONE who has lost or will lose lane can utilize it effectively (and sell it off later, but thats a moot point). Honestly people, just because its ~400 gold better at 40 minutes than the other two doesnt mean its broken. It means the item is working as intended; its MEANT to generate more gold as long as youre near the wave.
chipndip11 votesI made nearly 3k gold off of it just last game, and above 2k the game before. But yeah, it isn't broken. Sure thing champ.
Paroe1 votesI made nearly 3k gold off of it just last game, and above 2k the game before. But yeah, it isn't broken. Sure thing champ.
I highly doubt that - mostly because your score would indicate otherwise. Most people make 1000~1200 in a fourty minute game. Its not an unreasonable amount for an item WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO GENERATE GOLD.... at the expense of useful stats. Have you not realized that any time coin lines gold generation was "in line" with the others its never used...?
Killed Inaction1 votesThat means they're picking up less than 1 coin a minute... generally at least 1 coin will drop per minion wave. If you get 70% of those for the first 20 minutes, let's say, swapping 
for 
at 7 minutes, that's already about 1000 gold. What are they doing the rest of the game?
I generally get 2-3.5k gold per game from 
, and I know for a fact that 
gives more gold on average. In Gold rank someone should be making a minimum of 2k gold per game with it.
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Killed Inaction,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zVtvqRm3,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-18T04:44:53.994+0000)
That means they're picking up less than 1 coin a minute... generally at least 1 coin will drop per minion wave. If you get 70% of those for the first 20 minutes, let's say, swapping
I generally get 2-3.5k gold per game from
Youre assuming that the coin which drops is always gold. Its about 60/40 whether or not a gold or mana coin drops. Further.... I doubt, very very highly, youre making above 1200g in a 30 minute game off tribute.
Killed Inaction1 votesThe gold coins drop around once a wave. The mana coins also drop frequently.
You said 40 minute game, not 30.
The maximum feasible gold generation from the Spellthief's line in a 40-45 minute game is 3-3.5k gold. I make an average of 60-70% of that. The maximum feasible gold generation for the Ancient Coin line in a 40-45 minute game is around 3.5-4k gold and is much easier to get. If I get 2-2.5k gold in a 40-50 minute game and the enemy gets 3-3.5k with the Ancient Coin line, because of the ease in getting the gold income, that's a big difference in late-game gold.
chipndip11 votesYes...IT IS ALWAYS GOLD. Why? Because champion kills/assists ALWAYS DROP BOTH. Just for shielding/healing someone that kills someone else, the value of all your kills/assists goes up by 40g ON TOP OF generating more gold in the first place.
No, I'm not literally saying you get gold coins on every minion, but the gold gen you get from rushing Eye of the Oasis is ABSURD. LITERALLY ABSURD. Just last game I hit 3k on Nami with Oasis to a Sona's barely 1k with her Watchers. It isn't even close.
However, if you HONESTLY want, you can add me in-game and I'll personally go out of my way to show you the difference.
agbudar1 votesthe matter of the fact is this:
its not usefull for anything else so what are you gonna give it then?
20% movement speed when people move towards you? cuz thats what its gonna take. already its super easy for a tank support to sit on your gold for you to never get it.
chipndip12 votesSo we're saying it's balanced for this to make 1k+ more gold than the other items? Is this your claim?
agbudar1 votesyou set yourself behind stat wise with the coin items compared to the other ones
chipndip12 votesOh "boo hoo", I'm missing out on 35 ap or 300 hp while getting complete build items way faster. WHATEVER shall I do about that besides completing full blown items way faster than before by doing less work than the other two do? That 35 ap will sure deter me from completing most of my build by the 25 minute mark, huh?
Also, you didn't answer my question: Is it balanced that for doing nothing but standing in lane, I can make 2k - 3k gold in comparison to someone else's 1k-ish gold for using the other items?
Modern Support1 votesCoin is strong right now for a couple of reasons.
A.) You get both effects of mana + gold from assists/kills (40g + 15% missing mana or 25g at tier 2 + 8% missing mana at tier 1)
B.) Easier to collect the gold income past laning phase for relic and spellthief you have to actively proc it while coin comes passively
Coin is balanced around the fact that.
A.) Has a worse statline 5% CDR at tier 1 while Relic and Spellthief give useful stats to help lane.
B.) The quest change was overall a net nerf since most supports that buy coin enjoy having an early level.
For Gold Gen Coin surpasses the other two by a large amount in the later portions of the game but in Lane Phase it's almost even.
Though I would like to see riot revisit coin maybe by making the coin on champ assist become a quest only reward as it adds a lot of income into the mid-late cycles of the game.
For Quest reward the items rank Relic -> Spellthief -> Coin (this used to be #2 before the previous change from a consumable that grants a skill-point to 8% movement speed for allies moving towards you)
chipndip11 votesCoin is strong right now for a couple of reasons.
A.) You get both effects of mana + gold from assists/kills (40g + 15% missing mana or 25g at tier 2 + 8% missing mana at tier 1)
B.) Easier to collect the gold income past laning phase for relic and spellthief you have to actively proc it while coin comes passively
Coin is balanced around the fact that.
A.) Has a worse statline 5% CDR at tier 1 while Relic and Spellthief give useful stats to help lane.
B.) The quest change was overall a net nerf since most supports that buy coin enjoy having an early level.
For Gold Gen Coin surpasses the other two by a large amount in the later portions of the game but in Lane Phase it's almost even.
Though I would like to see riot revisit coin maybe by making the coin on champ assist become a quest only reward as it adds a lot of income into the mid-late cycles of the game.
For Quest reward the items rank Relic -> Spellthief -> Coin (this used to be #2 before the previous change from a consumable that grants a skill-point to 8% movement speed for allies moving towards you)
Can we STOP with these quest rewards? If anyone cared, we wouldn't be coin spamming in high elo, now would we? To boot, the quest reward change wasn't a nerf. That early skill level was shit. I shouldn't kid myself into thinking people around here would be able to value enhanced rotations and ability to dodge for allies.
You guys act like coin doesn't help with lane. You guys remember that it constantly drops % missing mp mana coins? It "helps your lane" by giving you staying power. With STE, I had to prioritize buying Faerie Charms on top of Frostfang to try to stay in lane after first back. With coin I can just rush Oasis without worrying about mana regen since, as long as I'm near minions, I'm not gonna go oom, even on Sona of all champs with her 80 mana heal/shield.
No, gold gen in lane isn't even. I constantly check my gen in comparison to the enemy, and since I started using coin, I'm usually around 1.66 to straight double the gold gen of the enemy laner. Why? Because coin's gen is consistent and way more practical on top of giving a bigger reward in the first place (25g for tier 1, 40g for tier 2, 40g + automatic 40g and mana on champ kills or assists on tier 3 or vision version).
This item's not balanced. It's under the radar. Right now everyone in the Sona club's just raving about how you guys haven't noticed it yet, and here I am trying to tell you guys.
Modern Support1 votes1.) The early level was superior due to being able to get your ult rank earlier than you should on Sona, Soraka, etc. 8% movement speed is around 25~30 movement speed that's not a lot compared to how much your extra spell point would give you.
2.) Coin helps a little in lane but spellthiefs and relic provide both a better lane phase. Supports you can't buy coin on everyone due to some champions needing to not get absolutely blasted in lane. If you go spellthiefs on sona you are prioritizing lane phase over a strong mid-late game. If you go coin you are prioritizing mid-late versus early game. It's personal preference on how you want to play some people want to play TLD + Spellthief into certain matchups others coin + windspeaker.
3.) The gold gen is even in lane or slightly favored with coin if you are constantly procing your other items then the gold gen is about the same this is just skill difference. After lane phase is a different story though sense relic and spellthief are way harder to proc.
The item should be changed I agree but it's not disgustingly op the main problem currently is that champion assists and kills grant both effects of a coin. Pickup range could be slightly lowered also so it has more counterplay.
Here is my account I main sona on https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=yuki
chipndip11 votesYeah, but higher tiered Sona players are all switching to coin. Higher tiered than both you and me. Pro players, even. And comparing the gold I'm making in comparison to opponents, as well as my mana sustain, it's actually ridiculous. In comparison to someone's 100 or so gold, I'll have 200. In comparison to someone's 300 to 400, I'll have 600. By the time they complete their quest, I'll have a solid 1k. By the end of the game? Like 2k or higher, depending, while the enemy's on like 1k. As long as you don't shit the bed, you don't really want for anything while using coin. My issue isn't that this item makes so much in and of itself. My issue is that it makes comparatively too much for too little work, in comparison to the other gold items. The pick up range is way too forgiving, the mana sustain shouldn't be % missing mana, and the sheer amount of dough this thing churns out in a match should be reduced, or the others should also get some sort of kill/assist rewards.
Modern Support1 votesYou'll always have cases where items are absurd on certain champions. In sona's case ardent censer and athenes are both crazy. Athenes gives around 400~1000 ap worth of value on your W depending on level.
Even if the other items were to get gold based on assist it wouldn't make sense as it doesn't with coins case. The coin you get from champ assists literally flies to you from the dead body.
Coin giving % missing mana isn't the current problem with the item. It's only really absurd on sona since she has low spell cooldowns and high mana cost.
I'd rather coin's ability to to extra gold on assists completely removed in cases where you split the gold 4 or 5 ways you end up getting more gold from the coin than the actual assist.
BLACK REALM GOD1 voteswell... you can have enough gold to get tier 2 at 5 minutes and then if you have teleport you can be back grabbing 40 gold coins every other cannon minion or better. you dont have to do anything for the gold either. you just stand around and dont die. the coin grants hp regen so it's easy to do so long as you avoid getting crowd controlled. there's no down side to the coin line because if you kill minions you get almost as much gold for the coins and if you miss cannons you get almost as much gold for the cannon.
i think caster minions are somewhere around 17 gold each. melee minions are like 24. cannon minions are 50 something. every other coin is a mana coin and is worthless. so i guess it depends, but for the most part once you get the coin upgrade you get idle gold like crazy. first tier is 25 gold per coin and second tier is 40 gold per coin. once you get the challenge you get coins from champion assists too.
spell thief isnt really about earning gold i dont think. i think it's supposed to be about supplementing poke right? but if you dont have ability power and mana regen in your build what good does that do you? the problem with that though is that once you start building ap and mana you find yourself building morrellonomicon and sliding into ap carry as opposed to ap support.