Honestly: "Scaling into being unstoppable" isn't an acceptable game play niche

chipndip1··122 votes·4,976 views

Ya wanna know what's more disgusting than something like Kog just running your team into the ground with absolutely zero viable options to stop them?

Nothing.

Nothing is worse than knowing that the point of some of the champions on the roster is "nearly automatically winning the game". Once again, I'm cutting the sarcasm and I'm gonna be pointing out the issues as I see them.

This isn't balancing. This is lazy. Nothing says "half-assed" more than just flopping a champion onto the rift with the sentiment of "You'll be good if the enemy lets you be good". Then you reach this point of "If you're good, you easily become way too good" and "If you aren't good, we'll never bother with you despite your potential to be good, since you don't do anything until then". Look at other late-game champs, for example. Tristana isn't as strong as Kog'Maw in the late game, but she's safer. Twitch isn't as strong either, but he can access advantageous positioning with his stealth very easily. Kog doesn't bring some sort of compare/contrast angle to his balancing. He's merely "weak" early, which will then transition to "the best marksman in the game, bar none". Like, hello? Yeah, there's a give and take based on the time required to get to that point, but that isn't exclusive to these types of champs. Any late game champ is gonna need about 3 items to reach that point, so why is Kog THIS ridiculous at that point in comparison to the others? Why does he get so much worse in comparison to anyone else when you get past this point?

We punish others for WAY less. We have more hyper-carry picks Jinx that are hard to fit into the meta Vayne because others can easily cover what they do, no sweat. Why is Vayne refocused into being a tank buster so adamantly when Kog has way more range, erodes tanks just as easily, and can deal with just about anyone else just as easily, so long as your team's not dumb enough to forget about you (after a point, you may not even care about that either)? Why did we tax Jinx's overall strength so much until this point, where just about everything in her kit's been nerfed in one way or another, when others can out-range and out-dps her at the same time? Twitch easily out-ranges and out-damages Jinx with aoe. Trist scales her standard firing range to be about Jinx's rocket range, but without the attack speed deficit so she just auto-wins that match-up. Kog'Maw's fucking ridiculous and can stack nearly any on-hit/life steal item he wants until he's outperforming everyone. I think shaving the raw damage output of late-game marksmen to further emphasize specific things they're meant to do would do us some long-term good. Balancing around game time is fine, but as it is now the marksman spot gets crowded out real bad.

So what's the point of this paragraph and how does it relate to Kog? Kog has no niche. He's just "eventually the strongest marksman in the game". He has no other function or utility outside of raw, ranged damage. Even then, he's allowed to just be as strong as he is, meanwhile Jinx has a hefty AS tax for using her rockets, and Vayne gets repeated nerfs so she can stop killing squishies so fast. Kog's basically walking hypocrisy.

What champ is balanced this way that's actually appreciated being this way?

MasterYi? No, most people say it feels really bad to play Yi in most cases.

Kayle? No, most people ain't touching her with a 20 foot pole. She's also high up in priority for reworking...so much so she's dragging Morgana into it with her.

Sona? All they did doing that was make her even more of a balancing nightmare in solo queue, and an even bigger joke in pro play.

Like, really...why aren't champs like these higher up on the game play update list? Seeing Kog in pro play sucks...a lot. They pick Janna, Galio, a whole bunch of "protect my void pupper" stuff and he just eats up the enemy team for free. The others here aren't marksmen, so they don't fit in a comp as snug as Kog does, and thus they just plain suck in this "niche". Adcs are meant to be protected, where as junglers, top laners, and supports...no so much. You don't base a comp around protecting your Sona or Kayle (your bot lane carry's gonna be a marksman, and supports are geared towards protecting them, not someone else), and thus the logistics of making a smart team comp automatically plays against non-adc champs that are built like Kog, which is usually punished in organized play rather consistently. That said, it means that Kog is allowed to be bloody ridiculous, and everyone else gets to be bloody garbage unless they play into their opponents being bad, rather themselves being good. I personally think that's a big no-no.

I took the time to stop playing Etrian V to type this after watching yet another Kog'Maw in yet another Worlds game which finally made me realize "You know what...this shit sucks". It's not about Kog winning or losing more than it's about seeing him on about 2 to 3 items and then mentally registering that, unless some angel's gonna intervene, Kog's about to steadily win this shit. That type of game play translates to solo queue to some degree as well. "Eventually being better than everyone else" at your thing isn't a niche in a role more than it's just a lazy take on trying to make one. It puts too much emphasis on Kog's damage numbers and less on Kog's actual game play, so he's just generally good when hyper-carries are good. I'm tired of seeing it.

130 Comments

IcyPepper52 votes

your bot lane carry's gonna be a marksman

Maybe that's the problem.

That it has to be a marksman.

chipndip119 votes

Fair, and yet that doesn't dispel the fact that no matter the lane, Kog shouldn't scale this hard in pure damage.

Malicious Metal31 votes

We need more Juggernaut Carries down there.

And mages.

Melledoneus12 votes

Blitz-Darius when

Malicious Metal18 votes

Funny thing.

Speaking from experience Taric or Lulu work way better with Darius than Blitzcrank.

Trust me, Rubick and I tried a plethora of different bot lane variations.

Irelia-Braum being one of 'em.

Audiomancy4 votes

Taliyah -Thresh worked pretty well for me until her mana costs skyrocketed.

Also Cassiopeia + Nautilus or Thresh is pretty dope.

Zedex3 votes

How is it a problem? Care to explain?

Game been balanced around Carries winning the game for a long time. They can't do it on their own, if your enemy carry is winning on their own, someone, down the line, fucked up on your team.

Onandaga15 votes

The main reason Yi feels bad to play for a lot of people is because he is a farming jungler in a meta that doesn't allow you to farm the jungle. I think he would be a lot more appreciated if they made changes to make him more reliable in the top lane, where he can farm without getting flame from teammates for not ganking.

Rebonack14 votes

{quoted}

The main reason Yi feels bad to play for a lot of people is because he is a farming jungler in a meta that doesn't allow you to farm the jungle. I think he would be a lot more appreciated if they made changes to make him more reliable in the top lane, where he can farm without getting flame form teammates for not ganking.

Riot has said that they could make Yi totally viable for Plat+ play, but it would come at the cost of him sitting on an ~80% win rate in Bronze.

chipndip114 votes

Whenever Yi doesn't feel shit, the whole community feels shit. Same for Kayle. Same for Sona. Like, it just isn't a fun time when champs that toss big numbers in your shit and shove it are super strong...much like right now huh?

kasfas10 votes

Remember when lategame was 6 items and not 3. I remember.

Teridax689 votes

I think there are a few core issues with the way hypercarries like Kog'Maw scale right now:

  1. Denying their scaling requires constant vigilance and is doomed to fail: Because hypercarries currently mostly scale through last-hitting, whether it's through gold or just by killing minions (Nasus does the latter), they're bound to reach their late-game just by hanging around and doing normal things, without needing to go out of their way to scale besides perhaps farm a little harder. By contrast, denying these champions their farm is a constant uphill battle, as you have to constantly be aware of their location, and search them out to either bully them out of farm or kill them if they're sufficiently overextended. Effectively, countering hypercarries in this climate feels like it takes much more effort than it does for those champions to scale. Because it's impossible to deny all of a champion's gold income, they're bound to scale to late game anyway, regardless of how much effort gets put into shutting them down.
  2. Most hypercarries fundamentally lack counterplay: the problem with prototypical carries like Kog'Maw, Twitch, and to a lesser extent Master Yi, is that their kits are mostly designed to be empty vessels to fill up with items. For champions like these, their counterplay boils down to them not having enough damage to kill enemies before they themselves get killed early on. Because they then get to access this damage later on, this counterplay disappears, and the champions either get focused on by the enemy team and die, or just roll over them. For Master Yi at least, his short range means he's always exposed and vulnerable to focus, but for champions like Kog or Twitch, who can attack from 800+ range, they're much less exposed, particularly if they're also protected by a CC-heavy front line and a pocket enchanter.
  3. Their power curves are stilted and do not involve any real risk: This is more a product of the current meta, but carries in general just don't have weak early games, at least not to a degree that matches their strength in the mid to late game. The fact that these carries also get to become extremely powerful in the mid game already, rather than the late game (sometimes only one or two items are considered enough for champions like Twitch to enter "late game"), also means the period of time where their weakness can be exploited is far too short.

To pick an alternative example, I think Heroes of the Storm has better ways of implementing carry-like scaling: because raw statistical power there is mostly equalized within teams, and their customization options offer bespoke bonuses, characters there often have to spec into late-game power via "Quest" talents: some of these rely on last hitting or farming, but the vast majority of them rely on players going out there and performing relatively difficult challenges, such as by landing difficult abilities, performing feats of strength with them (e.g. landing a single AoE against multiple members of the enemy team) or taking risks. Additionally, when these quests are completed and give rewards, the rewards really are power boosts, but are implemented in such a way that the character still remains interactive, since in many cases that quest may not even have been picked up. When characters are given game-closing abilities later on, these effects are based on unique gameplay, rather than simply pure statistical efficiency: Sgt. Hammer, for example, has an ultimate that basically fires an Ezreal ult, which can also damage structures, and at level 20 she can upgrade it to orbit the map, effectively putting the enemy base on a timer.

All of these differences in implementation lead to late game fantasies that are both more interesting to reach and more interactive when they're achieved. Even in League, scaling systems that are either more original, like Bard's, or more interactive, like Kindred's, tend to be perceived as fairer. If there's any takeaway to be had from Worlds 2017, besides not to overbuff Ardent Censer ever again, it's that hypercarries absolutely need to be pushed away from raw statistical power, and need to interact far more with their opponents in order to reach their late-game fantasy. Even then, though, reaching late game should be a matter of posing a unique threat, instead of simply being able to stat-check everyone else into irrelevance.

Elikain5 votes

Kayle ? No, most people ain't touching her with a 20 foot pole. She's also high up in priority for reworking...so much so she's dragging Morgana into it with her.

What the hell are you talking about? No champion's supposed future rework has ever pulled another champion into the same hole to be reworked. Morgana and Kayle are simply tied together because they are sisters by lore. Therefore, both do need work and once you update one champion, it makes sense to update the other. That way, you can do special interactions between them without having to half-assedly reference them without the other one not even responding.

Hammermancer2 votes

Plus they both need VGUs, I dont think that they need to be changed into new champs but morgana and Kayle could totally be a bit more dynamic.

I feel like I'm eating vanilla icecream whenever i play morgana or kayle, just seems kinda meh to me. Not like they're bad but like the way ww was

chipndip14 votes

They wouldn't rework Morgana if they didn't HAVE to rework Kayle. A rioter posted on how they didn't plan to do too much with Morgana. She's being pulled in because she's tied to Kayle, and it's Kayle that desperately needs a rework.

Rebonack4 votes

You know World's is being played with the broken-as-fuck version of Ardent, right?

chipndip114 votes

Yes, but that's not the problem I have here.

My problem is the overall potential of Kog'Maw in raw damage output is overkill since he doesn't have any other function other than damage. You read the part about Jinx's aoe damage being kneecapped and Vayne's damage against squishies being readdressed on repeat, right? If this was a general complaint about Kog'Maw being strong, I'd say "nerf Kog'Maw!" and I'd circle jerk 50 or more upvotes. It's not. I don't need this many paragraphs to say that. This is about a larger theme.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but that's not the problem I have here.

My problem is the overall potential of Kog'Maw in raw damage output is overkill since he doesn't have any other function other than damage. You read the part about Jinx's aoe damage being kneecapped and Vayne's damage against squishies being readdressed on repeat, right? If this was a general complaint about Kog'Maw being strong, I'd say "nerf Kog'Maw!" and I'd circle jerk 50 or more upvotes. It's not. I don't need this many paragraphs to say that. This is about a larger theme.

So you're looking more at the 'hyper-carry' niche in and of itself? How do you feel about non-Marksmen hyperscalers like Yi and Cho'gath?

And for what it's worth?

The games Koggers has been winning most soundly in? He's been closing the game out at two to three items. That is, in fact, where he's strongest. Twitch and Vayne beat him out by miles as far as late game carries go. Crit/crit damage scales harder than OnHit. Koggers is for carrying the mid-game with his high base damage and Rageblade.

That could be fixed, actually. If Riot really felt like doing so. For the couple patches where his W scaled with his total AD and had zero base damage his mid-game was much weaker and his late game was quite a bit more powerful. But... wouldn't that just make the problem you're worried about worse? Or are you mistaking a mid-game power-spike for a late-game one? Though I suppose with how games go these days, what used to be mid-game may as well be late game.

chipndip18 votes

Cho: I think he's aight. His game play is annoying, yeah, but he's aight. You can kite him. You can dodge his Q. He's a HUGE target for skill shots. He's has things he can fuck up and things he can reliably do. He's not amazing but he's..."aight".

Yi: Fucking awful, but I addressed this already. Logistics of "League comps" doesn't allow for anyone but the bot lane marksman to be the "protected carry" of the game, so Yi being a farming jungler, or Sona being a gold-greedy, near defenseless enchanter, or Kayle being a clunky AA spamming mage top laner...all these things run counter-intuitive to actual intellectual LoL play. Sure, we can just take advantage of solo queue nobodies, but that's rewarding me for my opponent being stupid, not me being good, and I don't like that approach to balancing at all.

Hayaishi24 votes

Many ADCs don't have a niche either, mainly Jinx, Tristana, Kog. Tristana being the worst offender of bland design. Atleast Jinx has different abilities and is requiered to press more buttons than E and Q and the ocassional W to follow up kills like Tristana.

Marksmen that are stat check are too unhealthy for todays game. I'm surprised that now day Riot allows kog maw and Tristana(and twitch to an extent) to be viable when all they do is press 1 button and reach their maximum DPS, why Play Varus, Xayah who have to aim abilities and lose pretty much all of their kill pressure with out them.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

They're not higher up because in most situations they're not a problem.

The gamestate currently is that it's quite easy to boost your power to absurd levels thanks to changed itemization, masteries offering more damage than ever before and the power of protective supports/tanks. Every character you listed (including Kog) also had the problem of being squishy. The only one who really didn't get uber squish was Yi, who often had to dip into tank itemization. Yi, however, was also melee so he kind of deserved a benefit.

"Scaling into a hyper carry" is usually fine for two reasons:

  • You're not invincible and it's easy for you to die to assassins/divers.
  • To reach this stage often took 50+ minutes.

So what happened? Well, thanks to all the assassin QQ, they have "more counterplay" (Read: They're useless) and have pretty much no chance to assassinate their target. Divers are kind of shitty and defensive/protective itemization is better than it ever was. The flip side is that the accelerated game pace has made it so it's easier to get things more than ever. But, as I've said in other posts, this is a biproduct of community bitching. Games are too slow and hyper carries are useless. Now they're all there is and supports reign king in 20-30 minute games.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

They're not higher up because in most situations they're not a problem.

The gamestate currently is that it's quite easy to boost your power to absurd levels thanks to changed itemization, masteries offering more damage than ever before and the power of protective supports/tanks. Every character you listed (including Kog) also had the problem of being squishy. The only one who really didn't get uber squish was Yi, who often had to dip into tank itemization. Yi, however, was also melee so he kind of deserved a benefit.

I'm not complaining about those champs being blatantly op. I'm complaining about how Riot's trying to use a power curve in and of itself as a game play niche and how problematic that is for the game on multiple fronts. Two TOTALLY different arguments, and I use Kog as the poster boy for that argument in this post.

"Scaling into a hyper carry" is usually fine for two reasons:

  • You're not invincible and it's easy for you to die to assassins/divers.
  • To reach this stage often took 50+ minutes.

I didn't say it isn't fine to scale into a hyper carry. However, Kog doesn't have a "thing" he does as a hyper-carry outside of "being a hyper-carry". It's the same thing we reworked Mao/Sej/Zac for. It's the same reason Riot tried to rework Kog the first time.

So what happened? Well, thanks to all the assassin QQ, they have "more counterplay" (Read: They're useless) and have pretty much no chance to assassinate their target. Divers are kind of shitty and defensive/protective itemization is better than it ever was. The flip side is that the accelerated game pace has made it so it's easier to get things more than ever. But, as I've said in other posts, this is a biproduct of community bitching. Games are too slow and hyper carries are useless. Now they're all there is and supports reign king in 20-30 minute games.

Riot could do us all some good by reassessing marksmen as a class. I made a post about adding potential counter-play to the class by giving them all ammo systems to take advantage of, to counter-balance the delayed burst of assassins by giving marksmen brief periods of vulnerability in their sustained damage, which would also add more levers to balance marksmen around (you could potentially say "this champ is super great on raw damage output and has ridiculous range, but has longer periods of downtime between vollies of attacks in comparison to others, for example), but most people came out with a resounding "no". Other idea would be to reassess what these guys do that's unique in comparison to others and mold their strengths and weaknesses to highlight those key aspects more, but Kog doesn't have that like any other late-game scaling champ in his class. He's just a gradually scaling ball of stats. Just like Yi. Just like Kayle. Just like Sona. That's the real message here.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

I'm not complaining about those champs being blatantly op. I'm complaining about how Riot's trying to use a power curve in and of itself as a game play niche and how problematic that is for the game on multiple fronts. Two TOTALLY different arguments, and I use Kog as the poster boy for that argument in this post.

Nor am I. I'm just saying that they're not higher up because they're not a problem most of the time. If a champion is reworked, Riot either has a core problem that permeates to EVERY aspect of the champion (Theme, kit, age, etc) or they have a really good idea to improve them. While they might not be super meta or maybe they're fucking up the meta, they're not really a "problem" so much as the core pick of the meta. Barring being a generalist (Such as what J4 is.)

I didn't say it isn't fine to scale into a hyper carry. However, Kog doesn't have a "thing" he does as a hyper-carry outside of "being a hyper-carry". It's the same thing we reworked Mao/Sej/Zac for. It's the same reason Riot tried to rework Kog the first time.

Kog's thing is that he's the original turret hypercarry. He's the dude who (if it hits late game) will absolutely demolish anyone who gets close to him. The problem is if they get close before he can murder them, he's fucked. Jinx, by comparison, doesn't scale quite as hard as Kog but she makes up for it with flexibility. (AoE Rockets, snare, etc.) Vayne, conversely, is the dueling hypercarry. They tried to move kog further into the turret niche but it didn't work because 5.0 AS was just absurd. Might come back with that ney keystone though!

Riot could do us all some good by reassessing marksmen as a class. I made a post about adding potential counter-play to the class by giving them all ammo systems to take advantage of, to counter-balance the delayed burst of assassins by giving marksmen brief periods of vulnerability in their sustained damage, which would also add more levers to balance marksmen around (you could potentially say "this champ is super great on raw damage output and has ridiculous range, but has longer periods of downtime between vollies of attacks in comparison to others, for example), but most people came out with a resounding "no". Other idea would be to reassess what these guys do that's unique in comparison to others and mold their strengths and weaknesses to highlight those key aspects more, but Kog doesn't have that like any other late-game scaling champ in his class. He's just a gradually scaling ball of stats. Just like Yi. Just like Kayle. Just like Sona. That's the real message here.

I think the problem extends beyond marksmen. I think it extends to the AD type of character as a whole. AD casters, Melee carries, etc. all suffer because Riot's philosophy on how AD works has changed immensely. Juggernauts/Divers don't really have their own itemization outside of things like item 3053 because they either have to get tank items or assassin-y items. Which in turn makes them weaker because they have to try and exist in two different worlds. Marksmen are just another component of the "AD" problem because Riot has a foggy view of what AD should be:

Should melee carries be AD Casters? What about marksmen with AD abilities? Will juggernauts need more itemization changes? etc.

The unique problem as you outline is that Riot has tried to add more levers and diversify what ADCs do. The ADC update was probably the best in terms of diversifying ADCs even if it wasn't totally balanced, as several champions got unique playstyles or upgrades that pushed them more towards defined niches...and people hated it. Hell, people still want old Graves back even though he had an incredibly similar playstyle to Lucian.

It's totally hypothesizing but I think Riot really does want to move champions in such directions...but the community holds them back or gets really made when these situations occur because "my main got changed REEEEEEEEEE". We'll never know for sure but I do think we as a playerbase need to evolve and expand our horizons, not just be victims to the trickle-down effect of pro-play.

Oakleaf Ranger4 votes

kog maw has probably the most retarded passive for an ADC.

Jackom14 votes

Kog's idea would be "kill everything on sight, as long as they don't kill you first". Ideally he should have the highest constant damage in the game, at the cost of bad synergy with sustain items, being overall very squishy and immobile. That means that if your team doesn't protect you efficiently, you'll never be able to deal all your potential damage. Of course, if the champions whose main job is to protect (heal/shield) allies can do so with very little effort and to great efficiency, thanks to kit that lend to little counterplay and overtuned items, the job of "protect the kog" becomes rather simple. And if kog itself happens to synergize pretty efficiently with sustain items (either gunblade or botrk), a thing that he shouldn't have, it easily becomes a problem.

Despite what you said, I do think that kog deserves to be able to deal that much damage (i'd only make a point for guinsoo, which is just a badly implemented item right now), with maybe just a little less range. The problem for me is the fact the kog can neither be efficiently bursted nor does he succumb to sustained damage.

Quil Evrything3 votes

if your team doenst have hard cc enough to stop 1 kog... you have failed in your champ select choices. that's on your team, not riot.

chipndip135 votes

As if the enemy can't draft to negate your cc for the Kog.

As if Kog doesn't scale to the point of making quick work of nearly anyone he's looking at.

As if Kog's AA range doesn't scale up so that divers and assassins have to really put themselves out there just to reach Kog, just to die from being cc'd.

As if cc in general has been reworked on tanks to not be so straight-forward and front-loaded.

Yeah, team comps and shit, but that doesn't mean Kog should just scale into auto-winning vs. nearly anyone in the game, and it doesn't negate any of the points I generally made about that balancing approach. In a strategic game, there needs to be defined give and takes for doing one thing over the other thing. You aren't doing that when someone's just the defined best at the point of their role in comparison to the next guy.

Quil Evrything2 votes

{quoted}

As if Kog's AA range doesn't scale up so that divers and assassins have to really put themselves out there just to reach Kog, just to die from being cc'd.

yse.. you're right. your team.. has to actually work together to win. a lone assassin cannot take down kogmaw mid/late game. team has to work together as a team. to win.

guess what? riot thinks that's a feature, not a bug.

chipndip117 votes

You just take one sentence in an entire response and respond to that without looking at everything else? No wonder you got down voted.

No one's saying you shouldn't work together to win. I AM saying that this "750 range, high dps, life stealing, aoe execute tossing, on-hit abusing raid boss" shit is played out. It's a problem.

Quil Evrything1 votes

riot would probably say "he only has 750 range when w is active, so you ahve a "window of oppotunity". but, i would probably agree with you there. Take away the extra range and make it normal range.

chipndip16 votes

I mean, Jinx's "dps mode" has 525 range, and her "safe, aoe mode" has an attack speed cost. Vayne has nothing beyond 550 range, period.

Why's Kog shooting me down at 750 range with damage like his again?

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Jinx's "dps mode" has 525 range, and her "safe, aoe mode" has an attack speed cost. Vayne has nothing beyond 550 range, period.

Why's Kog shooting me down at 750 range with damage like his again?

Kog hasn't had 750 range since Season 2.

chipndip15 votes

Fair.

710 range. Still out-ranges and out-damages Jinx, with aoe being possible through Runaan's.

Bank of Veggie3 votes

Jinx isn't comparable, her safe mode has absolutely no downtime and has a very minimal mana cost.

She gets to choose what power she has from her Q at every point in the game at every second, Kog'maw uses his W and once it's gone has to wait another 10 seconds to be useful again.

Until you opt into ER lategame, Kog has very significant downtimes that you can play around.

Quil Evrything2 votes

that being said.. a kogmaw thats behind, isnt that much of a threat. Similar to a nasus, or a veigar. you have to keep him behind early lgame. or you die late game. he's weak early game.

chipndip113 votes

You STILL aren't getting the point.

ANY hyper carry is weak early game. ANY hyper carry shares that same weakness. Kog isn't balanced well regardless of the usual logic we'd use here for any other hyper carry. He's just a generalist carry pick, and it's worse because he ramps up into being the best one.

Even Viegar doesn't have amazing poke or wave clear in comparison to other mages. Even Nasus has issues with getting kited in comparison to other juggernauts. Kog, however, has insane damage output and can build Runaan's which applies all his on-hit effects he built up to 2 other targets...and the downside is? Where's the major downside to being Kog as opposed to other hyper-carries at the baseline level? Basically nothing.

Quil Evrything3 votes
  1. shorter normal range (500)
  2. limited escape abilities early game
  3. abilities scale with AP
Sad Tyrant2 votes

Nasher's, Guinsoo, that's 150 AP + resist shred

kek

Kaìju3 votes

Nashers is really bad on him and if you don't believe me ask anyone who mains or OTPs Kog. You need 100 AP for 1% extra damage. Rageblade is the only real AP item you get on him since his scalings actually are not that great. What you're thinking of is probably that he's the only Marksman that can rush Wits End which is hyper cheap and hyper strong on him.

OHminus12 votes

see: Game 5 of WE vs C9

There was PLENTY of hard cc thrown at the kog. But I guess it doesn't matter when Janna and Galio are there, amirite?

chipndip115 votes

That's actually the last straw that made me post this. That specific game. Casters even said it: It's not like C9 missed their shit. Kog was the ONLY damage dealer on the enemy team, but since the entire enemy team keeps him alive, he just gets to be the best damage dealing anything in the game.

LadyRenly3 votes

If scaling into being unstoppable isnt acceptable, then neither is having an uncontestable early game and hope the game goes long enough for them to fall off or not make much impact in teamfights (darius, lucian, pantheon)

dominusx2 votes

Darius has a lot of losing and skill matchups Just because low elos' suck at laning doesnt mean he is too strong. How the fuck can i beat him consistently with Yasuo/Irelia if he is so broken? Go search up 'bostybv' he is one of the strongest darius players in the world i've beat him 5 times in the toplane in our last 10 matches. Am i korean or some shit? I GOT NORMAL IQ something league players lack ever since season 5.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

Kog's niche is that he is absolute damage at the cost of almost everything else. That's always been his niche, it's pretty well defined and he fits it perfectly. The problem is that it's far too easy for his teammates to keep him alive. For almost the entire history of this game kog'maw was balanced by the fact that if someone got to him, he fucking died. Not even just "dead" he was "fucking dead". If he got caught it wasn't even a discussion. For the past two or 3 seasons though, it hasn't mattered anymore. ADCs just have too much survivability from outside sources and their items.

chipndip11 votes

But the dude still overlaps super hard with champs like Vayne and Jinx, but there's nothing to balance him around to fix that since...well...there's nothing there. All he is is damage. It's so generalized it's impossible to find an angle for him to ease off how much damage he gets off without making him feel horrible to play outright.

I should honestly make an "Honestly" post about Jinx now that I think about it, but first...juggernauts...that'll be later, though.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Defensive Base stats would be a pretty decent place to hit him. Make it easier to kill him for anyone who gets to him. Lowering his health per level or armor per level by a few points would make his late game easier to deal with without screwing his early game to hell.

Bârd2 votes

Scaling into an unstoppable late game is fine as a gameplay fantasy.

The issue comes when that "unstoppable late game" is coming at 18 minutes with item 3124 item 3504

PB4UAME5 votes

Strong late game? Sure. Unstoppable, in a multiplayer game? Hell the fuck no.

Keep that shit solely in the realm of single player/PvE games. It has absolutely no place in a multiplayer strategy game.

Blue Mystified1 votes

kog is not as big a problem as twitch. I've played against many a fed kog lately and we can usually melt him because people are A) bad at positioning him B) don't have any cleanse/escape C) my team has half a brain cell and can focused the CCed kog D) all of the above. twitch, on the other hand, has stealth so dumb it bypasses the bad positioning, the escape/cleanse, and almost the CC because he can just ult and kill your team from behind with little counterplay unless their team doesn't follow up on it.

chipndip15 votes

Twitch has been the way he's always been, and has hovered the solo queue win rate he's always hovered. The thing is that stealth is generally stronger in solo queue than it is in organized play due to the lack of coordination, so Twitch just abuses the environment and wins off of that. He isn't actually "off the rails" or anything like that more than he's just doing what he's always done.

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