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It's kind of bullshit that Ryze gets this much attention

chipndip1··145 votes·7,046 views

It's literally a meme at this point that Ryze gets reworked so much, yet Riot's STILL planning on working on this champ more in the near future. What the hell gives? Some champs have to wait years to get another pass on them. Ryze gets confirmed work basically annually, and since Ryze just WILL NOT REMOVE THAT SNARE COMBO, he remains an issue and needs further work in future instances. Then we see our way back to working Ryze again.

Meanwhile, basically every enchanter has shitty, uninteractive game play that Riot chooses to band-aid instead of actually address. No one's gonna remember how I was constantly complaining about how making Sona fight with AAs makes no sense because she's a squishy, back line support, and 550 range is way too close. So instead of fixing these core design issues...we take THAT shit that keeps her from being LCS viable without being solo queue catastrophic...and slap it on Janna ? Then we make that shit scale with fucking move speed!? ABOUT ONE THIRD OF HER BONUS MOVE SPEED? For every 100 MS...just 35 more damage? Why would anyone build into that passive? Why would anyone think that this is going to make Janna's game play more skill-oriented? Sometimes, you just gotta admit that a champ needs more changes at their foundation to make better long-term changes, but Riot seems to be totally adverse to doing that for enchanters...

...and will repeatedly throw shit at the wall for Ryze, to the point where he now has teleportation powers. Like, we get it: People bitch about change. However, what's more important between reworking this champ 50 times and just changing the things we KNOW are causing the biggest issues with his balance? Sometimes the foundation of a champ's game play just need an overhaul. You guys should have done it with Ryze the last time. How long are we gonna go around in circles with this guy? We could be using that time and attention for a ton of other champions. Teemo? Yi? Kayle's already slated so I can't thr-...Wu Kong? Any of these old ass enchanter kits? Idk...but can we please either stop with Ryze or make a fix that actually sticks?

178 Comments

Eedat47 votes

Not quite sure if this is a thread complaining about Ryze, Sona, or Janna really lol

chipndip131 votes

As an enchanter main that still rounds out his point of view for the sake of the game's general health:

All of them at the same time.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

im still waiting for riot to fix soraka so that she isnt forced to go tank to be good

Leońa11 votes

{quoted}

im still waiting for riot to fix soraka so that she isnt forced to go tank to be good

as a supp main with sor being my second highest champ i can GREATLY affirm you do not need to go tank on her to work..... you just need to be good enough to not position like an idiot

Swarovsko23 votes

Janna changes and the fact that they are reworking Ryze before Karma (who needed to be changed ever since her rework went live 5 years ago) proved to me that Meddler should start designing beautiful champions such as Syndra Lissandra Ziggs(who were all designed by him) and stop taking balance decisions. He was so much better as a champion designer.

chipndip15 votes

Actually, if he made all three of them...

You're right.

Death Rex2 votes

Ehhh, I feel like Lissandras Gameplay isn't the best, especially that passive. I like the champion itself, but a low range AP carry with meh scalings feels just weird to me

Swarovsko4 votes

Well you have to consider that she was released in s3, imagine if Meddler designed Liss in s7, she would be beyond beautiful. Also her scalings probably got nerfed many times since she has been a problematic champion top lane.

WoonStruck16 votes

You're implying Riot has had any idea what they're doing for the past 3 years.

chipndip137 votes

But they DO sometimes. Galio rework? WW rework? Current Athene's? Rakan and Bard? They do good work...and then they disappoint me in ways like these and...it's a love/hate relationship with these guys.

Jbels4 votes

{quoted}

But they DO sometimes. Galio rework? WW rework? Current Athene's? Rakan and Bard? They do good work...and then they disappoint me in ways like these and...it's a love/hate relationship with these guys.

Galio turned into another Shen, requiring multiple straight patches of nerfs and even inspiring other tanks who scale AP to abuse a triple doran's ring playstyle, causing THAT item that hadn't ever been an issue before Galio to be nerfed.

People use current Athenes?

Rakan became pick ban in LCS to the point of needing his engage nerfed, and his girlfriend is still making people bleed out their ass (although that's more a problem with Attackspeed stacking ADCs in general than just her)

You got me on Bard. One of the last fair recent designs to come out from Riot, both to the player and the played against. Same with Warwick

Morgan le Fey8 votes

  1. Doran's abuse is a trend that comes and goes. It happens with every Doran's on and off. That's nothing new.

  2. Yup. It's amazing on certain 'chanters. It's very late-game, though.

  3. No comment, don't watch LCS.

  4. BARD [sg-lux]

Rito Staff9 votes

ARAM snowballs aswell, I actually remind myself often how great they are. (I play a lot of ARAM)

BoilTheOil3 votes

galio rework sucked

chipndip110 votes

It's a way better starting point than old Galio, which is the point of reworks: To put champs in a position that'll allow them to be balanced well. The initial results don't have to be amazing, just the end results.

BoilTheOil2 votes

Ok galio rework sucks right now he is a lcs big plays champion right now and isn't very good in solo queue maybe it won't suck in the future

Leetri2 votes

At least there's more than 5 people playing him now.

SpaghettiVase3 votes

Complaining about a vanguard making plays.

Eternal Torment14 votes

I knew ryze needed some minor attention but...

they just...

#TRIPLED

his W scaling.

and after having made 5 reworks one should really assume they have an idea how to finally make him viable. i wonder how many more reworks until riot realizes that it is his instant point& Click root that has been the Problem in every version

Arakadia3 votes

Okay but trippling a 20% scaling into a 60% is very different then trippling the scaling on something like a Brand W.

I can't see this buff turning out well but context is important. Trippling the scaling on an ability is very different then adding 40%.

Tik11510 votes

The issue isn't his permaroot, its the fact he can do so while building extremely tanky and more often then not surviving a pile-on long enough to blow up a squishy, not Season 2-3 Tanky but still tanky

Put simply his whole "More damage with more mana" and the instentive to build tank while still dishing out tons of damage has to go or be severely lessened

And they can't pull that "It's his identity we can't rework him without changing it" crap because they spat in the face of preserving identity in the past (regardless on if said identity was fine or not) (Cassiopeia Galio Karma Mordekaiser Sion Soraka Sona )

Eternal Torment8 votes

He doesn't have a perma Root, first of all. His root is pretty short lasted (0.75 seconds, 2 seconds if Flux empowered) on a comparably high cooldown.

The Problems with that spell are mainly 2 Things.

  1. It is Instant. It has no cast time and barely an animation
  2. it is Targeted. A Point& Click hard CC spell on a mage that can burst you as fast as viktor is mainly toxic design.

Ryze's "Mana for damage" Build has been for the most part kinda solved because he now gets Percentage mana for building ap, which means he has no more flat mana stats that let him go full tank and still pool out spams for dayz because he has a frozen heart. nononono.

This ryze actually requires a damage Build to be viable.

And Ryze's identity as i am concerned is a Rune mage, a grumpy runemage who can quick cast and rotate his skills multiple times in succession within shortest spans of time.

Changing any of that would hurt his identity. Hurting his mana passive would hurt his identity.

Making his CC a skillshot wouldn't. Ryze's Problem is that he is so heavily point& Click based for a Swifty as fuck burst mage. And even more so if one of These spells is a basic hard CC spell that is literally everything in his kit. Initiation, set up, engage, disengage, security and failsafe.

His W is the one and only Problem he has when it Comes to balancing. so much that riot nerfed it 2x in a row when this version was released, along with other stuff.

DeadUnborn2 votes

{quoted}

One of the more spread out memes, is Riot's failure to bring Ryze to a balanceable state after numerous reworks. I believe I just thought of a way to bring him there without changing him significantly. Let me know what you guys think!

New W (has two parts):

  • Click on ability: When cast on enemy champion, target is debuffed and gets a slow that scales with level up to 45%

  • Target is debuffed for .85 seconds; if Ryze procs his passive by using w,e +q on same target, the enemy is snared for 1 second

NOTE: Debuff uses a dimmer version of current rune prison for vfx; the snares uses the empowered version of rune prison's vfx

  1. Debuff counts towards Ryze's rune passive ( so you can w and e + q to activate it)
  2. debuff part of W resets q still target is debuffed for .75 seconds

New R: Runic Overcharge

  • Still has only two points to rank

  • Still creates two circles, one at target location and one at a distance (range is slightly shorter than current rank 1 R)

  • When activated, Ryze becomes empowered while standing in the circle just like Kindred's W (the second circle doesn't activate until Ryze first steps on it)

  • While on the Circles, Ryze gains movement speed, 40% increase on his total mana (which scales with his abilities), and his W and E become 1 second CD

  • Based on rank, the Circles last for 1.5/2 seconds each. The second circle doesn't become active until Ryze steps on it, but expires after 4 seconds if Ryze doesn't step on it.

NOTE: Ryzes basic ability damage, CD and scaling can be adjusted to compensate if overbuffed

Linna Excel6 votes

Other reworks have happened and are happening. However until riot gets him right, he going to keep getting reworks.

chipndip112 votes

I wish some other champs got that type of attention. Other champs just get dumpstered for X years before a mini-rework. Ryze has had like 2-3 full on VGUs at this point.

SanKakU1 votes

What? When did Ryze ever get a visual rework? He's still the same tall, blue, bald, and tattooed guy with a scroll on his back that he's always been...some minor visual updates, I can believe that, sure. But a visual rework? Nah, I don't know, not if we're talking about champion deletion like what happened to Galio. Are you trying to say you want them to radically change his appearance?

DrCyanide5 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iciFgEwh20g/VQCk6bAMIGI/AAAAAAAAllM/sHCQx1Ty1CQ/s1600/baseryzecompare.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DwoCR6LC5lk/V3LofxFmiwI/AAAAAAAAQ-M/oO0PVUf3EtoJOdQyb1mbem2Bw_VizD7YgCKgB/s1600/ryze0compare.jpg

Ahris2 votes

Riot messed up on Ahri and she isn't(pretty sure) getting a rework.

Ryze not getting a rework will allow one more champ to get reworked. That is the attention other champs need.

Linna Excel8 votes

I don't think Ahri needs a rework to fix. Just a balance tweak here or there if she really is too weak or too strong. I mean I'd like it if they gave her a new W, but that's not necessary right now.

Ryze needs a lot more work than a tweak by the live balance team.

Arakadia6 votes

Sona using autos does make sense from a balance standpoint because otherwise she would never have to get anywhere near the enemy. Putting some power in her autos forces her to be more interactive.

chipndip115 votes

It's a bullshit way to force interaction. She's too squishy to survive being that close. Any all-in can potentially remove her from the game. She's also insanely slow at her base speed. She ALSO has no solid means of self-peel until level 6, and even that's on a long cd until she hits 45% cdr after level 11.

Other champs, like Karma, Lulu, and Nami, can have functional kits without being forced into such close ranges (although Karma and Lulu have different design issues). Just because someone has to be more interactive doesn't mean we have to give them the dumbest, laziest way to make that happen.

Arakadia8 votes

She does survive being that close or else her winrate would be abysmal. It just makes Janna have to play somewhat risky for higher reward.

chipndip14 votes

No she doesn't. Or rather, she doesn't when people are better at the game and actually coordinate their offenses. That's why she's shit in pro play, even when she's absolutely insane in solo queue (60% win rate/10% play rate led to a 33% win rate in pro play). Her kit's legitimately AWFUL and can't be made to that golden standard of "Pretty good in both environments". Why? Because the foundation of it depends on the enemy playing poorly, not you playing well.

Now, she's doing well now because she's a glorified stat stick and coin allows her to roll her items in insanely fast, which is why everyone's using it on her instead of STE like they traditionally did.

Swarovsko4 votes

Before all this shit with support itemization happened, she had 45% win rate in challenger/master and 49% in diamond with 4% pick rate. She's only strong right now because her interaction with item 3070 item 3301 item 3504 is completely overpowered. Let's not forget the countless of threads which asked Riot to give Sona a gameplay update since she was completely unviable in high elo a year ago.

HaIlMonitor6 votes

A big thing I notice is when something fails at Riot they sometimes dont listen to feedback and then start to put it in new places. The most current one is rengar mains hate his new kit, especially his Q, well then why is riot making the same skill in Xins kit? Will that magically make people love it?

Something else I find weird is why do some champs like Ryze get the never ending buffs/nerfs, but then other champs that have a higher play rate (aka bring in more money for the company) they seem afraid to change?

LXII3 votes

To be fair I don't think the Q is bad as a spell, I (and prob others) just liked the old one more on Rengar. This isn't an issue with Xin because his old W was nothing but a steroid that is still fully intact spread out across other parts of his kit passively. Personally I think it's pretty cool on him since it finally adds some actual spear advantages into his gameplay.

MLDzXnRRR5 votes

They probably don't want to remove the root, because it is one of the few reliable spells that stops dashing Yasuos, Rivens etc.

chipndip15 votes

But that root is the core issue in EVERY VERSION of this character. Maybe if they wanted his Rune Prison to be his ULT, then make it a bigger deal, that could be a thing, but as a low cd combo-fodder tool? Hell no this shit sucks.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

At most it's a 2 second root on a 9 second cooldown. Roots don't stop you from attacking or casting abilities as long as they aren't movement related. There's nothing in ryze's kit stopping you from poking back. He is entirely magic damage, and riot even gave us an item to screw over spam-casters a while back. The passive shield they added in the previous rework was unnecessary since he already often built to be durable; however he's still quite immobile without his ultimate. The problem is that he's combo reliant, a magic dps champion; someone you're not supposed to solo unless you can get the drop on him.

chipndip13 votes

The root makes him cancer to melee champions.

The root also makes escaping HIS burst-per-second rotations incredibly difficult, if not impossible, after getting rooted the first time.

Like...Cass's machine gun mechanic is her E, laced with Q. Without Q, her E's weak, and only her ult holds people still to get hit by Q. If you can dodge Q, you'll eventually get out of range for her E. This type of game play makes her, as a battle mage, WAY less toxic than Ryze, who just resets his hard cc on your face a few times for free.

Requiemsfire4 votes

This is the kind of thread we upvotes bois because we hate Ryze and that's in the title.

chipndip111 votes

Don't try to tie hive-mind mentalities to my threads. I'm above that nonsense.

Rito Staff8 votes

His point is fairly straight no? Ryze, and other champions, do get a LOT more attention than others

Nymzo4 votes

{quoted}

Then we make that shit scale with fucking move speed!? ABOUT ONE THIRD OF HER BONUS MOVE SPEED? For every 100 MS...just 35 more damage? Why would anyone build into that passive? Why would anyone think that this is going to make Janna's game play more skill-oriented?

Because most people do not main support, they at best played it when they are autofilled and have limited informations about them. I still see people on these boards placing every support in the same basket despite having subclass like juggernauts vs fighter vs tank.

But the truth is that this Janna rework is only in responce to the community's backlash considaring all she gets is a mini rework from Repertoire and not a VGU spot.

For what I realized after talking on that issue on the boards since the last couple of days, most non-support mains either do not realize the issue with that passif or do not care because they are tilted and wishs her to be gutted or think this will do the job.

At this point, I might make a topic on that issue myself.

Glory973 votes

Yes ryze needs a rework. He has the lowest winrate and is unpopular. But it will probably just another try of riot to create a caster mage with the uniqueness that he can reset his spells. One day they'll understand that it's impossible to balance a mage that resets his spells. Doing dps while not completly beeing demolished in short trades early in midlane? Ryze is either beyond broken or absolute garbage. And he'll get his annual rework until riot gives up on the idea of "reset spells mage"

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Ryze gets several reworks, meanwhile Wukong hasn't been touched for about 4 years now aside from some global mechanic updates that affect champs across the board. I know he's not exactly in a bad spot, but every Diver that gets updated/ gets added is ANOTHER reminder that Wukong's kit is old as dirt and doesn't offer anywhere near the same versatility as newer Divers get now a days. His kit is pretty much as boring as Xin's current one, but without the benefit of both a healing passive AND a new skill shot ability coming soon.

Blåbæret3 votes

Wukong needs an actual passive. He also needs a slight damage buff to his early game. Especially his jungle clear needs improvement. If they could turn his E into a skillshot and make it a bit more powerful as well as interact with his new passive (no idea what it would be yet though), that would be nice. It would also make him a bit less braindead.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I actually had an idea for his E where it sort of works like Ornn's ult where Wukong summons his cloud, has it starting away from him then fly to him. Then if he clicks it right when its next to him, he will jump on the cloud. could a ms boost that goes away if he gets hit by CC.

FantasySniper1 votes

While I agree with most everything here...

550 range is way too close

Just... what? Isn't that the definition of risk and reward? Balance levers?

chipndip13 votes

Yeah, but you also have to take into consideration things like logistics. Balancing Sona around AAs isn't really a flexible balance lever.

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