Assassins can't kill Vayne

LechintanTudor·Jan 24, 2018·94 votes·6,022 views

Assassins can barely get on top of Vayne and if they manage to do so they will be condemned into a wall and instantly killed. Also the fact that her ult's duration is increased whenever she kills someone is absurd. How can I kill someone in a teamfight if most of the time they are invisible? Also one Vayne Q deals half of my health as a squishy champion.

Assassins have delayed burst. Vayne doesn't. Assassins need to hit skillshots. Vayne doesn't. Assassins can't kill tanks. Vayne can. Assassins aren't good at teamfighting. Vayne is.

A champion so good should be able to be taken down. Make her E a skillshot so assassins can use their mobility to get on top of her, and increase the cooldown on her Q so she doesn't burst harder than an assassin. Any assassin should be able to kill her no matter at which point of the game.

182 Comments

Evil YasuoJan 24, 201827 votes

I made a thread similar. Not sure if Talon will ever get his burst speed back but rengar's sure as fuck looks sweet on the pbe.

Wukong AirlinesJan 24, 20181 votes

what i hate the most is that they reworked his Q to not be effective in splitpushing vs towers or crit as much as it used to [[with item 3031 ]] .

Votable JesterJan 24, 20182 votes

I'm more than happy with the removal of crit on Talon (I don't like relying on rng), but yeah, the loss in tower damage is pretty significant.

LechintanTudorJan 24, 201858 votes

I think delayed burst is a good mechanic but assassins shouldn't be the only champions affected by it. If Vayne can kill a squishy champion faster and more reliably than an assassin, she makes every assassin worse than her.

YaskamasandwichJan 24, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I think delayed burst is a good mechanic but assassins shouldn't be the only champions affected by it. If Vayne can kill a squishy champion faster and more reliably than an assassin, she makes every assassin worse than her.

YES YOU GET IT!!! Delayed burst was needed and is a bit more healthy. Burst was getting out of hand and was ruining the game. Hoowever Riot only nerfed burst on Assassins when it should have been just a global burst nerf. That way Assassins had the best burst in a delayed fashion with mobility. Everyone would have a win.

ChaddyFantomeJan 24, 20189 votes

{quoted}

I made a thread similar. Not sure if Talon will ever get his burst speed back but rengar's sure as fuck looks sweet on the pbe.

Talon's Burst speed is fine if you actually know what you are doing.

HaIlMonitorJan 24, 20183 votes

Shhhhh. Keep the focus on new swain..... SHHHH

AyzevJan 24, 20185 votes

Was it ever really gone though? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riofs7tD_V0&ab_channel=LOLMOBAVideoNetwork

HaIlMonitorJan 24, 20189 votes

level up, 3 kills and an assist, and a whole duskblade....

Votable JesterJan 24, 20183 votes

Also probably safe to assume the Zed is something around 0/1 or 0/2 and is down cs. Fair chance he hadn't even bought any armor, greeding in the hope for future kills.

NineTailedMysticJan 25, 20183 votes

how the fuck do you buy armor as an AD assassin? First item GA?

Votable JesterJan 25, 20185 votes

GA or ninja tabi are pretty much the only options, but they're very significant. The 30 armor on tabi is enough to counter the early lethality stacking for the most part. Grabbing an early tabi is perfectly reasonable if you're losing hard against an ad assassin and don't desperately need one of the other boots.

buPPDrmXEOJan 24, 201815 votes

Assassins can't even kill Kog Maw, or any ADC as long as their support-slave with 2k shields is next to them. It's funny how Kog Maw can just stand still and melt the assassin down while healing full hp after the shields come in.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 24, 201823 votes

Hmm. It's almost as if you're not meant to win a 1v2!.

It's a fascinating and new concept, but supports are actually champions now, meaning that, if you're facing their support and their ADC together, it's not a 1v1, but a 1v2!

It's a very new concept, true, so it may take some getting used to. I wish you luck in memorizing this, so that it may let you win your matches!

mew28Jan 25, 20183 votes

We are not asking to survive a 2v1 just kill the squishiest person on the team before we die in said 2 v 1.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 25, 20184 votes

Except the purpose of one of those 2 isn't to kill you, but to prevent you from killing someone.

If it was the ADC and their mid, that'd be a different story. Although you might end up dying, odds are you're going to kill one of them if you dodge their CC. But the Janna/Lulu/Soraka exists for the sole purpose of making sure that the ADC (or anyone else) doesn't die.

Also, part of the problem is that most assassins see the support blow their kit on their ADC, and neither back off to wait for it to expire, nor do they swap targets, and nuke the now-defenseless support.

mew28Jan 25, 20182 votes

Most assassins need to commit to the target. Zed for example can't ult the ADC say "weelp Lulu ulted and shielded Ashe better try for lulu now." It is "well Ashe just got any extra 1000 HP after I dumped my full kit inter her. Guess I get to die now." The support can be purely reactive if their shields had a delay to cast it would even out.

YaskamasandwichJan 24, 201811 votes

Unfortunately Vayne always did this. She always out bursted Assassins and out dueled them since day one. She was never a tank buster, she always was the prime mega 1v1 duelist that made Jax cry. Nasus was the only one who can beat her 1v1 with his wither. However since his wither range got nerfed he can not touch her in 5v5 team fights. So even if you finally find the upper hand on her 1v1 she can transition so well into team fights. This was always the case since season 3 with the BORK changes and the item being buffed for her.

JabaTheHatJan 24, 201811 votes

Some of the points here are legit while others are totally wrong...

Assassins have delayed burst. Vayne doesn't. Assassins need to hit skillshots. Vayne doesn't. Assassins can't kill tanks. Vayne can. Assassins aren't good at teamfighting. Vayne is.

This is true. But the problem is caused by her ult AD steroid and the statik+ RFF + IE combo. One is already massively nerfed. The when the other gets nerfed she won't have this insane burst.

Make her E a skillshot so assassins can use their mobility to get on top of her

Awful change. Vayne is sh1t most of the time in most metas(will likely be so after the massive nerfs she got). Reliability is needed for an ADC that provides literally nothing but damage.

and increase the cooldown on her Q so she doesn't burst harder than an assassin

This is not what causes the burst. Ult AD + statik + RFF + IE is the vast majority of the burst.

Any assassin should be able to kill her no matter at which point of the game

Nope, vayne's strength is in kiting and dueling. The outcome of vayne vs assassin should be a skill match up. This is something that almost no other ADC can do. But in having this she is also worse than other ADCs in many other aspects --- no long range spells, no utilities whatsoever, no AOE damage/farming capability.

Vayne deserved nerfs and she got them. Asking for more unreasonable nerfs is just wrong.

CHODES AND LOADSJan 25, 20187 votes

"no utility" "literally nothing but damage"

has knockback+stun and stealth

[sg-lux-2]

Total AtrophyJan 24, 20188 votes

HEY GUYS LETS BUFF LETHALITY.

AmazoXJan 24, 201811 votes

{quoted}

HEY GUYS LETS BUFF LETHALITY.

So marksmen abuse the lethality items again? Fuck no. (Feelsbad Assassins are restrained)

HaIlMonitorJan 24, 20184 votes

Make lethality melee only....

RysophageJan 24, 20182 votes

On the behalf of MissFortune Lucian and Quinn , shut up.

RainbowIceeJan 24, 20184 votes

ehmmm tbh MF will be fine even without lethality

Radio RenegadeJan 24, 20188 votes

Personally I think if they gave the burst back to assassins then the whole ADC being op thing would be over with. I main ADC and I think that ADC's should be rewarded for positioning right and for watching where the enemy is (by being able to actually do a shit ton of damage) but should be punished if they misposition or if they aren't watching where the enemy assassin is. Vayne's secondary is assassin and to be fair she is made to 1v1, which is also why she has no extra range/aoe. But I think giving assassins back the burst is one of the best things Riot could do.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 24, 201839 votes

Not only would it be over for ADCs, it'd be over for every non-assassin.

Literally the only people who like assassin metas are assassins. ADCs hate it because they never get the chance to do anything in a fight, mages hate it because they're dead as soon as their CC wears off, divers...either hate it because they're outclassed by assassins (if assassins are buffed to create the meta), or are loving it because they are assassins (because they've gone with straight assassin items, because items have been buffed). Tank mains hate it because they get flamed if they ever go anything else, and because people are playing their mains like shit. Enchanters hate it because their shields, heals, and buffs mean jack shit when assassins burst past it, completely ignoring their entire kits...

Assassins as an overall class are fine. There are certain cases which need work (LeBlanc being a potato, while a few assassins just wipe entire teams. General issue is armor and MR are too low on everyone but tanks), but the class is fine. Delayed burst allows squishies to actually react. Before that, the ADC/enchanter was dead the second a Zed/Talon/Kat walked onto their screen, unless they were just so far ahead of the assassin that they could just face-tank their burst. Now, they actually get a chance to do things.

ExecutionerJan 24, 201816 votes

Oh my, someone actually gave out some truth. Surprised you didn't get down voted to hell.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 24, 20183 votes

Just give it a bit. It'll happen soon enough.

AleksaTeemoJan 24, 20184 votes

Down votes incoming(i upvoted it btw)

DuskDaUmbreonJan 24, 20183 votes

Yep. They're coming here.

Thanks. o3o

RysophageJan 24, 20183 votes

Tell me how I'm supposed to keep track of champions I can't see please.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jan 24, 20188 votes

Bad players can't kill vayne as assasains*

ElohavenJan 24, 20188 votes

Before anyone upvotes this post, notice the OP never stated he did poorly in his game: http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=LechintanTudor

Here is the Vayne: http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=stefdmg

His last match against Vayne was where she was 41/9/9 - no wonder he lost. Thus, this is a vent post. He was 14/11/17. OP never built a single armor item either.

Vayne requires to be close to melee range - a range where CC and skillshots are very landable in a teamfight. With the amount of CC in a game, she's easy to catch out. She also is weak in coordinated teams and his team lacked this strongly compared to theirs.

Her Q doesn't burst by the way. There's actually no damage since it's additive damage which doesn't crit. Her tumble is mainly for kiting. The sole purpose of Vayne is to be hard to catch - "Fighting against me is like boxing with shadows".

She just got a nerf BTW, so we'll need to see how she does first.

Assassins shouldn't kill tanks - they're not ADCs.

Assassins aren't meant for teamfighting - they're not ADCs. They're meant to get in and out of the chaos of teamfights - assassination. Picking those out of position.

Assassins need skillshots - they're not the marksmen role. Assassins have delayed burst - many ADCs have the same amount of burst as Vayne and worse.

You're naming ADC traits and associating them solely to strengths of Vayne when all ADCs are like this. Twitch has a much higher DPS and burst potential than Vayne. Tristana offers the same kind of burst but with more safety. Notice, they are all good at teamfighting, killing tanks, and do not have delayed burst when they gain critical strike items.

Any assassin shouldn't be able to kill an ADC at any point of the game - else why should an ADC position/kite/receive peel.

This post seems composed more out of irritation than analytical suggestion.

If you're being bursted as an assassin, armor items are always there or damage reduction items. Just like ADCs are squishy, assassins are too due to the amount of damage their kits can create with just two items. An item 3031 item 3087 item 3147 item 3142 easily offers no reaction time for an ADC to live through a single combo or an AA without significant armor. The same thing with assassins if they lack an armor item. If they cannot at least get randuins, GA, or defensive item to itemize against an ADC, why shouldn't you be punished.

TL;DR - Inability to defeat a very fed Vayne who has showcased amazing skill statistically with her carry that game made this OP tilt. Thus, he is using the Vayne hate bandwagon and coming to the boards. Also forgets to mention Vayne had peel and tanks defending her with a lot of CC. She also had a PD, mercurials, and 3 crit items against Zed.

So @OP, a quote for you:

"Oh no, assassins have to work to kill an adc. What a tragedy" -- Friend (Hidden)

LechintanTudorJan 25, 20182 votes

We actually won the early and mid game. We got to their base and left a single Nexus turret and it the following teamights Vayne 1v5 us. We were all full build. After a fight only me and Vayne were alive and I had to watch her take our inhib because I knew I couldn't kill her. AND I WAS ZED.

ElohavenJan 25, 20183 votes

You let her hit lategame. You didn't duel her - so I'm assuming you just stayed in your base.

After a fight only me and Vayne were alive and I had to watch her take our inhib because I knew I couldn't kill her. AND I WAS ZED.

By the way, Zed beats Vayne if she doesn't have her ult. Just saying.

She was 41/9 - of course. She was much more skilled than you. That wasn't Vayne, that was a player who was leagues better than you. Why should they have lost when they carried their team who fed?

She did an amazing job. You failed miserably and threw and let them come back. There's literally no excuse you have left. The numbers tell it all and the graphs.

ninjaroxasJan 25, 20181 votes

How many games does that vayne have that they went even close to 41/9 Not as vayne. If you also note all but 1 game as vayne was in flex and she didn't do nearly as well in their solo games so odds are she's actually just having their team babysit them

ElohavenJan 25, 20182 votes

He is using that game as an example. We're not using any game before Patch 8.2.

You don't have to go 41/9 to win as a Vayne - just saying the Vayne solo-carried as a player. If she didn't go 41/9 and won, then that's a typical game of League where her team did good. I don't see your point.

ChaddyFantomeJan 24, 20187 votes

Assassins can't kill anything past 15-20 mins.

Daddy Tie Me UpJan 24, 20182 votes

Ahri AurelionSol Jinx Jinx Jinx Jinx Jinx Karthus Lux MissFortune Orianna Syndra Taliyah Veigar Viktor Xerath Zyra ?

BloodbornSJan 24, 20186 votes

You literally didnt post one official assasin [sg-ahri-1]

PrinceOfStormsJan 24, 20185 votes

A champion so good should be able to be taken down. Make her E a skillshot so assassins can use their mobility to get on top of her, and increase the cooldown on her Q so she doesn't burst harder than an assassin. Any assassin should be able to kill her no matter at which point of the game.

Also, make any AA empowered by Tumble unable to crit, period. Not just the bonus damage from tumble, but all the damage from the tumble empowered AA. That way if Vayne players want to build crit, they have to stand there and turret - Tumbling will reduce their damage.

LechintanTudorJan 24, 20183 votes

That Q change would be great. That way assassins would be able to kill her without getting bursted. If she doesn't use her dash/stealth assassins can combo her and kill her. If she uses her Q assassins will have a hard time killing her but they don't get bursted. Either way this change would favor assassins and that's the way it should be. ADCs should fear assassins.

AaravosJan 24, 20185 votes

While it's true, Tristana is far worse. Nerf her first

LechintanTudorJan 24, 201816 votes

At least you can see Tristana

Iffy JarlJan 25, 20183 votes

which assasin are we talking about here because Akali Evelynn Fizz Kayn Maokai Zed don't seem to be having that hard of a time.

Ariel the CruelJan 25, 20183 votes

Hm.....

One of trees is not like the others...

SpecterVonBarenJan 25, 20183 votes

Here's the problem with Vayne at the moment.

item 3153 She doesn't build this item first anymore.

Crit builds spike too hard, too early, to the point that the item that has been tied to Vayne for almost its entire existence is no longer bought on her.

And keep in mind, this is not an apologist speaking. Vayne is the champion in the game that if I was given the ability to remove one champion from the game, would be my pick. I hate her theme, I hate her character, I hate her gameplay, I hate her design, I hate the kinds of players she attracts and I hate playing against her. But the problem is with ADC itemization being all kinds of messed up.

Violet FieldsJan 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Assassins need to hit skillshots. Vayne doesn't.

Akali Katarina Kassadin Rengar Yasuo Shaco Irelia Diana Shyvana Syndra Ryze

Sorry but they seem all point and click to me, the skill shots aren't even their main damage source.

BârdJan 25, 20185 votes

Yasuo is a skirmisher, not an assassin. His Q is a skill shot, and is a lot of his damage. It's easy to land the regular one, but the tornado is harder. Irelia is a fighter, not an assassin. Shyvana is a freight-train juggernaut, not an assassin. Syndra is a burst mage, not an assassin. Every spell but her ult is a skill shot, and they're all pretty important to her damage output. Ryze is a battlemage, not an assassin. His Q is a skill shot, and it's the vast majority of his damage output.