If marksmen are having issues surviving...

chipndip1·Feb 11, 2017·32 votes·2,479 views

...why aren't they building Death's Dance?

46 Comments

GigglesOFeb 12, 20178 votes

{quoted}

...why aren't they building Death's Dance?

item 3046

12% damage reduction...

chipndip1Feb 12, 20174 votes

Exactly. WHY AREN'T PEOPLE STACKING THESE PASSIVES?

xeviFeb 12, 20172 votes

you actually have to hit the enemy with an auto to get the pd passive off.

good assassins wont give you any time to hit them

needless to say, steraks + dd is a decent defensive core but you're losing out on a ton of damage when rushing these items. they make good 4th/5th buys

chipndip1Feb 12, 20173 votes

To be fair, that's a FED assassin that won't give you a chance to react. Even if you're good, you can't insta-burst someone unless you're fed.

...or Syndra. >_>

WoonStruckFeb 12, 20176 votes

You can attack-move and hit ANYTHING that isn't 100% instantaneous before it hits you.

You can attack Vlad twice before he can cast anything coming out of pool using attack move.

SpoofghoulFeb 12, 20171 votes

only steraks makes you lose actual damage

most of the other defensive options really do not make you lose out on much damage at all

DD still gives 75 ad which is pretty good if u ask me

C0ck LordFeb 12, 20177 votes

Well, good to know that you've never played an ADC/Marksmen in your life, if you're making this statement.

Sire HippingtonFeb 12, 20177 votes

because the BT shield helps just as much vs burst and it gives more LS? Because mercurial is flat out better if your reactions are fast? Because the spelldhield from Edge of Night saves far more lifes than the dot conversion?

Marksmen have plenty of defensive items at their disposal, why would they root for one of the weaker once?

The question would be more why adc still 5 off items+boots IF the really have issues surviving....

SpecterVonBarenFeb 12, 20172 votes

Because the second they build a defensive item they'll get flammed by their team.

Awesomedude8888Feb 13, 20171 votes

And, for most ADCs, they become useless.

EndlessSorcererFeb 11, 20176 votes

Generally, marksmen have issues surviving the laning phase due to frequent ganks (since FB tower and Dragon are rather important objectives).

Besides, the shield on Bloodthirster is general better for survivability.

chipndip1Feb 11, 20175 votes

Lemme put it like this:

If your issue is surviving a high burst rotation, you'd think one would be buying DD/PD because you won't have much time to utilize Thirster's shield anyway. Shields mimic your defenses when applied, so a marksman getting his 1.5k hp bursted by, like, 2k total damage with a 25% hp shield is still going to die, but someone with nearly 30% of that initial burst shaved off might be able to life steal back and live. I should have used better numbers, but the Thirster dies while the DD/PD combo lives at 50 or so hp until the first bleed tick...assuming both passives are working at the same time by the time the burst comes out.
If you're a champ that's considered a caster, this gives AD/life steal on ALL forms of damage dealt, not just AAs/CDR. Why aren't you building this? Even if you end up building this AND Thirster, why aren't you building this?
If you're fighting sustained damage or you aren't dying that fast in general for whatever reason, THEN you may want Thirster because it gives a bit more sustain while using AAs + it gives you that initial shield.

Hexs FortuneFeb 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lemme put it like this:

If your issue is surviving a high burst rotation, you'd think one would be buying DD/PD because you won't have much time to utilize Thirster's shield anyway. Shields mimic your defenses when applied, so a marksman getting his 1.5k hp bursted by, like, 2k total damage with a 25% hp shield is still going to die, but someone with nearly 30% of that initial burst shaved off might be able to life steal back and live. I should have used better numbers, but the Thirster dies while the DD/PD combo lives at 50 or so hp until the first bleed tick...assuming both passives are working at the same time by the time the burst comes out.

If you're a champ that's considered a caster, this gives AD/life steal on ALL forms of damage dealt, not just AAs/CDR. Why aren't you building this? Even if you end up building this AND Thirster, why aren't you building this?

If you're fighting sustained damage or you aren't dying that fast in general for whatever reason, THEN you may want Thirster because it gives a bit more sustain while using AAs + it gives you that initial shield.

Mainly because it doesn't build out of bf sword

Truly PridefulFeb 11, 20176 votes

I just buy whichever component of GA I need for the game ( Chain Vest or Negatron ) and hold onto it until 5th or 6th item before I complete GA. Usually works out fine and isn't that bad of a gold detour to survive.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 12, 20176 votes

here is why marskmen are dying. because everyone is playing supports that have no fucking peel. brand zyra and vel koz don't do anything for the adc. but they also kill the other damn adc so fast too.

AirKingNeoFeb 12, 20175 votes

Because death's dance makes it a DoT, you're still blown up in a snap.

chipndip1Feb 12, 201710 votes

So lifesteal something.

Part of the damage you take is reserved as a DoT that becomes more potent as you take even more damage, right? Then you need to lifesteal some health back and then you won't die by the time it's done. To the very least, you'll be able to get more accomplished before you keel over.

AirKingNeoFeb 12, 20172 votes

The hell will lifesteal do when you're trying to run away and getting bursted?

chipndip1Feb 12, 20176 votes

If it's burst, it's a rotation. Which means it ends. Which means your AAs coupled with your AD spells will keep you alive. It's "Death's Dance", not "Death's Pardon". You still keep in the fight, but it reduces the effect of burst on you by delaying it.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 12, 20179 votes

When you get combo'd by a burst champ, it is usually more than 15% of your max health as over kill. I like the premise of it, but it actual practice, it doesn't work out.

ExalomaniacFeb 12, 20173 votes

item 3165 AAAAAAND no more lifesteal for you.

chipndip1Feb 12, 20171 votes

BT suffers the same thing.
Burst is still set off to the side in a DoT.

ll Ainz Sama llFeb 12, 20171 votes

ADC's don't really build lifesteal anymore because one rotation usually equals death. You're better off going double zeal or lethality for maximum damage and maybe lifesteal 6th item.

Unlucky47Feb 12, 20171 votes

For all these adcs being instant killed it's fun watching jinx stand in one place and stay at full health from warlords and bloodthirster after being cced and dropped to 100 health. Weak as fuck tbh.

DarthSpectrumFeb 12, 20175 votes

Building Death's Dance won't necessarily solve a Marksman's survivibility problems.

The item isn't really efficient to rush. Most ADCs need AS or AD more in the early game and would rather get a significantly cheaper Zeal item or Lethality item than the 3500 g Death's Dance. One of the greatest struggles for ADCs right now is that the enemy team can easily dive them under tower during the laning phase. ADCs wouldn't want to put themselves at a further disadvantage by rushing Death's Dance.

I personally think that DD is a great item since it offers LF and CDR, but honestly it works better on AD casters like Talon or Kha'zix. It works well on certain ADCs like Varus, but otherwise the 15% damage delay just doesn't matter enough. Most assassins after the rework will deal way more damage than necessary on a target. Unless you pair DD with PD and your support gets item 3109 and item 3222 it is simply more worth it for an ADC to go full crit or lethality and try to do as much damage before they die.

chipndip1Feb 12, 20171 votes

Assassins got their reworks in the first place to slow down their damage. How successful that was varies, but their burst rotations are all delayed at this point. If they're fed...yeah, you die the same, but at that point hardly anything you build will save you. Someone else has to save you.
BT is rarely rushed either. Why is DD different?

The Yetii RiderFeb 12, 20174 votes

The simple and clear answer is that Death's Dance has a really awkward build path. There's no component of Death's Dance that is easy for marksmen to rush or sit on, and they're all terrible to build second as well.

GigglesOFeb 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRxsFZFB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-12T01:19:58.515+0000)

The simple and clear answer is that Death's Dance has a really awkward build path. There's no component of Death's Dance that is easy for marksmen to rush or sit on, and they're all terrible to build second as well.

item 1053 isn't easy to build?

The Yetii RiderFeb 12, 20172 votes

Not at all. If it was people would actually build BT before the end of the game.

AFilthyCaitMainFeb 12, 20174 votes

Now for me personally, its very hard to alter your build path. you need a lot of core items to be very useful, and sometimes its very debateable what to get. Runnans and IE are usually essential for a marksman, and all things like that, so its hard to incorporate it into your build without missing out on an item you desperately need. Dunno but thats just my take on it.

GeshultzFeb 12, 20174 votes

Because even in the late game taking the Marksmen with the most base hp at 1975 it acts as an extra 15% max health overall (Note MF has highest base hp for Marksmen). In which 1975 *1.15 = 2271.25-1975 = 296.25 more hp against burst vs just getting blood thirstier for pure 350 hp and lifsteal and without the annoyance of death's dance constantly canceling your back. Example of why damage reduction works like % maximum health modifiers. Example target takes 1k damage and has 1150 hp the unit has 150 hp. If again that same unit has death's dance at 1k hp and the target does 1k damage but 15% is converted in DOT over 3 seconds then that unit has 150 hp but still has 50 damage per second dealt from death's dance acting as pseudo extra health.

JustSaiyan69Feb 12, 20174 votes

I never really see challenger adc mains build this item unless theyre playing an ad caster. Even then, it was usually 4th or 5th item, and by that time the game has already been won.

Arya RivenFeb 12, 20174 votes

Because they are building Blood Thirster, Phantom Dancer and Guardian Angel instead.

agbudarFeb 11, 20173 votes

item 3053 i know, i know this should be melee only and then buffed properly but until then you can still buy it

chipndip1Feb 11, 20172 votes

Wrong answer! >=^(

Ariel the CruelFeb 12, 20173 votes

If marksmen are having issues surviving. . .

. . . Why aren't they blaming their supports and tanks?

Oh wait, glass cannons don't need support? They should be naturally hard to kill? Ok, sorry. Never mind.

They get all these options: item 3153 item 3812 item 3814 item 3156 item 3139 item 3071 item 3072 item 3046 But they only ever build: item 3036 item 3142 item 3087 item 3085 item 3031 item 3006 Then they complain about getting "1-shot" be Ahri.

GeshultzFeb 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRxsFZFB,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-12T05:30:17.751+0000)

. . . Why aren't they blaming their supports and tanks?

Oh wait, glass cannons don't need support? They should be naturally hard to kill? Ok, sorry. Never mind.

They get all these options: But they only ever build: Then they complain about getting "1-shot" be Ahri.

Yup and mages get these options: item 3001 item 3157 item 3151 item 3116 item 3027 item 3040 item 3030 item 3152 item 3146

For both classes: item 3102 item 3026

Forgot couple items: item 3053 item 3078

TeCoolMageFeb 12, 20171 votes

hextech gunblade goes in 'for both classes'

ThefrostyvikingFeb 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRxsFZFB,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-12T05:30:17.751+0000)

. . . Why aren't they blaming their supports and tanks?

Oh wait, glass cannons don't need support? They should be naturally hard to kill? Ok, sorry. Never mind.

They get all these options: But they only ever build: Then they complain about getting "1-shot" be Ahri.

I tried upvoting but the truth has hurt too many.

Ariel the CruelFeb 12, 20171 votes

I'm not entirely sure which circle-jerk I pissed off to get these down-votes. The ADC's or the Supports? XD

ThefrostyvikingFeb 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zRxsFZFB,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2017-02-12T18:41:26.802+0000)

I'm not entirely sure which circle-jerk I pissed off to get these down-votes. The ADC's or the Supports? XD

Probably both, we (the ADC's and support players ) usually blame the other in general situations and gloss over our own mistakes if possible.

Now if you excuse me i must go back to cry over the state of Ashe vs assassins.

Awesomedude8888Feb 13, 20171 votes

Maybe if we didn't need 6 damage items to actually do meaningful damage?

Ariel the CruelFeb 13, 20171 votes

All items listed add damage.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 12, 20172 votes

Because then their team bitches at them the second something goes wrong. If a marksman deviates from the most popular build on websites then people will blame them for anything and everything.