I think either people ban him because he was overtuned last patch.
do you still plan to make his heal flat+missing % like you talked about whether or not it was the good formula.
what is yours and other rioter opinion on Darius?
Slamurai Jack24 votesNerf him as much as you want; he won't stop being permabanned until Riot makes something else OP for us to ban. That's how bans have always worked; we ban 1 thing indefinitely until something worse comes along. Notice how all the Sated junglers stopped getting banned when the juggernaughts came out? Sated hadn't been nerfed yet.
5 Stacks GG5 votesthat is so true, that's probably why Riot isn't planning to nerf him again since they know that always happens
I guess we just have to wait for something else to come out.
Im glad he's not getting nerfed :)
Epilogue of Life3 votesI think this is actually healthier overall. I'd rather have one OP outshine another than just a downward spiral where everybody keeps getting nerfed until it takes 5 people to take down a superminion.
RiotMeddler24 votesPersonal feeling is that his current ban rate made sense for 5.17 Darius, but doesn't for 5.18 Darius since he's lost a noticeable amount of power. He might still be ban worthy for some people/some match ups, and might or might not still be too strong, but not 90% ban rate worthy. I'd expect it to take a while for his ban rate to lower though, most people banning him won't be seeing him in game in the first place to observe the changes (super high ban rates limit feedback), so it'll take a while for them to get a read on his revised state.
RiotMeddler15 votesAs far as follow ups go, if we needed to do something flat + % missing, or flat multiplied by % missing on the heal would definitely be one of the things we'd look at. Whether that's the change we'd go for would depend on what the issue was though (no sense nerfing his heal if something else turns out to be an issue for example).
Ramza Paradise23 votesHis heal is the main problem, though.
Doing large amounts of damage + being very tanky + healing for up to 36% missing health is insane. You can't trade with him, and if he gets ahead it's going to take 2-3 people to take him down, and he'll just heal for even more.
Garen has to be out of combat to heal, Renekton's heal is much smaller and capped (but works off minions).
EDIT: Had some ideas that I think could improve the player experience against Darius regarding his heal.
He only heals for missing HP when his passive is active. Not my favorite option since I don't think loading his passive even more is a good idea, but adds to the fantasy that once his passive is up he's a complete juggernaut that needs to be avoided or CC'd accordingly.
Make it heal over 5 seconds. This adds more counterplay for both players, Darius and his opponent. You know he's going to heal, but it won't be right away so you can potentially press your advantage or get punished by him healing up and backing off.
Scrap the heal and change it to a shield based on Q damage (before resists). Shields are infinitely easier to deal with and much less frustrating.
Only Play Darius5 votesNot sure you realize how hard it is to hit 3 people in the Q's sweet spot. If Darius is that deep into the enemy team then he runs severe risk of getting focused and melted before his Q windup even finishes.
Ryot Nomad4 votesThats why his tanky.....He goes in and your team focuses him, you aren't going to instantly burst him so he'll heal off that sliver of hp and be back to 1/3 hp.
You can't run or try to dodge it since the rest of his team will still be piling damage as you retreat from him.
MetalGearTeemu2 votesits not uncommon to apprehend 2-3 people in a teamfight, which sets up an automatic sweetspot unless they have mobility off cooldown.
Darius is practically unkillable if you're running a 3 melee comp.
GelsominoKiller3 votesThe problem i feel with Darius is that his heal offers counterplay in lane, but in not in teamfight: in the messy situations he loves to be in, landing Q on 3 enemies can happen fairly often. Upping the cap to 36% missing health imo ended up as a sort of buff in the scenarios in whose he's already crazy strong.
Moreover, Darius will be always percieved stronger than he is, since he's a strong laner with a best-case -scenario consisting in the enemy team obliterated in dunks.
KitsuneWarriorr3 votes
- Scrap the heal and change it to a shield based on Q damage (before resists). Shields are infinitely easier to deal with and much less frustrating.
THIS This would balance darius I'm telling you! The shield is a rewarding factor if you're mid fight, but won't do anything for short trades where you use it afterwards, it's the perfect change and gives darious a significant weakness to his laning phase, something he so desperately neeeds!
Caenen2 votesI think changing the heal from instant to over time (at least patially, e.g. 50% of it instant + 50% over the course of the next 3 seconds) would relieve a lot of frustation (<- great reason for Darius to be a top-tier Ban) caused by it. However I wonder how that'd behave in action. Needs more than theorycrafting at this point I guess.
5 Stacks GG1 votesdude the 36% heal doesnt happen often, sometimes not even for 3 straight games, dont bring that out like if everytime he press Q he gets it and learn to play around it.
Shonjl2 votesErm, in teamfights he ALWAYS gets it, i have no idea what you are talking about. In a teamfight with 5 targets to choose from, he will almost always get the full heal each time.
5 Stacks GG3 votesfacepalm...
Shonjl1 votesMaybe in your high ranked games it doesn't. But since normals is where like 90% of games are played. its pitifully easy.
MisterLayzee9 votesIf you still need to do more nerfs, how about making the heal be over time rather than be instant? He needs time to soak up to blood of his enemies anyway.
Krys Star4 votesIt's because you made him extremely oppressive again. His heal allows him to harass you for longer periods of time, and he forces you into fight or flight situation. You're forced into this horrible duel with him, that you can either flee to bide your time but give him a large amounts of healing, which in turn hurts you more than it hurts him, or you duel him and pray the massive steroid from his passive doesn't activate.
All that needs to change is the heal. It was too strong then, and now he's being rewarded even more for landing it on three champions. 36% is a hefty amount of healing when you consider the fact most Darius will stack health items and defenses after Black Cleaver. He's terrifying to lane against, and most often he will win his lane, making him terrifying to fight against.
Q - Decimate HEAL PER CHAMPION HIT 15% of missing health ⇒ 12% of missing health MAXIMUM HEAL 30% of missing health ⇒ 36% of missing health COST 30 mana at all ranks ⇒ 30/35/40/45/50 mana
I'm sorry, but he hasn't lost a noticeable amount of power at all, Meddler. All he got was a scaling mana cost to his Q that was very small and hardly noticeable, and then he got 3 measly percent shaved off of his heal per champion hit, while receiving more health incoming for 3 hit. You buffed him more than you did nerf him, although not by a lot, and that's the truth.
Caenen2 votes@Meddler, Statikk or anyone in the Balance team I (a Darius player who's currently in Platinum) consider Darius to have two more items that are actual reasons for him to be concidered overpowered, but don't shine through as much in the discussion.
The first thing is the current base damage on Decimate. After the hotfix buff, Darius' short trades have become way more potent (...again) and are actually an easy way of bullying most opponents out of lane, especially if those rely on long trades themeselves, in which Darius stomps them even more. His dominance in short trades makes him an ideal lane bully again, even without the use of Bloodrage and his amplified 175 attack range(and this IS worth noting!), and that's too much for a character who brings so much raw mid-game power now.
The second thing I noticed is how much damage the passive does in Bloodrage currently. It doesn't feel skillful to see half of their ADC's HP to simply bleed away after you hit your Decimate but lost reach. In early lane, when your enemy is foolish enough to let you proc Bloodrage, it's not all that extreme, but still, it has lead to a lot of "First Blood"s for me due to my opponent underestimating not only my bonus ad (that part's fine), but also the damage he suffers per second. Currently the ratio of 5 stacks (->Bloodrage, solid bonus AD) is 150% bonus ad over 5 seconds (30% per second EDIT: oops, only triggers 4 times in intervals of 1.25 seconds after the rework -> 37,5% per tick). Combined with the armor reduction from Black Cleaver and some flat armPen from any source, the bleeding frequently deals up to 600 damage as a DoT debuff in the later game. As said, painful to watch, even for me, the Darius player.
I'm not all to sure about the healing on a 3 sec CD with max CDR (even though the heal itself should be really here to stay, you can outplay Darius, playing around Decimates functionality), but cutting the damage buff of the hotfix in half (30/50/70/110/130 from 40/70/100/130/160) and reducing the ratio on Bloodrage'd Hemorrhage (say 120% from 150% total, 24% from 30% per second 30% from 37,5% per tick) would remove some unnecessary strenghts he has, which are leading to really easy bullying in lane and too much colateral damage in team fights (while effectively applying an armor reduction debuff aswell with Black Cleaver, making your ADC die of laughter).
Another reason for the peviously immobile champions to rise is Dead Man's Plate's insane MS-steroid (It's basically a better version of mobility boots, as the MS does not fall off completely when simply taking damage or getting hit by anything). But I don't think it's this discussion's purpose to treat that.
[And I apologize for any errors of language, I'm not a native speaker]
What do you think of these suggestions?
Ultîma1 votesI would also like to add, while the counterplay to Darius' heal (stay clear of the outer ring of his ability) is fine during laning, it's impossible to execute reliably during a teamfight, so Darius ends up being invincible due to his healing.
Then comes the question of theme; why does Darius even have a burst heal in the first place? Darius is characterized by his identity as a bleed-tank with the ability to nuke for true damage. Sustain for days is something best left to Mundo or Aatrox; it has honestly little to do with Darius and he's now OP because of it.
Shonjl2 votesBasically this. I see no reason he even has a heal. That in itself would be enough to balance him. Let him keep his power right now. He can still be poked down which is meant to be his weakness. He sacrifaces sustain(At least til Tiamat or Hydra) for raw damage. Since most other champs do the opposite, they give up damage for sustain.
No reason he should have damage, tankiness and sustain together. Cut the heal away and he is fine. Still a pain but in a good way. I would rather fight a Darius that is tanky as hell and hits like 10 trucks but can die then one that can do all that and just casually Q for a third of his health back
Taigongwang3 votesAs a Darius Player, I'm gonna tell you straight up one of the things that helps push him into that permaban status. With his W losing ALL of its actual scaling, he has no reason to put skill points into it. This means he is putting skill points into Apprehend, which is giving him % Ar Pen. Its an old LATE game power spike of his that he had, but he is now getting early-mid game. Bruisers top against him need obscene amounts of armor to start mitigating his damage, as well as health. If they build those defenses on the other hand, most Fighters and Bruisers just dont have the offense to match him in trades. This creates a laning situation where his opponent has no right item build choice. When he comes out of laning phase with 25% Ar pen on top of his high base damage, he can become that walking murder train people fear easily. Put the % Ar Pen passive on his ult and put something else on his W or E, then see how it goes. A lot of his mid game power right now comes from that Apprehend passive.
rG Thundrag13 votesIf darius is still somehow a major problem It'd be best to move away from the % missing hp model and change the heal to a far lower % max hp heal of like 6-7% max of 18-21%
It'd have the benefit of being the same value all the time so you know how much darius can heal when fighting him and it'd be more useful at higher health
Only Play Darius7 votesThe reason it's %missing is so that he gets rewarded for taking a risk trying to get close enough to hit the sweet spot when he's close to death.
If you changed it to %max all he would do is thoughtlessly click it in lane every time it came off cooldown and you wouldn't be able to shove him out or out sustain him. There's a reason most heals in the game have low base value and get boosted by a percentage amount based on %missing HP on the target.
Joquan2 votesAgreed.
Dreadlocks8 votesWhy does Darius even have a heal?
rG Thundrag7 votesWhy does Darius even have a heal?
Because darius doesn't have any defensive boosts to let him actually survive in fights like all the other tanky frontliners
Dreadlocks7 votesAnd most other tanky front liners dont deal a shit load of damage..
Shadow Gilgamesh5 votesThe other juggernauts most certainly do
Dreadlocks3 votesAnd never did i agree to them being balanced.. All have a 63% + ban rate.. thats absurd.
Slamurai Jack8 votesYou and I both know that ban rates barely correlate with actual balance. People ban what they're afraid of, not what is good.
Dreadlocks4 votesand plat + is afraid of these champions... even challenger games are banning them. I never thought id see Darius as a threat in high lvl of play.
Also riot doesnt like it when champions are Pick/Ban.
rG Thundrag5 votesand plat + is afraid of these champions... even challenger games are banning them. I never thought id see Darius as a threat in high lvl of play.
Also riot doesnt like it when champions are Pick/Ban.
Darius winrate has dropped a lot to a balanced 50-51% Garen's is higher btw since his 5.18 nerfs The thing is people just ban things that are being already banned its a snowball effect. Theres 4 other much stronger bans like fiora/morde/gangplank/skarner even then some of these are questionable bans when things like vayne/ahri/lux/soraka are rampaging all over soloque
People still ban garen even though he does less damage than pre-juggernaut garen until 16 if enemies are not isolated, has less ms, weaker MS boost and shorter duration on the boost and silence, w is weaker mid/late game and a situational debuff that is out of your control where it makes 4/5 of the enemy team are playing against a nerfed Garen and another is playing vs a terror.
Shonjl1 votesGaren being the most spoken abotu Juggy besides Darius also lost a fk ton of tankiness and damage til late game just for his 2nd passive which ohh no, one person on the enemy team can be killed easy. OVerall Garen was nerfed with Juggy.
Darius on the other hand has been buffed with literally no nerf. People cry his Q got a delay was huge, it did nothing at all people need to stop using it as an excuse. So what does Riot do? Nerf him which actually turned out to be a buff to him since now he heals even more in teamfights.
Garen is meant to be the sustain juggy, Darius is meant to be the brute force one, Skarner doesn't exist anymore and Morde is well...adc fodder. Darius should simply have his heal removed. All he would have to do is buy Hydra again for sustain which he more than was fine with before.
Shadow Gilgamesh1 votesSeems like for the most part what you've said doesn't match the reality of the situation that unfolded.
Post juggernaut Garen did not get weaker, his winrate went up and his ban rate was at 60%+.
Immediately post rework Darius was the one who had been nerfed, while all the other juggernauts were all at 55% or more winrate, he was at like... 40-45%. Riot then pulled their (in)famous hotfix patch and roided him out. There's nothing in his kit, heal included, that makes him a champ where he HAS to be too weak or too strong (like champs like 
frequently seem to be). It's just a matter of them finding the correct numbers on things, probably returning his heal to 10% per champ, max 30%, since it was really his damage that was the problem on release.
IF they removed his Q heal then applying max bleed and having a nice short AD boost when someone gets max bleed will be all he gets for the changes to his kit that made him weaker, Q delay, E's bug got fixed, tanked his AS growth, bleed is now physical, W is a short slow instead of a long one, ult more reliant on bleed stacks, and whatever else, which would absolutely make him a dumpster champ, 12% lifesteal on an item he'd be forced to rush instead of the items he needs to not be kited by every champ with so much as a movespeed boost (
and 
) wouldn't save him at all.
Shonjl1 votesThen explain to me how Garen DIDNT get weaker. I don't have the link on hand since I am lazy. But what basically happened was they totally gutted his W from being a flat % to something you have to farm some minions for and even then its a very small amount compared to what it used to be. That itself was a huge loss to his tankiness. They removed some of his speed, something like 30% to 20% from his Q and made his silence a flat 1.5 seconds when it could go up to 2.5. Nerf. His E was changed so it did more ticks of damage the higher level he gets, but also had a lower base damage. So in reality it was a damage nerf in damage as well as ticks til he is 16 when it actually does more than old Garen. That is more an early to mid game nerf and late game buff.
Villian is the only thing that was added that was a flat buff. And to be honest. It really isn't as fancy as people make it. I am a Garen main and unless the Villian is literally in my face, I rarely bother them short of in teamfights and its within reason. I am not going to go out of my way down to bot lane to kill them unless it is a play worth doing like if there is several enemies down there and its a fight we coudl possibly win. If it is on the ADC in teamfights sure, I will get them, but its fairly easy to stop me since it comes down to mindgames. If I wait to use my Q after they waste all their CC, they are dead, if someone or the ADC is smart and waits for me to use it then hit me, I won't get to them and could die or be forced to retreat.
Overall all they did is make his lategame damage more relevant. But at least to me, Garen wasn't meant to be some serious damage dealer, he was meant to be that godly tank that annoyed the shit out of you as he slowly took you down that could escape with ease and come back shortly after with most his hp back. And you saw how that was?
Only Play Darius2 votesBecause his old kit was gimped in that he lacked many of the things champions needed to be competitively viable and therefore had to be overcompensated in other areas just to be remotely usable against competent players.
He's short range, completely immobile, and lacks any form of healing or defensive steroids. Therefore, he had to have insane base stats and obnoxious amounts of damage in his kit (which consisted of nothing but damage, another problem of his) which is what made him so toxic to lane against.
Giving him a heal makes him much easier to balance. He can be more versatile in his role/playstyle and by having another tool in his kit he can be more powerful/useful overall without being exceedingly binary.
FooDang7 votesHe's almost 97% pick or ban on lolking. Draven is probably jelly.
Meep Man4 votesI got to agree with Meddler on this one. I dont see why people are still banning him THIS much. I mean, try banning the people you guys actually complain about on the forums.
"Vayne is so OP, cant deal with" Ban her. "Thresh is overloaded." Ban. "I personally cant handle Tahm Kench." Ok? Ban him. "Blitz is..." BAN!
MetalGearTeemu1 votespeople are banning him this much because he makes any melee top lane unwinnable, and forces your jungler to basically duo lane to keep your top laner from being torn into small chunks and zoned out of farming range.
this is exactly what pants was going on about on the PtR when he asked riot not to release darius kit as it was.
This is exactly what people ( myself included ) were saying when we said "Ignore Garen, Darius is what you need to be concerned about".
and lookiloo. its all come home to roost now.
5 Stacks GG3 votesFiora irelia olaf jax yi riven all beat darius btw.
want to know the champion that beats all melee for real? riven.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesnone of these matchups are out of favor for Darius.
Riven loses lane miserably to both Darius and Garen.
The fun part is Darius bullies her from 1. So its even worse then the Garen matchup rivens already cry about.
5 Stacks GG1 votesgaren darius does not win the match by favor, riven has EVERYTHING to counter both of them
MetalGearTeemu1 votesThe history of Rivens complaining about the Garen matchup, as well as the counterpick websites listing both Garen and Darius as counterlanes for her by a pretty wide margin would suggest that you are incorrect in your assessment.
5 Stacks GG2 votesriven player tend to cry about pretty much anything, Garen and Darius both USED to have some tools to deal with her and that was enough for riven player to scream out loud COUNTER when riven has more tools to deal with them than they have dealing with her.
and now with the rework Garen lost his silence duration and E does less dmg early on. Darius Q now is so easy to dodge esp if you are riven and his hook can easily be invaded. riven has all the tools to deal with them.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesGarens silence duration in lane is unnerfed, its the scaling which was nerfed.
Garen played defensively in lane until he bullied her at 4, nothing about garens play mechanics vs riven have changed in lane, this argument is a statement of ignorance on your end.
Darius has better tools for riven now then before. With two powerful slowing methods his ability to lay around her mobility is improved.
You'd think that his Q is nerfed in this matchup compared to previously, until you play the lane and come to understand that Rivens Q knockback/up on 3rd wings actually sets up a free sweetspot in most cases, and its a pretty simple matter for Darius to punish her usage of the 3rd jump.
Darius's effectiveness on counterpick sites vs riven is actually up since his rework. You're simply incorrect here. 
5 Stacks GG1 votesstay delusional then.
Garen E does LESS dmg than pre rework until lvl 16, garen.
Darius LOST the ability to grab her after she dash away with his pull and she has FOUR dashes she can use to dodge his Q.
If you lost to Darius has riven it's on you stop putting the blame elsewhere, oh and also you should stop believing what stupid sites says about counters, those kind of sites says Teemo counter Darius for ages while it's not even close to be remotely true.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesand she has FOUR dashes she can use to dodge his Q.
This is how I know you didn't read.
Go back, read the post, concentrate, and try again.
5 Stacks GG1 votesthats not Darius countering riven, thats riven wasting her cd and getting punished for it, there is 0 reason riven should lose to darius other than she fucked up.