I imagine 1 million Sona mains would hate the sound of it, but...

chipndip1·Jun 19, 2016·12 votes·2,714 views

...if Q was a skill shot, we could probably resolve most, if not all, of the champ's issues, in all honesty.

77 Comments

67chromeJun 20, 201612 votes

if Q was a skill shot, we could probably resolve most, if not all, of the champ's issues, in all honesty.

Unlikely.

Skillshots are not inherently worse than point-click skills.

Pretty much every skillshot has greater maximum range than point-click, which offers a ton of power. Skillshots can also strike targets in fog of war, brush, and stealth. Which is pretty useful bot-lane with all that brush. Also pretty useful to scout tri-brush and river before warding.

Considering no target is needed, skillshots with the same range as point-click skills effectivly have more range when you're running away from a foe as well, as a 600 range skillshot launched towards a target with 600 movement speed will strike a target you'd need 1200 range to hit with a point-click skill.

More importantly with Sona:

one of the biggest issues with healing supports is how passive and boring they can make a lane for their opponents. After every small trade a heal comes out, preventing any chip damage from sticking at all. The only engagements worth making are all-in attempts, which are really risky if you're chipped down to 50%.

Sona's Valor being a skill shot means better range on the skill, allowing her to do Lux things by poking opponents down from range with a kit that allows for healing allies, which would cause more problems with Sona's play-style in regards to dynamic gameplay.

At least with Valor's current medium range Sona still needs to get within AA striking distance of most marksman, putting herself in fairly perilous situations to harass that allow her opponents more dynamic ways to deal with Sona rather than needing 2 gap-closers to reach the far back line to do anything to her.

chipndip1Jun 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Unlikely.

Skillshots are not inherently worse than point-click skills.

Pretty much every skillshot has greater maximum range than point-click, which offers a ton of power. Skillshots can also strike targets in fog of war, brush, and stealth. Which is pretty useful bot-lane with all that brush. Also pretty useful to scout tri-brush and river before warding.

Considering no target is needed, skillshots with the same range as point-click skills effectivly have more range when you're running away from a foe as well, as a 600 range skillshot launched towards a target with 600 movement speed will strike a target you'd need 1200 range to hit with a point-click skill.

More importantly with Sona:

one of the biggest issues with healing supports is how passive and boring they can make a lane for their opponents. After every small trade a heal comes out, preventing any chip damage from sticking at all. The only engagements worth making are all-in attempts, which are really risky if you're chipped down to 50%.

Her W is more of a shield than it is a heal. Especially if the changes go through. Sona doesn't exactly "heal all the damage off".

Sona's Valor being a skill shot means better range on the skill, allowing her to do Lux things by poking opponents down from range with a kit that allows for healing allies, which would cause more problems with Sona's play-style in regards to dynamic gameplay.

I mean, Nidalee can heal allies, can't she? She still gets a skill shot.

Besides, just because you have a skill shot doesn't mean you have to have Lux's range. The issue with Sona now is that, in order to harass (since she has no hard-cc to be useful for, so harass is her main ticket to laning instead), she has to be within range of basically anyone's gap-closing skill. Not exactly a smart balancing decision either, seeing how she's still as squishy as she was when she was expected to just float around behind 4 thugs.

At least with Valor's current medium range Sona still needs to get within AA striking distance of most marksman, putting herself in fairly perilous situations to harass that allow her opponents more dynamic ways to deal with Sona rather than needing 2 gap-closers to reach the far back line to do anything to her.

Yea, but that puts her at a major disadvantage in comparison to most other supports comparable to her in the fact that it's too damn easy to coordinate and kill her. This is a competitive team game, right? So when her opponents have aggressive hard-cc tools that all exceed her trading range of 550 (because, let's be honest, the active of Q is usually negligible without the AA), this makes too many negative match-ups for Sona, because getting in 550 range means she's in straight "Gonna die" range.

101100111000Jun 20, 20167 votes

Just because Nid has a heal doesn't mean she's designed to support, as you can tell by looking at the rest of her kit.

Sona has never healed a lot of damage, but it used to be more significant than the garbage it is now.

And I seriously hate how you're arguing for increasing the range of a damage ability by making it a skillshot when that would just aggravate the problem of Sona being a passive poke-bot. You don't solve any underlying design issues by INCREASING the range of her only basic damaging ability when the rework (which is garbage) was pushed out to promote "active play".

chipndip1Jun 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Just because Nid has a heal doesn't mean she's designed to support, as you can tell by looking at the rest of her kit.

Only point is that people that can heal can also have a skill shot. Just because you can heal doesn't mean you can't have one. Even Soraka's Q is a skill shot of some kind.

Sona has never healed a lot of damage, but it used to be more significant than the garbage it is now.

I mean, this is besides the point? The thread is focused on Q.

And I seriously hate how you're arguing for increasing the range of a damage ability by making it a skillshot when that would just aggravate the problem of Sona being a passive poke-bot. You don't solve any underlying design issues by INCREASING the range of her only basic damaging ability when the rework (which is garbage) was pushed out to promote "active play".

I mean, Karma has a long-ranged Q. Janna and Soraka are usually positioned moderately out of reach for most of the laning process and during team fights. Even Morgana's got huge range on her Q. Just because Sona should die when she's caught doesn't mean it should be easier to catch her than anyone else even moderately comparable to her, otherwise the payout for not getting caught would have to be bigger...which it's not.

101100111000Jun 20, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Only point is that people that can heal can also have a skill shot. Just because you can heal doesn't mean you can't have one. Even Soraka's Q is a skill shot of some kind.

Just because they CAN have a skillshot doesn't mean they should. Kayle and Alistar also heal allies, should they get skillshots in their kit too?

I mean, this is besides the point? The thread is focused on Q.

You're the one that argued the point that Sona's heal was more of a shield to begin with, which is only because of the shity rework. It may be beside the OP's point, but it was obviously somehow relevant to your argument.

I mean, Karma has a long-ranged Q. Janna and Soraka are usually positioned moderately out of reach for most of the laning process and during team fights. Even Morgana's got huge range on her Q. Just because Sona should die when she's caught doesn't mean it should be easier to catch her than anyone else even moderately comparable to her, otherwise the payout for not getting caught would have to be bigger...which it's not.

Sona's effective Q cast range is only 100 shorter than Karma's and can't be bodied by minions. The only thing up on Sona that Karma has in Qs is her Mantra, which is something else entirely. Not to mention Karma has her own identity problems that weaken the discussion; both Sona and Karma have huge identity discrepancies that makes comparing them like comparing a beat-up Charger to a beat-up Honda.

Janna positions out of reach because she "identifies" as the "peel champion", a champion that exists to make it incomprehensibly annoying to get close to anyone to begin with. If Janna was close-range, there would be a conflict at a fundamental level. Not to mention Janna's Q skillshot is slow as shit and requires extremely good use to actually land, or a mistake on the enemy's part, and is used more in zoning than anything else.

Soraka's a heal bot. She doesn't have a poke identity like Sona.

Morgana, I'm fairly certain, is a mage, what with the 2 sources of CC, a CC-immunity shield, and a dot AoE. Her kit can be used to support, but at that point so can Annie, and you're obviously not bringing her into the conversation.

If ANY support champion is in range to auto, they're likely in range to be counter-harassed. Sona's not the only one subject to this.

chipndip1Jun 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Just because they CAN have a skillshot doesn't mean they should. Kayle and Alistar also heal allies, should they get skillshots in their kit too?

Alistar technically counts since his ground slam isn't auto-targeted if we're really splitting hairs here.

Besides, the difference is that Sona relies on poke to function at all. Why is she poking within the range of enemy retaliation 24/7 when it's so easy to kill her? You're making these hollow arguments about people that don't have skill shots when they don't die as easily. I mean, I guess Kayle is a slightly different story, but I'm not giving Kayle's design 2 thumbs up either.

You're the one that argued the point that Sona's heal was more of a shield to begin with, which is only because of the shity rework. It may be beside the OP's point, but it was obviously somehow relevant to your argument.

And you were the one saying that her heal is apparently extra strong. It's not the heal more than it's her heal being padded by the shield. She doesn't patch damage. She actively has to block it. That's naturally different from the likes of Nami and Soraka, who simply patch a good deal of your damage up over X amount of time.

Sona's effective Q cast range is only 100 shorter than Karma's and can't be bodied by minions. The only thing up on Sona that Karma has in Qs is her Mantra, which is something else entirely. Not to mention Karma has her own identity problems that weaken the discussion; both Sona and Karma have huge identity discrepancies that makes comparing them like comparing a beat-up Charger to a beat-up Honda.

Her bolts aren't the point of the Q. The auto is. Riot's looking to hammer that point home with their current plans for her. Her effective range for fighting is her auto range, not her automatic Q bolt range. This is obvious info.

Janna positions out of reach because she "identifies" as the "peel champion", a champion that exists to make it incomprehensibly annoying to get close to anyone to begin with. If Janna was close-range, there would be a conflict at a fundamental level. Not to mention Janna's Q skillshot is slow as shit and requires extremely good use to actually land, or a mistake on the enemy's part, and is used more in zoning than anything else.

Soraka's a heal bot. She doesn't have a poke identity like Sona.

Morgana, I'm fairly certain, is a mage, what with the 2 sources of CC, a CC-immunity shield, and a dot AoE. Her kit can be used to support, but at that point so can Annie, and you're obviously not bringing her into the conversation.

If ANY support champion is in range to auto, they're likely in range to be counter-harassed. Sona's not the only one subject to this.

Except NO SUPPORT CHAMPION IS EXPECTED TO USE AUTOS TO FUNCTION LIKE SONA IS. Literally how is this not adding up?

101100111000Jun 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Alistar technically counts since his ground slam isn't auto-targeted if we're really splitting hairs here.

It also isn't ground-targeted, so it isn't a skillshot, "if we're really splitting hairs here". It's an auto-targeted AoE centered around the character.

Besides, the difference is that Sona relies on poke to function at all. Why is she poking within the range of enemy retaliation 24/7 when it's so easy to kill her? You're making these hollow arguments about people that don't have skill shots when they don't die as easily. I mean, I guess Kayle is a slightly different story, but I'm not giving Kayle's design 2 thumbs up either.

I will elaborate on this further down my response.

And you were the one saying that her heal is apparently extra strong. It's not the heal more than it's her heal being padded by the shield. She doesn't patch damage. She actively has to block it. That's naturally different from the likes of Nami and Soraka, who simply patch a good deal of your damage up over X amount of time.

I never said her heal was strong, I said it used to be better. The rework cut her healing potential and gave her a shield instead. She used to be about passively patching damage and Q-poking without autos, only going in to auto on easily favorable trades.

Nami is obviously just a better version of Sona anyway.

Her bolts aren't the point of the Q. The auto is. Riot's looking to hammer that point home with their current plans for her. Her effective range for fighting is her auto range, not her automatic Q bolt range. This is obvious info.

And you obviously ignore my argument that Sona is just left in a poor design state since her re-work BECAUSE of the change in playstyle that was forced on her? The only thing Sona is good for in the grand scheme of any game is flash-ult. She softly counters passive laners and gets shat on by anything with a semblance of engage and a competent enemy support.

Except NO SUPPORT CHAMPION IS EXPECTED TO USE AUTOS TO FUNCTION LIKE SONA IS. Literally how is this not adding up?

Because I argue the design philosophy behind her rework was flawed to begin with. I'm not arguing her design is any good, I already stated so, especially with regards to comparison to Karma earlier. Your desire to change her Q into some sort of skillshot solves none of her gameplay issues because changing an ability from being auto-targeted to skillshot does not detract from the underlying problems at the core of the champion.

In fact, if you did that, you'd just make her MORE similar to Karma and force the issue of supports rotating between the two when one was better than the other. Which solves nothing.

BakedLotionJun 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Considering no target is needed, skillshots with the same range as point-click skills effectivly have more range when you're running away from a foe as well, as a 600 range skillshot launched towards a target with 600 movement speed will strike a target you'd need 1200 range to hit with a point-click skill.

can u explain this part? i dun geddit

67chromeJun 20, 20162 votes

When you fire a point-click skill with 600 range (or something like Sona's Valor), your target needs to be within 600 range of you when you cast the skill.

However: if an opponent is running at you with an MS of 600 (or 600 distance covered per second), and you fire a skillshot with 600 range towards their direction with a missile speed of 600 (or 1 second to hit max range), you can be up to 1200 range away from an opponent running at you, launch the skill, and then they'll run into it.

This allows skillshot to be waaay more useful on champions that want to maintain distance and kite opponents to death than skillshots.

Hope that makes more sense.

Miku Hime samaJun 24, 20161 votes

You're leaving 1 factor out of the equation, which is missile speed. If a skillshot has 600 range and 1200 missile speed, it reaches maximum distance after 0.5 seconds. An enemy champion with 600 MS can walk 300 units in that same .5 seconds, thus the range while running away is actually 900 units, which still supports the logic you're presenting.

Itadaki SeiekiJun 19, 20168 votes

It wouldn't resolve any problem. It'd make her worse.

The reason why? She's SUPPOSE to poke. Her Q alone does little damage, it's the follow up Power Chord that makes her a threat early on. If it was a skillshot, do you realize how bad her laning will be? She's already the squishest support ( lowest armor and HP I believe,) Making the only thing she's good at a skillshot is making her worse in all the wrong ways.

NekusenJun 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bard to Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-06-19T20:25:23.689+0000)

It wouldn't resolve any problem. It'd make her worse.

The reason why? She's SUPPOSE to poke.

a lot of supports are supposed to poke and are skillshot based, like lulu, zilean, soraka, blitzcrank (though he is still cancer), braum, lux, morgana, etc. (you get the idea)

If it was a skillshot, do you realize how bad her laning will be?

if only she had insane utility like aoe heals, aoe speedups, aoe shields, aoe stun, etc., o well... and it wouldn't be bad, she would at least require some skill.

RatbertJun 20, 20163 votes

Blitz isn't a poke champ. Lulu has a targeted to help her poke, and all others but braum have huge aoes to make up for it being a skill shot.

Yeah she might have insane utility, but then you realize her numbers make all her skills start at 75% strength in lane. If only you could realize that zoning should exist.

NekusenJun 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Lulu has a targeted to help her poke

her E damage is very low and no lulu main would waste mana on it for poke, Q is her poke

and all others but braum have huge aoes to make up for it being a skill shot.

and sona has aoe heals, aoe speedups, aoe shields, aoe stun while her poke isn't even targeted, its much worse than that, she doesn't even need to target and it will hit 2 targets.

Yeah she might have insane utility, but then you realize her numbers make all her skills start at 75% strength in lane.

what? no champion starts with all of his abilities at max level.

If only you could realize that zoning should exist.

it shouldn't be free and less when coupled with insane sustain and utility.

RatbertJun 20, 20163 votes

Lulu's e is only low if you don't max it. I mean it's not impossibly bad to max e first, cause it's your shield too but i suppose most people max q.

It'll only hit two in teamfights, or if your lane partners are already fighting you. Aoe or not, her numbers are trash in lane. Nami has 3 out of 4 of those at level 2. Sona has to hit 6 first.

I meant 75% of a level 1 skill. Most of sona's power is gated behind her aura, which will only proc on two people in lane max.

It's not free, as mana is actually a thing for supports. Her sustain is also pretty trash unless you get the shield off too.

NekusenJun 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lulu's e is only low if you don't max it. I mean it's not impossibly bad to max e first, cause it's your shield too but i suppose most people max q.

no one in their right mind would max E first

Aoe or not, her numbers are trash in lane.

no they are not, depending on runes and enemy a single poke can take half the enemy's hp

Nami has 3 out of 4 of those at level 2. Sona has to hit 6 first.

nami 's heal is not aoe, doesn't have a shield and her only aoe speedup comes with her ult. her bubble is a skillshot and extremely easy to dodge.

I meant 75% of a level 1 skill. Most of sona's power is gated behind her aura, which will only proc on two people in lane max.

why would that be "75%" vs any other champ at lvl 1? 2 people in lane is all you need as you have 2 enemies on your lane.

It's not free, as mana is actually a thing for supports. Her sustain is also pretty trash unless you get the shield off too.

free as "doesn't require skill" her sustain is very high, at least be honest about that.

A Wild AP SonaJun 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

no one in their right mind would max E first

no they are not, depending on runes and enemy a single poke can take half the enemy's hp

nami 's heal is not aoe, doesn't have a shield and her only aoe speedup comes with her ult. her bubble is a skillshot and extremely easy to dodge.

why would that be "75%" vs any other champ at lvl 1? 2 people in lane is all you need as you have 2 enemies on your lane.

free as "doesn't require skill" her sustain is very high, at least be honest about that.

sona does not have sustain because anyone with a relic shield can out heal her she requires 400 mana to heal for 150 hp

you clearly have never played sona in your life

if sona is a sustain support then so is teemo with a relic shield and all other 100+ champs on this game that can buy a relic shield

ps: sona is not easy because if she were such an easy support than more than 3-4 people in ALL OF NA could actually play her in high elo without power feeding

that shows she is extremely difficult to master once people know how to actually play and has infinite levels of counterplay

get good then you can stop complaining about a sub 50% win rate champ

NekusenJun 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T22:31:58.323+0000)

she requires 400 mana to heal for 150 hp

assuming 5 heals at lvl 1 with 0 AP, BUT you seem to be ignoring the healing power increases with missing HP, with a maximum of 50% extra HP +10% from windspeaker + windspeaker resistances + 15% from completed item 3114 items (when you get them)

if you have to heal 5 times at level 1, then you are probably doing something wrong. also you have to add the extra shield you get when healing which more than doubles the total.

sona does not have sustain because anyone with a relic shield can out heal her

no relic shield champ can heal 5 times at lvl 1 (plus bonus shield), and when they do, they will get some poke

you clearly have never played sona in your life

oh, yes i have, i've played every support there is.

if sona is a sustain support then so is teemo with a relic shield

2 error with that 1- teemo is not a support 2- relic shield doesn't proc on ranged attacks

that shows she is extremely difficult to master once people know how to actually play and has infinite levels of counterplay

of course, the champ you use is always the "harder" to use, because you use it, and of course, you are obviously the best player there is.

get good then you can stop complaining about a sub 50% win rate champ

winrates mean nothing (at least not by themselves) for so many reasons i got tires of repeating, even riot made a post about it that you can go and check out.

A Wild AP SonaJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

assuming 5 heals at lvl 1 with 0 AP, BUT you seem to be ignoring the healing power increases with missing HP, with a maximum of 50% extra HP +10% from windspeaker + windspeaker resistances + 15% from completed items (when you get them)

if you have to heal 5 times at level 1, then you are probably doing something wrong. also you have to add the extra shield you get when healing which more than doubles the total.

no relic shield champ can heal 5 times at lvl 1 (plus bonus shield), and when they do, they will get some poke

oh, yes i have, i've played every support there is.

2 error with that 1- teemo is not a support 2- relic shield doesn't proc on ranged attacks

of course, the champ you use is always the "harder" to use, because you use it, and of course, you are obviously the best player there is.

winrates mean nothing (at least not by themselves) for so many reasons i got tires of repeating, even riot made a post about it that you can go and check out.

building cheerleader on sona is trash when you can build ap and heal for 300-400 hp per heal end game sustain does nothing to win burst lanes (any of sonas counters)

also anyone that starts w on sona instead of q for harass should uninstall league

some matchups like thresh/vayne/leona etc are literally decided at level 1 based on how much damage you can put on their adc before 2 becuase even if their support is 80-90% they cant mindlessly engage with a 40-50% hp adc

and in the case of vayne it decides the entire lane until she gets a gank

RatbertJun 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

no one in their right mind would max E first

no they are not, depending on runes and enemy a single poke can take half the enemy's hp

nami 's heal is not aoe, doesn't have a shield and her only aoe speedup comes with her ult. her bubble is a skillshot and extremely easy to dodge.

why would that be "75%" vs any other champ at lvl 1? 2 people in lane is all you need as you have 2 enemies on your lane.

free as "doesn't require skill" her sustain is very high, at least be honest about that.

So uh, you've now demonstrated you don't play sona, lulu or nami. Yippe skippe how surprising.

Sona's auras are like half her skill's power. She can't use all of it. Therefore ~75%.

Positioning, mana and timing are all skills. Her sustain is piss poor. Anyone with relic shield already beats her with her bottom tier numbers.

NekusenJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So uh, you've now demonstrated you don't play sona, lulu or nami.

yep i do :D, that shows your ability to read people is as big as your knowledge of of those champs.

Sona's auras are like half her skill's power. She can't use all of it. Therefore ~75%.

no champion can use all its skill at level 1.

Positioning, mana and timing are all skills.

"skill", all champions except maleness have all those.

Her sustain is piss poor.

except... you know... it's not.

RatbertJun 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

yep i do :D, that shows your ability to read people is as big as your knowledge of of those champs.

no champion can use all its skill at level 1.

"skill", all champions except maleness have all those.

except... you know... it's not.

Alrighty then. Lulu can viably max e, as it doubles as her sustain and targeted poke. Maybe not after the changes, but certainly now. Nami has aoe heals, speed up and stun. All her spells speed up, and her heal can easily heal twice. Sona will never deal half hp damage again, thanks to consecutive damage nerfs. If you actually played any of these champs, you'd know this (especially nami). Clearly you did not know, so clearly you don't play them.

Except most can, because very few rely on the presence of multiple champions and balanced around tagging 4.

Oh yeah except sona's a squishy, short range immobile who's getting her only movement removed for range. In comparison to like lb, positioning is actually hard.

Except a 30 on each person heal that scales to 45 is super shit for 80 mana and is only ever used when sona has literally nothing else to do, or is currently in a fight.

NekusenJun 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Alrighty then. Lulu can viably max e

you can "viably" max W if you want, maxing Q is the best, you max E if you are an idiot who can't land a skillshot

Nami has aoe heals

no she doesn't

and stun.

which anyone with a brain can dodge

and her heal can easily heal twice.

not the same target, still inferior to aoe.

Sona will never deal half hp damage again, thanks to consecutive damage nerfs.

been doing so after the last time she was changed

If you actually played any of these champs

which i do

you'd know this (especially nami).

what about her ?

RatbertJun 22, 20163 votes

Or you know, you need a shield or damage.

Yes she does, if sona has one by healing two people, nami has one because hers can heal two people.

Anyone can dodge sona's ult too.

Sona's heal can't heal the same target so why do you consider it aoe? Are you trolling me?

With what, 100 ap in lane while being 3 levels ahead? Even at rank 3, 270+100% ap will never deal half hp unless they're level 1.

Yuzuki YukarinJun 20, 20167 votes

I seriously doubt it. Rito and especially Meddler himself has personally made it clear that they don't want Sona to be a viable character outside of low bronze. They aren't looking at ways to fix her or free up "power budget" because the truth of the matter is she already has the largest unspent budget of any character in this game.

Changing an auto-targeting skill into a skillshot wouldn't manage the goal you're seeking regardless. Despite her singular damage spell being less reliable than single-target skills, it still has the lowest base damage of the entire support class as a whole. Matter of fact, many single-target support spells not only have equal or higher range than Hymn, but double its damage and scaling to boot.

You're attempting to fix a broken axle by changing the wheel. Hymn of Valor doesn't need to be a skillshot, it needs to not be the weakest damage spell in the entire support class.

chipndip1Jun 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuzuki Yukarin,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-06-20T00:17:38.946+0000)

I seriously doubt it. Rito and especially Meddler himself has personally made it clear that they don't want Sona to be a viable character outside of low bronze. They aren't looking at ways to fix her or free up "power budget" because the truth of the matter is she already has the largest unspent budget of any character in this game.

Changing an auto-targeting skill into a skillshot wouldn't manage the goal you're seeking regardless. Despite her singular damage spell being less reliable than single-target skills, it still has the lowest base damage of the entire support class as a whole. Matter of fact, many single-target support spells not only have equal or higher range than Hymn, but double its damage and scaling to boot.

You're attempting to fix a broken axle by changing the wheel. Hymn of Valor doesn't need to be a skillshot, it needs to not be the weakest damage spell in the entire support class.

You're looking at the issue as if changing her Q into a skill shot would be the ONLY thing that should change.

If her Q is a skillshot, that frees up a lot of the complexity about giving her power vs. the simplicity of its implementation. As she is now, you can't make her Q stronger because it's too simple to use, and thus there's no playing around it. If there's a margin of error, it can be stronger in and of itself. Also, she could fight from longer ranges instead of being within the gap closing distance of literally everyone.

Instead of saying it'd solve all her issues, let's say it'd open the pathway to finally fixing them.

Yuzuki YukarinJun 20, 20164 votes

Except Hymn of Valor isn't nearly as "simple to use" as you're claiming. On the contrary, it's a very misleadingly complex spell. First and foremost you have to have its ranges memorized, much the same as a skillshot. However unlike skillshots, you don't get visual feedback of its maximum range when you miss, which makes learning its range more difficult than a skillshot requires. It's not a single-target spell, you can cast it and miss your target completely if you misjudged the range, a single-target will never cast without being in range. Contrary to your claims, auto-targeting spells are more complex than skillshots, but make a trade-off of not having to aim. Then targeted spells are more simplistic than both.

Changing Hymn doesn't open any "pathways." The only thing holding the door closed to Sona becoming a viable character is Rito's and Meddler's discrimination against her. She can work, she did work pre-4.13, but Rito is just intentionally keeping her the weakest support without a logical reason.

chipndip1Jun 20, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuzuki Yukarin,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-06-20T03:20:31.457+0000)

Except Hymn of Valor isn't nearly as "simple to use" as you're claiming. On the contrary, it's a very misleadingly complex spell. First and foremost you have to have its ranges memorized, much the same as a skillshot. However unlike skillshots, you don't get visual feedback of its maximum range when you miss, which makes learning its range more difficult than a skillshot requires. It's not a single-target spell, you can cast it and miss your target completely if you misjudged the range, a single-target will never cast without being in range. Contrary to your claims, auto-targeting spells are more complex than skillshots, but make a trade-off of not having to aim. Then targeted spells are more simplistic than both.

Let's not fool ourselves by saying an auto-targeted attack is somehow "complex". It's an incredibly simple spell that prioritizes champs over minions so long as they're in the range of the move. Like, come on now. There's no playing around an automatic result based on a button press.

Changing Hymn doesn't open any "pathways." The only thing holding the door closed to Sona becoming a viable character is Rito's and Meddler's discrimination against her. She can work, she did work pre-4.13, but Rito is just intentionally keeping her the weakest support without a logical reason.

That's true, minus the fact that Riot's balancing philosophy has changed. If that changes, Sona has to change with it. The problem we're seeing here is a clash of interests. You need to update your characters to match their current balancing philosophy if Sona's gonna have a fair shake.

zlumpyJun 22, 20165 votes

question if solo button press auto target spells are so Op why isn't Karthus seeing more play mid? As far as auto target skills go she does actually require skill despite what people thing. You have to predict where any skill shot that will engage on her will come from resulting in that fly by autoing she does. If she stops to add the AA to the dmg pile that's when she gets engaged on. Playing sona is a constant assessment of your surroundings to determine when and IF you can actually play the character. If the enemy has a non engage support then you get poked a lot. just like if there is a teemo and your melee you run over muchrooms, a yasuo will evade your skill shot by diving through a minion, a zac will fly out of the jungle on top of you, etc etc. Everything has a counter. heck atm the biggest counter to sona is an all in intensive team fight late game where the enemy stays jus tspread out enough to negate her ult while focusing champs and most likely her. People that don't like fighting against sona should just man up, take the hit and fight her. Seriously as previously mentioned she is the squishiest support in the game.

sum up: don't like getting poked then punch her right back within reason. If you force her to heal bot she will have 0 mana in less than a minute.

chipndip1Jun 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

question if solo button press auto target spells are so Op why isn't Karthus seeing more play mid?

Because Karthus's bread and butter spell is his Q, which is a skill shot, thus making him entirely different?

As far as auto target skills go she does actually require skill despite what people thing.

Sona will always be one of the easiest supports to play, next to like...Soraka, and even Soraka needs to land skill shots. There's just nothing you can fuck up on Sona save her ult. Now, is there more you can do with her than people give credit? Yes, but even then, as far as "par" goes, Sona's "good enough" bar is one of the lowest for supports, if not all champs. Don't fool yourself.

You have to predict where any skill shot that will engage on her will come from resulting in that fly by autoing she does. If she stops to add the AA to the dmg pile that's when she gets engaged on. Playing sona is a constant assessment of your surroundings to determine when and IF you can actually play the character. If the enemy has a non engage support then you get poked a lot. just like if there is a teemo and your melee you run over muchrooms, a yasuo will evade your skill shot by diving through a minion, a zac will fly out of the jungle on top of you, etc etc.

Yea, like this. You're fooling yourself. ANY champ has to deal with dodging skill shots and avoiding hard-engages. EVERY champ gets countered or outplayed. The difference is how often are match-ups in or against your favor. For Sona, the answer is "usually against", but it's up to the opponent to properly exploit that, which lower elo players don't necessarily do. Still, it's not good balancing to put a champ as the one with everything to lose unless the enemy messes up with no way to deal with that (in most cases, not all, of course).

Everything has a counter. heck atm the biggest counter to sona is an all in intensive team fight late game where the enemy stays jus tspread out enough to negate her ult while focusing champs and most likely her.

Wrong. Biggest counter to Sona is a competent Blitz, Alistar, Leona, or Zyra during the lane phase.

sum up: don't like getting poked then punch her right back within reason. If you force her to heal bot she will have 0 mana in less than a minute.

But you're just reinforcing the point that she's incredibly vulnerable, and thus low-key underpowered, in her current state...

zlumpyJun 22, 20164 votes

I geuss what I'm getting at is screw skill shots. Seriously she needs a total overhaul not a quick patch up. Tbh it doesn't matter what we want current sona to have because riot refuses to change her to a play style that would actually be fun, impactful, and not over powered. Funny enough the old sona was all of those things.

Yuzuki YukarinJun 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Let's not fool ourselves by saying an auto-targeted attack is somehow "complex". It's an incredibly simple spell that prioritizes champs over minions so long as they're in the range of the move. Like, come on now. There's no playing around an automatic result based on a button press.

Except that it doesn't always prioritize champions, in reality the targeting system for Hymn of Valor looks like this:

Champions within 550 units > Minions and monster within 700 units > Champions within 700 units

Which I guess considering almost half of her damage comes from conducting a 550-unit basic attack, isn't so bad. Except Sona doesn't have the damage output to justify near all of her damage being short-range. To compound the problem even further, she's the squishiest support in the game making this kit that much more counter-intuitive.

That's true, minus the fact that Riot's balancing philosophy has changed. If that changes, Sona has to change with it. The problem we're seeing here is a clash of interests. You need to update your characters to match their current balancing philosophy if Sona's gonna have a fair shake.

Rito is so fickle, they literally change their "balance" philosophies nearly every patch. Take for example the most recent 180 in their "design" philosophies:

"We changed Last Whisper to only bonus armor, because we no longer feel like it should be a 100% inclusion in every build. We feel depending on the situation, ADCs should build a flat-pen item instead, like Ghostblade."

A few patches later:

"We're buffing Last Whisper because it's not a mandatory item anymore and we feel it should be included in every build. Likewise, we're nerfing Ghostblade because ADCs have started buying it as a better alternative form of armor penetration."

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

chipndip1Jun 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuzuki Yukarin,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=00040000000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-23T20:57:48.069+0000)

Except that it doesn't always prioritize champions, in reality the targeting system for Hymn of Valor looks like this:

Champions within 550 units > Minions and monster within 700 units > Champions within 700 units

Which I guess considering almost half of her damage comes from conducting a 550-unit basic attack, isn't so bad. Except Sona doesn't have the damage output to justify near all of her damage being short-range. To compound the problem even further, she's the squishiest support in the game making this kit that much more counter-intuitive.

I wish, sincerely, that I could make people realize this. I really do.

Rito is so fickle, they literally change their "balance" philosophies nearly every patch. Take for example the most recent 180 in their "design" philosophies:

"We changed Last Whisper to only bonus armor, because we no longer feel like it should be a 100% inclusion in every build. We feel depending on the situation, ADCs should build a flat-pen item instead, like Ghostblade."

A few patches later:

"We're buffing Last Whisper because it's not a mandatory item anymore and we feel it should be included in every build. Likewise, we're nerfing Ghostblade because ADCs have started buying it as a better alternative form of armor penetration."

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

The balancing philosophy stays relatively constant. Something like this is a little more smaller scale than a generalized balancing philosophy. My issue is that they changed their philosophy drastically around season 5 or so, but are extremely slow and reluctant in catching champs up to the times. Like, as much as we can cry about Sona all day, there's a good deal of champs that need more attention than her. Especially fucking Teemo.

Yuzuki YukarinJun 23, 20161 votes

Yes Teemo needs help. More help than Sona? Hell no. Sona's been unplayable longer than Teemo and the fix to him is simpler too. While Sona requires are complete rework or (full revert+buffs,) Teemo just needs either longer shroom duration or higher shroom scaling to be a viable champion once again. Just one of those 2 buffs, either one doesn't matter. It doesn't even have to be a full revert: 8 minutes would suffice for duration; 70% AP would suffice for scaling. Rito just refuses to do either one of these, even though just one or the other would make him playable. Hell, they could add a 30% AD scaling on his shrooms and that would probably be good enough too.

Now that's not to say there aren't champs as desperate as Sona, just that Teemo isn't one of them. The more obvious ones would be Mord and Yorick, just to name a few and its arguable if any need MORE attention. I think it's more accurate to say they're all ~equally desperate.

chipndip1Jun 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuzuki Yukarin,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0004000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-23T22:26:32.104+0000)

Yes Teemo needs help. More help than Sona? Hell no. Sona's been unplayable longer than Teemo and the fix to him is simpler too. While Sona requires are complete rework or (full revert+buffs,) Teemo just needs either longer shroom duration or higher shroom scaling to be a viable champion once again. Just one of those 2 buffs, either one doesn't matter. It doesn't even have to be a full revert: 8 minutes would suffice for duration; 70% AP would suffice for scaling. Rito just refuses to do either one of these, even though just one or the other would make him playable. Hell, they could add a 30% AD scaling on his shrooms and that would probably be good enough too.

Wait a second, there. When WAS the last time Teemo was truly competitively viable? The addition of the Scuttle literally destroyed the effectiveness of his niche's main use (warding the shit out of the river). Even then...I seriously don't remember Teemo as a competitive pick.

Now that's not to say there aren't champs as desperate as Sona, just that Teemo isn't one of them. The more obvious ones would be Mord and Yorick, just to name a few and its arguable if any need MORE attention. I think it's more accurate to say they're all ~equally desperate.

Nah, I'd give "full overhaul" rights to Morde, Yorick, Xin Zhao, Nunu, and Kayle over Sona, if I had to pick and choose. And Teemo. Can't forget Teemo. After that, yea, I'd say full overhaul on Sona.

ÇhåryzårdJun 21, 20164 votes

One of her biggest issues is that she has no CC until lvl 6 so people can easily shit on her before 6 and she is vulnerable to hard engage pre 6

these updates did nothing at all except gut her

chipndip1Jun 21, 20165 votes

{quoted}

One of her biggest issues is that she has no CC until lvl 6 so people can easily shit on her before 6 and she is vulnerable to hard engage pre 6

these updates did nothing at all except gut her

I've been saying shit like this for ages. Everyone condemns me as some salty Sona main without really looking at her comparatively, fairly, to other supports that could be considered comparable to her, namely other enchanter supports. For such a defensive controller, she has very little in the way of defense or control. HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

ÇhåryzårdJun 21, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I've been saying shit like this for ages. Everyone condemns me as some salty Sona main without really looking at her comparatively, fairly, to other supports that could be considered comparable to her, namely other enchanter supports. For such a defensive controller, she has very little in the way of defense or control. HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

I'm not really sure what Riot was thinking when making these updates. Like....they fixed nothing and made everything worse.

Her Q didn't do much damage, compared to other supports. It could do damage but it isn't the strongest poke there is botlane. Her heal costs too much mana for the amount it heals. Her E tbh is fine but could use a little buff, not really a big deal though compared to the rest of her abilities. And she has no cc pre 6 so if the enemy hard engages on her or the adc they have to burn summoner's.

Now she can still be good, I've had games where I've done great and really helped my adc and we destroyed botlane, but there's also a good deal wrong with her and these new changes did absolutely nothing but gut her in favor of a late game buff that she may not even reach. I keep saying this whenever someone brings up the new Sona changes: Why make a support relevant late game when your adc needs you relevant in lane?

Like they did absolutely positively nothing to fix her and it makes me so sad that she's gutted. Her laning phase is going to be terrible, and that's the most important part of the game for an adc in my opinion. I have Nami and Soraka, they'd have better laning phases than Sona and give me a better chance at helping my adc...so then why bring Sona anymore...

Sona FemBoyJun 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Now she can still be good, I've had games where I've done great and really helped my adc and we destroyed botlane, but there's also a good deal wrong with her and these new changes did absolutely nothing but gut her in favor of a late game buff that she may not even reach. I keep saying this whenever someone brings up the new Sona changes: Why make a support relevant late game when your adc needs you relevant in lane?

I thought they learned this rework approach with Cass but no, now they are applying it to a support ..where supports are to be most relevant in lane.

Ale non è maleJun 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

One of her biggest issues is that she has no CC until lvl 6 so people can easily shit on her before 6

Are you serious? Actually Sona is a giant pain in the ass pre level 6 unless you are a good Blitzcrank or your ADC has good early burst once Sona is locked on by some CC

Sona biggest problem is that past laning phase if her team hasn't snowballed enough she actually has to position in the middle of the battle to empower her allies while being very squishy while her damage and heal fall off

The no CC is absolutely not a problem pre 6 as long as you don't get repeteadly caught by snare/hooks (but at that point you would be in trouble pretty much with any champ), if anything you feel it AFTER 6 when everything else Sona falls down and she is left with her ulti alone

chipndip1Jun 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2016-06-23T23:15:05.736+0000)

Are you serious? Actually Sona is a giant pain in the ass pre level 6 unless you are a good Blitzcrank or your ADC has good early burst once Sona is locked on by some CC

Sona biggest problem is that past laning phase if her team hasn't snowballed enough she actually has to position in the middle of the battle to empower her allies while being very squishy while her damage and heal fall off

The no CC is absolutely not a problem pre 6 as long as you don't get repeteadly caught by snare/hooks (but at that point you would be in trouble pretty much with any champ), if anything you feel it AFTER 6 when everything else Sona falls down and she is left with her ulti alone

Except even Jinx and Jhin can just engage and force her sums if they're skilled enough. 550 is closer than you're giving credit for, and a lack of cc pre-6 is a huge detriment as to why anyone would bother picking this champ.

Ale non è maleJun 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Except even Jinx and Jhin can just engage and force her sums if they're skilled enough. 550 is closer than you're giving credit for, and a lack of cc pre-6 is a huge detriment as to why anyone would bother picking this champ.

Jinx can't do shit pre 6 against her since rockets consume too much mana for her small early pool to keep them up and she normally has lower AA range than Sona's Q (525 is jinx normal range), Jhin must be extremely skilled to use that 4th shot to tear Sona down, especially because he is open to retaliation of the enemy ADC which beat him hard on damage if he is using the 4th shot to hurt Sona so it becomes an arms race to which duo bot lane has more damage, a reace Sona can usually win vs the enemy support in the early stages unless she eat everything in the enemy support kit (but then the problem is on the Sona player)

If you want to keep things straight, at least use decent examples to sustain your point...if you would have mentioned Miss Fortune or skilled Lucian you could have had a better point (even though it is the same point that I just mentioned in my post, LOL)

The lack of CC doesn't hurt Sona pre-6, it hurt Sona post 6, where enemy support stats, itemiziation or abilities outscale Sona kit hard

chipndip1Jun 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0007000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-24T14:24:45.185+0000)

Jinx can't do shit pre 6 against her since rockets consume too much mana for her small early pool to keep them up and she normally has lower AA range than Sona's Q (525 is jinx normal range), Jhin must be extremely skilled to use that 4th shot to tear Sona down, especially because he is open to retaliation of the enemy ADC which beat him hard on damage if he is using the 4th shot to hurt Sona so it becomes an arms race to which duo bot lane has more damage, a reace Sona can usually win vs the enemy support in the early stages unless she eat everything in the enemy support kit (but then the problem is on the Sona player)

Jinx : Throw a well positioned E behind Sona. She now has to burn flash or waste time going all the way around the traps.

Jhin : AA -> W -> AA -> Grenade. Shit ton of damage in one combo.

If you want to keep things straight, at least use decent examples to sustain your point...if you would have mentioned Miss Fortune or skilled Lucian you could have had a better point (even though it is the same point that I just mentioned in my post, LOL)

I mean, Lucian can just dash in and shoot her health below half, and MF can rip 1/2 of her health off with a single Q if she has a few Ghostblade parts. Jinx is the most able to just engage and coordinate a kill on her though because of her hard cc being able to go behind her.

The lack of CC doesn't hurt Sona pre-6, it hurt Sona post 6, where enemy support stats, itemiziation or abilities outscale Sona kit hard

Do you PLAY Sona at all?

ÇhåryzårdJun 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

: Throw a well positioned E behind Sona. She now has to burn flash or waste time going all the way around the traps.

: AA -> W -> AA -> Grenade. Shit ton of damage in one combo.

I mean, Lucian can just dash in and shoot her health below half, and MF can rip 1/2 of her health off with a single Q if she has a few Ghostblade parts. Jinx is the most able to just engage and coordinate a kill on her though because of her hard cc being able to go behind her.

Do you PLAY Sona at all?

No they don't play Sona at all. They play support but have 0 games as Sona from what I see.

Ale non è maleJun 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

: Throw a well positioned E behind Sona. She now has to burn flash or waste time going all the way around the traps.

: AA -> W -> AA -> Grenade. Shit ton of damage in one combo.

I mean, Lucian can just dash in and shoot her health below half, and MF can rip 1/2 of her health off with a single Q if she has a few Ghostblade parts. Jinx is the most able to just engage and coordinate a kill on her though because of her hard cc being able to go behind her.

Do you PLAY Sona at all?

Yeah, because then the enemy ADC do not exist? Sona has the ms boost to walk around Jinx traps, but then jinx has wasted the only way she has to defend from ganks. Guess what, jungler show up bot lane, Jinx get fu**ed because the enemy support can't block 3 people at once going on Jinx

Your Jhin combo rely on Sona not dodging Jhin W, which is, well, just like some other champ skillshot. Yeah,. if Sona eat too much enemy skillshot she gets blown up, exactly like every champ pre 6...what a surprise!!!! Plus, are you really mentioning the Granade? It has abysmal damage if you direct it at Sona, and she can walk out if you direct it towards minion first for extra damage

For Sona, Jinx isn't even close to MF or Lucian level of danger. She has to pull off her combo at perfection to chunk down Sona, which mean an outplay by her and her team on Sona and her team, or a Sona/Sona team f***up. We talk generally about equal skills here, and on equal skills it's not a matchup where the Jinx beat Sona everytime because Sona has the means to escape getting blown up by the full Jinx combo, and even sustain some of the damage jinx can deal her with her heal

ÇhåryzårdJun 24, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2016-06-23T23:15:05.736+0000)

Are you serious? Actually Sona is a giant pain in the ass pre level 6 unless you are a good Blitzcrank or your ADC has good early burst once Sona is locked on by some CC

Sona biggest problem is that past laning phase if her team hasn't snowballed enough she actually has to position in the middle of the battle to empower her allies while being very squishy while her damage and heal fall off

The no CC is absolutely not a problem pre 6 as long as you don't get repeteadly caught by snare/hooks (but at that point you would be in trouble pretty much with any champ), if anything you feel it AFTER 6 when everything else Sona falls down and she is left with her ulti alone

...literally all you have to do is hit her with anything. Do you not know how squishy she is?

In fact, her Q really doesn't do much damage compared to other supports. Her heal doesn't really do enough considering the amount of mana it takes to use it. I looked through your match history, I see you play support a lot but I see no games with Sona. As someone who has played her, a lot, I am telling you what is wrong. I'm not making it up, and a lot of Sona mains would agree with me.

What supports have CC pre 6? (I'm not going to include tank ones, more utility and poke like Sona) Bard Janna Lulu Morgana Nami Soraka Zyra Zilean

Sona is probably the only support champions designed to be poke'y and utility-y without any CC before 6, and she's extremely squishy and prone to hard engage. Hell if you want to include it, Annie Karma Lux Veigar all have CC as well and are being taken support more often, although they were designed to be midlane champs.

Sona is at an extreme disadvantage without CC. She relies on poke, and her augmented auto Q does more damage than her actual Q. Her Q really doesn't start doing good damage until she at least puts a second point in it. So in order to do damage at the earlier ranks she needs to use her empowered Q's, so now we have a support auto attacking the enemy?

Literally any CC counters her, she can't do anything except die or burn summoner spells. Poke counters her. She's extremely EXTREMELY squishy you have no idea. A good Sona needs to know how to dodge and when to go in because a wrong move leaves you dead. She can't help herself if she gets caught out unlike other supports. Nami can just bubble herself or bubble people walking towards her/the adc on an engage. Bard has is Q which automatically slows and the stun is applied if theres anything behind the person, plus his W for a small heal and speed up. Morgana has her spellshield and snare. Sona has absolutely nothing to get her out of engages pre 6 if she happens to get caught, and even the best Sona player can't dodge every single thing coming at them.

It really isn't that hard to stop her, in fact some lanes will actually focus her over the adc because she is such an easy kill. Her heal takes a huge chunk of mana, if you get her low and keep her low she will burn her mana healing and she'll be worthless in lane unless she backs and leaves the adc by themself. If you do nothing to poke her down or cc her and she continues to Q you, then you're doing it wrong and no wonder she's harassing you, you're allowing her to.

Sona looks big and scary but she really isn't if you know what you're doing.

Her Q doesn't do much damaged compared to the poke of other supports, its more the augmented auto that does the damage early game and she needs to get closer to actually auto you.
Her heal takes a huge chunk of mana and really doesn't heal all the much for the amount it costs. Poke down the enemy laners, she burns all her mana or tries to conserve mana and stays at low health in the process or leaves her adc at low health.
Her E speeds up and the buff to it is kinda nice, but right now its just kinda meh. It works and does its job but could be better. Not as much of a problem as her other two abilities are.
She is incredibly squishy. CC her and she's dead. Hit her with stuff and you'll do more damage than you thought you'd do. Early game there's not much of a reason to be afraid of her, she cannot engage on you or your adc.

Her ult is the only reliable source of CC/disengage that she has, once she uses it she is extremely vulnerable and engaging on her will get you a summoner spell burn or a kill.

A rework would be much better than these changes they want to put in place.

Ale non è maleJun 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...literally all you have to do is hit her with anything. Do you not know how squishy she is?

In fact, her Q really doesn't do much damage compared to other supports. Her heal doesn't really do enough considering the amount of mana it takes to use it. I looked through your match history, I see you play support a lot but I see no games with Sona. As someone who has played her, a lot, I am telling you what is wrong. I'm not making it up, and a lot of Sona mains would agree with me.

What supports have CC pre 6? (I'm not going to include tank ones, more utility and poke like Sona)

Ok, let's look at it then:

CC can be avoid by positioning
Sona has far more reliable damage output (the tornado can be avoided and her Zephyr has very short range)
has lower dmg output than Sona and her CC doesn't stop Sona in place to get trounced by the enemy ADC, plus Sona can outsustain Lulu poke if she can dodge some Q
snare get bodblocked by minions, while Sona Q passes through
CC is very unreliable and the same is for the rest of the kit unlike Sona one and Nami kit has higher CD early
can't outduel Sona pre6 if you keep her at low hp by dodging her Starcall (whcih has lower range than Sona Q), and her CC is lackluster
that match-up is tricky, but does Zyra haas enough seed early to set up her plants in a way you'd lose to her? Plus, her CC is telegraphed so you should be possibly able to walk out of it with Sona ms buff. Anyway it comes down to player skill on the champ
? seriously? He either burts you or he is a sitting duck, and is double bomb pattern is predicatble...you have a big window between his CD to punish him properly

Sona is not at disadvantage pre 6 because of CC...not against those champs And she does really well against tank support that have to close position too (Ali has trouble with his mana maangement to sustain Sona poke, espeically if his ADC get in some trouble with his HP). Aside from Blitzcrank and skilled Thresh in lane and pre 6 she doesn't really have very hard match-ups

Sona need changes? of course. Does she suffer in lane pre 6 because of lack of CC? hell no

ÇhåryzårdJun 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=0007000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-24T16:04:57.289+0000)

Ok, let's look at it then:

CC can be avoid by positioning

Sona has far more reliable damage output (the tornado can be avoided and her Zephyr has very short range)

has lower dmg output than Sona and her CC doesn't stop Sona in place to get trounced by the enemy ADC, plus Sona can outsustain Lulu poke if she can dodge some Q

snare get bodblocked by minions, while Sona Q passes through

CC is very unreliable and the same is for the rest of the kit unlike Sona one and Nami kit has higher CD early

can't outduel Sona pre6 if you keep her at low hp by dodging her Starcall (whcih has lower range than Sona Q), and her CC is lackluster

that match-up is tricky, but does Zyra haas enough seed early to set up her plants in a way you'd lose to her? Plus, her CC is telegraphed so you should be possibly able to walk out of it with Sona ms buff. Anyway it comes down to player skill on the champ

? seriously? He either burts you or he is a sitting duck, and is double bomb pattern is predicatble...you have a big window between his CD to punish him properly

Sona is not at disadvantage pre 6 because of CC...not against those champs And she does really well against tank support that have to close position too (Ali has trouble with his mana maangement to sustain Sona poke, espeically if his ADC get in some trouble with his HP). Aside from Blitzcrank and skilled Thresh in lane and pre 6 she doesn't really have very hard match-ups

Sona need changes? of course. Does she suffer in lane pre 6 because of lack of CC? hell no

Once again, you have not played her. You do not have a feel for her gameplay. I am telling you she absolutely is at a disadvantage pre 6 with no CC considering how squishy she is.

Also I didn't list those champs as matchups for Sona, I listed them because they are better at laning pre 6 than Sona. I'm comparing them to Sona. They are better at engaging, keeping their adc alive, and have more utility than Sona does.

Sona's only reliable thing before 6 is her poke, which once again, is weak compared to other supports. Her Augmented auto does more than the actual ability. That's all she has.

Try out some games with her before telling me how she is, because as someone who has been playing her for a very long time I have just listed her problems, problems which these new updates have not done anything to fix.

Also, once again, they all have CC. That is extremely important on a support, which almost every single support has. I doubt that's a coincidence. Can the CC get blocked? Yes, however a good support can land their CC and either save themselves/their adc or help get a good amount of damage off or even land a kill. Unless Sona can really poke down her enemy she's got nothing, and now they are seriously nerfing that so she will be incredibly useless in lane.

Ale non è maleJun 24, 20161 votes

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Once again, you have not played her. You do not have a feel for her gameplay. I am telling you she absolutely is at a disadvantage pre 6 with no CC considering how squishy she is.

Also I didn't list those champs as matchups for Sona, I listed them because they are better at laning pre 6 than Sona. I'm comparing them to Sona. They are better at engaging, keeping their adc alive, and have more utility than Sona does.

Sona's only reliable thing before 6 is her poke, which once again, is weak compared to other supports. Her Augmented auto does more than the actual ability. That's all she has.

Nope, you are changing subject here Sona do not get shit on despite the no CC thing pre 6 because her damage output is unique and very good. The lack of CC does not make her bad pre 6. She is not the best champ ever, of course, she isn't. But she has the weapons to fight back as long as she doesn't get caught repeteadily, because her poke is not weak at all To say that is literally false, among the listed champ likely only Zyra could beat her on damage unless you eat repeteadly people spells

Sona becomes very bad post 6 because despite acquiring her ulti, the rest of the kit just don't keep up with any other support that can be played. No one is arguing that, and Sona needs changes But to say lack of CC lead Sona to get shit on pre 6 is dumb

ÇhåryzårdJun 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMPrELVH,comment-id=000700010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-24T20:59:48.209+0000)

Nope, you are changing subject here Sona do not get shit on despite the no CC thing pre 6 because her damage output is unique and very good. The lack of CC does not make her bad pre 6. She is not the best champ ever, of course, she isn't. But she has the weapons to fight back as long as she doesn't get caught repeteadily, because her poke is not weak at all To say that is literally false, among the listed champ likely only Zyra could beat her on damage unless you eat repeteadly people spells

Sona becomes very bad post 6 because despite acquiring her ulti, the rest of the kit just don't keep up with any other support that can be played. No one is arguing that, and Sona needs changes But to say lack of CC lead Sona to get shit on pre 6 is dumb

....her damage output is shit until she at least upgrades her support item and puts a second point in her Q, and her augmented Q auto does more damage than the actual ability.

Want to compare? Here are the base damages for support poke abilities, assuming they have no items. This is base damage.

Sona - Q Damage - 40/80/120/160/200

Karma - Q Damage - 80/125/170/215/260 and this is without the bonus from her ult

Lulu - Q Damage - 80/125/170/215/260

Nami - W Damage - 70/110/150/190/230

Janna - W Damage - 60/115/170/225/280

Bard - Q Damage - 80/125/170/215/260

Morgana - Q Damage - 80/135/190/245/300

The base damage on her Q at lvl 1 does 20 damage less than the weakest poke support I've listed under her. Her Q is actually the weakest poke out of all the general poke supports, doing the least base damage at all ranks. Can it do a lot? Sure, if she has the gold to buy items, and to have that you need to do well in lane. But overall it is the weakest poke on a poke support. Now she doesn't have to aim it (but then again neither does Nami or Janna), only get close enough to the enemy, but the amount of damage it does is weak compared to everyone else and at early ranks it barely makes a dent.

You don't actually start making a difference with just your Q until you've leveled up your support item and put a point or two in it...wouldn't expect you to know though..since you don't actually play her.

Every single one of these supports beats her in damage...all it took was a few Google searches to find that out. Her only damaging ability is her Q assuming she isn't 6 yet and its the weakest poke ability out of all the ones I listed. She doesn't have to aim it, sure, but it barely does anything until a little later in the laning phase, whearas someone like Karma is spamming Q's and taking out chunks of enemy health, plus the fact that her ult will augment it to do more damage in an area.

You want to know what's really dumb? You're arguing with people who main this champ acting like you know what you're talking about when you haven't even touched the champ. We have experience playing her, we know how she is in lane, we know her strengths and weaknesses. Actually play the champ for a while before acting like you know what you're talking about because right now you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Sona needs changes, yes, I agree on that, but these changes being put in place are doing absolutely nothing to help her and are gutting her instead.