Modernizing Veigar

Volt Cruelerz··3 votes·793 views

TL;DR: read the change to E. I really think that alone would make him healthy.

Well, due the recent red posts regarding Veigar getting pushed back to 5.4 at least and being a Veigar main, I figured I'd throw my hat into the ring regarding changes that might be able to modernize him without destroying him for those of us that love playing him.

Let's look at the features that characterize Veigar that to change them would fundamentally undermine who he is.

  1. Hyper-bursty: no matter what, Veigar has to remain a burst-only champion
  2. Infinite AP: Q farming is a defining feature of Veigar's laning. Thankfully, I don't see Q as needing to be changed at all.
  3. Great Ratios: Veigar is Veigar because of his fantastic AP ratios. He needs to be a champion that if he hits lategame is going to hit like a truck. Earlygame can suck if it has to, but lategame needs to be something of a power fantasy.
  4. 100% Squish: Veigar operates very much on a kill-or-be-killed sort of mentality.

Now let's look at his problems that must be fixed

  1. Zero Counterplay: instant AoE stun+superb burst damage means that Veigar can take you 100->0 waaay to easily. Veigar should definitely be capable of 100->0, but it shouldn't be unstoppable.
  2. Very little ability to do anything to tanks now that DFG is gone, not to mention the drop in total burst

And a few problems that might be things to address

  1. Little teamfighting capability (not necessarily a bad thing)
  2. Extremely vulnerable to enemies building Banshee's Veil

So now let's take a look at his abilities: Passive: not really anything +/- here. This seems fine Q: again, this is such a huge part of Veigar's play that I'm pretty well convinced that this cannot be changed unless it were a very minor numerical change. That said, I could see it getting changed to be a skillshot. W: actually a pretty health ability in certain respects. High damage on a high delay. Unfortunately, it relies on E E: the primarily problematic part of Veigar's build. Instant AoE stun. This is probably the best place to aim for changes. R: overall pretty good. This does technically allow some counterplay as enemies can focus more on magic pen than AP so they'll take less from it.

So the real question is, how do we revise his kit, focusing on E, while giving him more counterplay and options himself. Obviously the instant effect has to go. There's simply no question there. He still needs to be able to stun in order to have the security he needs to burst, but enemies need to be able to do something. The most intuitive way is to make a delay, but I think it's obvious a mere cast delay in this case won't work. As such, I propose the following:

The Change E: Upon casting, two circles spawn instantly. One with a radius of 500 and one with a radius of 250. The larger circle will shrink and the smaller will grow until at 0.5 seconds, they meet in the middle at 375 where they will persist for 3 seconds. Enemies that cross the circles while the circles are dilating will be slowed by 35% and have damage output reduced by {25/30/35/40/45}% for {1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0}+0.001*AP seconds. Enemies that contact the merged circles are stunned for the same duration. Every enemy champion that contacts at least one of the circles reduces Veigar's Q cooldown by 2 seconds.

Now, what do this do? First, it gives counterplay. He can guarantee a slow and damage reduction, but he can't guarantee a stun. If an enemy fails to escape before the circles meet, he should have the power to drop a squishy from full health with ease. That said, because now you can escape with just a slow and damage reduction, you can actually avoid his nuke. Further, this actually increases his ability to teamfight by increasing his zoning power and allowing him to rapidly spam out Qs if he hits multiple enemies with E, compensating for the damage loss of DFG's removal. In addition, scaling the duration with his AP gives enemies more opportunity to shut him down early on while simultaneously rewarding a skilled Veigar that hits lategame.

Overall, he becomes more dependent on ganks to get kills, will have a weaker laning phase, and scale more devastatingly into the lategame. In addition, all the while there will be more counterplay against him.

Thoughts?

7 Comments

McAllister2 votes

I disagree that "there's no question" about his E needing to be changed. I'm alright with it being changed, as long as it's the long-duration stun I need to burst people, but I'm not convinced that the way it is is a problem.

killd0zer1 votes

It's literally the single biggest issue of his kit.

McAllister1 votes

I don't disagree with that: what I'm saying is that I consider it possible that the kit is good/healthy/balanced to the point where the biggest issue still doesn't really need to be addressed.

nibble1011 votes

I disagree with the idea that Veigar 100 to 0 hp take down is to high on par because it is easy to avoid/ counter build even on assassins and tank champions especially now can survive the nuke however I will say I agree with the changes but would like the circles to be a separate cast instead. What I mean is sorta like smite it has 2 charges but instead of a charge and cast the cast time could be timed like lee sins q and then goes on cool down. After which it would refund a small portion of mana if you didn't cast it 2x. This would reward skilled players with longer lane time and wouldn't compromise his utility/ mana dependency early game

I also main Viegar

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Are you saying that 100->0 should be easy or not? I'm confused. Also, could you try explaining your 2-charge idea more thoroughly?

EndGamer111 votes

IMO, his stun should be changed into a combo-ish ability, so that the cage stuns for .75 seconds, but for the live duration if Veigar casts Dark Matter over them, so that only a small area would be fully affected.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

While that could give him better assassination power, it drastically reduces his teamplay ability. You sure that'd be good for him?

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