PSA: Balanced != Fun to play against

Volt Cruelerz··53 votes·2,307 views

There have been some recent changes to Azir, Veigar, and Kassadin that I feel indicate some confusion between these things. Balance is when a champion wins half their games, not when they are fun to play against. All three of these champions have been nerfed on account of lack of fun when playing against them in the name of balance. This is an error. You can have an absolutely unfun champion to play against and yet have them be balanced. You can have the opposite as well.

Azir was a lane bully and shouldn't have been so he was nerfed. Since Azir is a high skillcap champion, I'd say that it would be healthier for him to be slightly underpowered by having a 44-48% win rate. Which he had the upper end of.

Veigar was oppressive once you mastered his stun and so was nerfed. Veigar's win rate was already below 50%.

Kassadin was oppressive if he got ahead so he was kneecapped. Kassadin's win rate was already below 50%.

When people wanted nerfs to these champions, many claimed they were overpowered. But there's a difference between OP and toxic. Was Veigar's E toxic? Yes. Is Azir a bizarre lane bully? Yes. Does Kassadin snowball a bit too easily once he gets going? Yeah. All of them needed changes, but none of them needed the categorical nerfs they received. Is it any surprise then that when they did get nerfed without compensation (Veigar got compensation, but as many predicted, it actually had no impact) that their win rates plummeted?

All three were underpowered and yet were given categorical nerfs to who they were. Again, they all needed changes. Azir needed his power shifted later into the game (As an Azir main, personally I'd vote low range on W at low levels, high cooldown on Q at low levels, revert Q damage nerf, and raise ratio on soldier damage). Veigar needed his power shifted out of Event Horizon. Kassadin needed, well, something (not a Kassadin player, so I can't properly comment here); perhaps a damage buff somewhere.

Please stop calling for nerfs to champions that are already losing most games. Just because you don't like facing someone doesn't mean they're too good overall. They might be too good at one aspect, so redistributing power through their skills might be in order. Azir shouldn't be a lane bully. Veigar shouldn't be able to 100-0 with impunity. Kassadin shouldn't be able to stay ahead so easily. But yet despite their problems, none of them won most games. Certain things needed nerfs, but other aspects needed buffs.

Again: is it really any surprise that when you categorically nerf three champions that were already overall underpowered that they will be relegated to the trash heap?

UPDATE: It seems that I've been unclear about a couple things. I'm merely defining balance as having a 50% win rate. I'm not saying that non-toxic champions should all be aimed at perfect balance though. I'm an Azir main, so I'm well aware of how oppressive Azir mains are. We're nowhere near where average Azir players are and given that he has such a high skill cap, this gives us a major advantage in-lane. To those that are thinking that I didn't think Azir was too powerful, you are mistaken. Upon seeing Riot's changes to him, I gave my own suggestions basically saying "I see what you're trying to do and your heart is in the right place, but do this instead because the nerfs you applied made him hardly less a lane bully but did make winding up much harder." In normals, my win rate with him was about 70%. Now, where that means the average Azir player ought to be, I'm not sure, but as I said above, it's probably best to be 44-48%, meaning average players usually lose, but advanced players don't just roflstomp everyone in their path.

What I think should have happened to Azir was first a nerf to his early game in a way that would strike at Azir mains while leaving average players less hurt. The changes that actually happened smashed average users and frustrated mains. In other words, the bottom dropped out from under normal users, but the skill ceiling really didn't drop that much.

What I'm trying to say is that categorical nerfs to champions that are already losing most games is not the way to go about things.

  1. If it's because they're a high skill cap champion, you need to go to those that main it and ask "what separates you from other champion X players and how can we reduce the difference?" This is what should have happened with Azir. Instead, he got nerfed categorically in a way that didn't actually remove his ability to lane bully for those that know how to use him.
  2. If a champion has a toxic ability, that doesn't mean they need a nerf, it means they need power redistributed from that toxic ability elsewhere, provided that their win rate is not too high to begin with. This is what should have happened to Veigar and it's what Riot tried to do, so I applaud the effort, but I feel like they should have known better than to implement the change as they did.
  3. Only champions with rates over 50% should actually receive proper nerfs. Azir, Veigar, and Kassadin did not. They all needed changes, but straight nerfs were not what should have happened.

47 Comments

Uperior7 votes

After the damage and range nerf on Azir; you pretty much need to go all in and use every ability to maybe secure a kill. If your soldiers are one step away from someone, they wont hit :c

Stephenizgod1 votes

I'm pretty sre they are increasing the Soldiers Attack Range on the PBE.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

They are. It's going up 50 range, from 325 to 375.

Stevev454 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkV0exnb,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-27T17:15:40.438+0000)

Veigar was oppressive once you mastered his stun and so was nerfed.

This is inaccurate. For me at least.

I thought It was a fun match up on both sides, and Veigar usually was at the disadvantage.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

This is inaccurate. For me at least.

I thought It was a fun match up on both sides, and Veigar usually was at the disadvantage.

veigar was nerfed because dfg was removed,yes,that's awesome logic I know.

His stun was a problem yes,but it wasn't urgent(the opposite,in fact,as veigar has been this way for an eternity),there is nothing to excuse these moronic poorly thought out changes,there was no reason to shove them live so fast.

Pæan2 votes

The one thing Riot can never balance is the player behind the champion. :/

Stephenizgod2 votes

Im not going into whether the nerfs/compensations were called for or not...

but i do want to say when a champion is unfun to play against then that upsets the games healthiness. You CANNOT have champions that are not fun to play against, its not good for the games health and its not good for Riot. This is a major problem in all games, when an aspect of the game isnt fun you tend to just avoid it or power through it. Why should a champion feel like this? "Oh geez an Azir well this is a waste of 20-30 min, might as well just sit here and do nothing while he @$$ rapes me all game...". Like i said im not going to go into whether the nerfs were bad or good, but its better for a champion to be not much fun to play then for a champion to be not much fun to play against. You can always just not play the champion if they are not fun. Besides ive read several posts where they said they are going to continue looking at and fixing these champions to see where they should take them from now on.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Im not going into whether the nerfs/compensations were called for or not...

but i do want to say when a champion is unfun to play against then that upsets the games healthiness. You CANNOT have champions that are not fun to play against, its not good for the games health and its not good for Riot. This is a major problem in all games, when an aspect of the game isnt fun you tend to just avoid it or power through it. Why should a champion feel like this? "Oh geez an Azir well this is a waste of 20-30 min, might as well just sit here and do nothing while he @$$ rapes me all game...". Like i said im not going to go into whether the nerfs were bad or good, but its better for a champion to be not much fun to play then for a champion to be not much fun to play against. You can always just not play the champion if they are not fun. Besides ive read several posts where they said they are going to continue looking at and fixing these champions to see where they should take them from now on.

idk,azir I can live with yasuo/kalista give me cancer though.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Its all a matter of opinion i guess but im sure majority of people disliked how much of a bully Azir was.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

It's probably because they didn't realise once he uses his Q to poke or farm (he also wastes a lot of mana cuz obviously he has to use W/Q), you can kill him quite easily.

If he doesn't do that, then you don't get poked while he saves mana and plays passively aside from hitting you with attacks that you can literally go away from.

Azir was a lane bully in my opinion purely because nobody knew how to counter him I guess?

Stephenizgod1 votes

Nah for me it was the fact that more then half the lane was in his range, his lane control was what made him a bully to me.

JedenVojak1 votes

{quoted}

Im not going into whether the nerfs/compensations were called for or not...

but i do want to say when a champion is unfun to play against then that upsets the games healthiness. You CANNOT have champions that are not fun to play against, its not good for the games health and its not good for Riot. This is a major problem in all games, when an aspect of the game isnt fun you tend to just avoid it or power through it. Why should a champion feel like this? "Oh geez an Azir well this is a waste of 20-30 min, might as well just sit here and do nothing while he @$$ rapes me all game...". Like i said im not going to go into whether the nerfs were bad or good, but its better for a champion to be not much fun to play then for a champion to be not much fun to play against. You can always just not play the champion if they are not fun. Besides ive read several posts where they said they are going to continue looking at and fixing these champions to see where they should take them from now on.

Every champion that beats you soundily in lane is unfun to play against - I don't see how specific champions matter in this instance.

A champion being fun to play is significantly more important than a champ that's unfun to play against, because the nature of the game is certain champions counter other champions, and since people tend to stick to a chosen few champs, they tend to hate whatever is strong against who they play as.

Stephenizgod1 votes

No, thats just not having fun while losing, there are champions that are absolutely no fun to fight whether you win or lose. Take Yorick, im pretty sure no one likes laning against him and yet its actually pretty easy to beat him, its just not fun. He isnt OP, he just isnt a healthy champion.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Please stop calling for nerfs to champions that are already losing most games.

thats exactly the thing that yyou needed to say nobody called for the nerfs, every body expected buffs or changes that will make them healthy also the fact that nobody called at all for anything dfg related riot just came and said we remove dfg, deal with it, but we will compansate for champions we needed to nerf becuase of it or who became too much of oneshotters

them they made ahri op, nerfed her nerfed morde and veigar

the only nerf that people called was azir, but they wanted his lane bullying to go, guess what does post nerf azir still do perfectly? he is still an insane lane bully without any chance at late game and in their patch notes riot even said that they nerf his early game, while all they touched was his late

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

To be fair though, I'm an Azir main and my best friend wants to be an Azir main. No matter how many times or ways I try to explain things to him, he just can't do it though. Maybe it's my years of playing RTS games, I don't know... But the thing was, when the changes first came out on PBE, his initial reaction was, "oh, that won't be that bad." I just kinda stared at him. Apparently I'm mixing up a memory of talking to him with a memory of talking to someone else.

Azir's such a high skillcap champion that it can be difficult for non-mains to wrap their heads around exactly what makes him tick. They really did try to reduce his lane bully presence and perhaps in the hands of someone who's not skilled with him, they are less able to lane bully. But the very first thing I noticed when I played the changes on PBE was "this barely scratched lane bullying." The second was "where's lategame Azir?"

The thing is though, his change is going to bring him back up to viability I expect (haven't yet gotten a chance to try the new one on PBE), but his lane bullying is still not going to be gone.

DarthScorpius1 votes

Hope that's not about me cause I perfectly understood the implications of his nerf.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

That wasn't you? Then who was it that said that and why did I get it mixed up?

DarthScorpius1 votes

I don't know, but I distinctly remember us at supper aghast at the 400 -> 325 change and we both thought 350-375 would be ideal. Maybe you were talking to someone on the forums who reacted like that?

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Azir in particular was completely destroyed by the range nerf. But Riot knows this and intend to fix it soon. I hope they do, I loved playing him before.

kDrakari1 votes

It's also worth noting that "Fun to play" doesn't require being overpowered, so it's okay to nerf popular champions too.

Partholonian1 votes

Yeah -- there's no reason LeeSin needs to do so much damage when his playmaking abilities are always going to make him fun to play, even if he were nerfed to the point where several other junglers could outduel him or win the 2v2 if they countergank.

At least, there should be some champions who can take item 3715 and outduel LeeSin item 3706 . Counterplay!

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

You have got to be high. Pigeon was not underpowered before the nerfs, he was severely overpowered. He dish humongous damage, in AoE, with little to no cooldown. His teamfight presence was gargantuan and his laning completely shut down any melee if you were competent with him.

He had good burst. Great sustained damage. Good range. Good counter initiation. Good utility (turret can halt teamfights pretty fast).

Yes, they overnerfed him, but to say that it was better for him to be the way he was before is complete garbage. He was so fucking unhealthy for the game that the league was much better off without him ever being put in there.

Volt Cruelerz3 votes

I never said Azir was healthy. I'm just saying he wasn't overpowered. The whole point of this thread is that there's a difference between the two.

1st HanarSpectre2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkV0exnb,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-02-27T22:26:47.274+0000)

I never said Azir was healthy. I'm just saying he wasn't overpowered. The whole point of this thread is that there's a difference between the two.

Except that he was both. Pigeon was 100% overpowered, the only people denying this are completely delusional.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

His high end is powerful, yes. But even at platinum+, his win rate is lower than 50.

LyraSona1 votes

A distinction without a difference. Point is, heroes like Veigar need to be changed so that they cannot even THINK about doing the kind of cheese strats they used to. Stun + 100-0 nuke. Not gonna happen.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

The difference is that if you nerf a champion like Veigar that had toxic elements but isn't actually overpowered, he turns into junk.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I can agree that he wasn't healthy since he wasn't fun to play against for most I guess, but yeah he wasn't overpowered which most people miss. Being annoying doesn't mean overpowered.

Azir : Weak-ish early and sometimes mid, hard to get back into the game if you fall behind, hard to play and especially to master, high late game damage, extremely squishy with only one escape/engage on a long cooldown, countered by simply walking out of his range.

He has defined strength and weaknesses rather than champions like.

Darius : You right click and maybe hit Q and R and you get kills even one of the strongest top laners (Fiora) who is designed 100% for dueling can't statistically 1v1 you.

Kalista : Kites your entire team while killing them.

Yasuo : One ability, counters every other.

PentaJump1 votes

Agree whole-heartedly with OP.

Narasimha1 votes

You can have an absolutely unfun champion to play against and yet have them be balanced.

Theoretically, yes, this makes perfect sense. The entire issue is perspective. At its core, League is just a game. And if a person isn't having fun playing that game, then something needs to change. Now obviously, you can't please everyone. For every change that makes someone happy, another will become butthurt. All you can really do with a player base this large is rotate the problem of the month. The other option would be a MASSIVE rework, I mean items, champions, runes, masteries, everything. And that would be an insane undertaking.

Oleandervine1 votes

Don't hold your breath about Riot addressing these changes in future patches. On the last patch that modified Cassiopeia, Riot claimed they'd look into addressing her stagnant passive because so many players hate it - that was well before Christmas, and she hasn't been touched or remarked on since. In fact, the designers have backed out and been dead silent since in almost all issues.

manbearswine1 votes

Since Azir is a high skillcap champion, I'd say that it would be healthier for him to be slightly underpowered by having a 48% win rate.

Can you please elaborate on this? As I really fail to see the logic behind making high skillcap champions underpowered.

Le Dauphin1 votes

{quoted}

Can you please elaborate on this? As I really fail to see the logic behind making high skillcap champions underpowered.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree (or disagree), but I think he means that Azir ending up at 48% overall (encompassing Azir mains and people just trying him out) would not be an indication of his skills or stats being too weak. Instead, a champion with a high learning curve is expected to have a lower relative win rate.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

The average Azir player is not an Azir main. Since I defined balanced as having a win rate of 50 percent, the fact that Azir is a high skill cap champion means that he needs to be slightly under tuned for your average player so Azir mains aren't oppressive.

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkV0exnb,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2015-02-28T08:19:30.318+0000)

The average Azir player is not an Azir main. Since I defined balanced as having a win rate of 50 percent,

See that's your problem,that's like defining 2 as 1,pretty much nobody will agree with this notion,most people are calling lee sin overpowered and he sits on ~46.5%,the very basis for your points is something almost nobody will agree with.(the mass upvotes stem for how mad the community is at riot's balance team at the moment.)

the fact that Azir is a high skill cap champion means that he needs to be slightly under tuned for your average player so Azir mains aren't oppressive.

draven is definetly not easy,his winrate is above 50% and almost nobody will call him overpowered by normal standards,your whole "winrate balancing" is pretty much something nobody agrees with(until it becomes convenient for them "lee sin is still overpowered,so what if his winrate is 46.5%,winrate means nothing" and then "kassadin got a rework and his winrate is now low,kassadin is now gutted and should've remained on his permaban throne for at least 2 more years,I can't get free elo like this.").

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

Okay, think of it this way, a champion is balanced overall if they have a 50% win rate. But that's not to say certain aspects like a particular skill (Veigar E) or what happens in the hands of someone that's mastered them (Azir) shouldn't be changed. I'm totally fine with dropping the high end on Azir and bringing up the low end.

While I'm not much of a jungler, so I can't properly comment on the Lee Sin rage, I would assume that he's in a similar boat where his high end is too high. I likewise suspect Zed is that way. Or perhaps they are in the Kassadin boat where they are just too difficult to shut down.

My whole point is that if a champion is lower than 50% and you nerf darn near anything about them, their win rate will fall. You've now made them underpowered. If you buff nearly anything about a champion above 50%, their win rate will rise and they will become overpowered. If you want to make healthy changes to champions that are already losing most games, you'll need to nerf some areas while buffing others. Otherwise you'll end up tossing them in the dumpster. That's my whole point.

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YkV0exnb,comment-id=000a000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-28T15:30:53.271+0000)

Okay, think of it this way, a champion is balanced overall if they have a 50% win rate.

Can't,that's just not true.

My whole point is that if a champion is lower than 50% and you nerf darn near anything about them, their win rate will fall.

Yes.

You've now made them underpowered.

No.

If you buff nearly anything about a champion above 50%, their win rate will rise and they will become overpowered.

No,I can buff everything about ashe and as long as I won't go too far,she still won't be overpowered.

If you want to make healthy changes to champions that are already losing most games, you'll need to nerf some areas while buffing others. Otherwise you'll end up tossing them in the dumpster. That's my whole point.

Which is just not true.

ZylotheWolfbane1 votes

I don't think you understand. Don't you see? Champions are only fun to play against if you win. So clearly we need to nerf all the champions that are even moderately difficult to win against, so people will have fun playing against them! Riot's plan has been in motion longer than you can imagine!

chumbler1 votes

I don't disagree with the thread title, but I do disagree with the idea that win rates have any value at all in determining balance.

Feathermane1 votes

I could understand having reservations, but ANY VALUE? Winrates are the primary indicator of balance, if they didn't have any value, that would mean you could have a balanced state of the game with a subset of 100% winrate champions, which is blatantly untrue.

ApplyForAGrant1 votes

This is true, ppl should read this before crying out for systematic nerfs on LB and Zed.

Le Dauphin1 votes

I agree with the general message (win rate and fun have some overlap but are different).

What I wonder, though, is how the balance team chooses what to tweak.

Maybe Kassadin and Veigar were the most broken things ever, who knows. Based on pick/ban rates and complaint threads, it seems like very few (if any) players actually found them a huge issue.

On the other hand, we have champions who are banned in more than a third of games, and picked in more than a third of the games they aren't banned in. Some of them with poor win-rates, so it's not like they're being banned because people are worried about losing to them.

Personally, I'd take a closer look at the high-ban-rate champions first before deciding Veigar's too oppressive and working on him, but that's just me. But yeah, curious how they pick projects. Right now I'm not sure what data they base their decisions on, and it feels like they do it based on some vague general principles they learned in a game design course once upon a time.

Mandang01 votes

Let's not lump all of these together - no one in their right mind believes Riot nerfed Veigar "on account of lack of fun when playing against them in the name of balance". Likewise, anyone who was paying attention at all knows that Azir and Kassadin were heavily banned, while Veigar was not. This isn't as simple as "Riot nerfed these champs because players cried", and while the Veigar change seems out-of-the-blue, it's consistent with Riot's attempt at increasing interaction during engagements (aka counterplay). You also shouldn't convince many people by saying Azir/Kass were as weak as Veigar because their winrates were similar - again, you're ignoring pick/ban rate.

On another note: why is no one making these threads about Tristana? Her winrate's dumpstered, and she was banned less than Kass or Azir was. Do people really think the argument's any different for her?

COWmanLord1 votes

Remember win rate isn't everything. Azir may have only had a 48% win rate, but to those who were good with him he was basically an unstoppable god. As riot described him he was basically a lane bully that turned into a hyper carry as the game went on. You can kind of see why there are issues with that.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

I'm an Azir main and I've updated the OP to reflect the criticism I've received like that from others. I'm aware of how unstoppable he is in the right hands. The problem though was that post-nerfs, Azir can still do one thing well: lane bully.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I agree that balance is not the same thing as being fun to play against, but it seems that there is a misconception about what exactly balance is.

Balance is determined by a large number of factors, and is not solely defined by win rate. For example, according to Champion.gg, Lee Sin has a 46.89% win rate in Platinum+ games. Does that mean that that he is underpowered, and needs buffs? According to your logic that balance means that a champion wins half their games, Lee Sin is overpowered. However, the reality is that Lee Sin is one of the strongest junglers in the entire game, and a large majority of players share that sentiment.

Likewise, Sejuani has a 55.68% win rate. Does that mean that she is a top tier jungler? According to your logic, Sejuani is overpowered. The sentiment among a lot of players is that she is not overpowered, especially when compared to the junglers most players consider strong right now (Lee Sin, Vi, Rek'Sai, Nidalee, and Jarvan IV).

The truth is, balance is not solely affected by win rate. You can have overpowered champions with less than a 50% win rate and underpowered champions with over a 50% win rate.

Volt Cruelerz1 votes

I didn't say each champion should be pushed toward 50%. Azir should be under 50% since he's a high skill cap champion. Not sure about Sejuani since I'm not a jungler. Likewise, I'm not totally sure what Lee Sin's problem is. Perhaps he's likewise a high skill cap champion? My point in this thread was that while you can nerf champions below 50 or buff champions above 50, you'd better do compensation somewhere so things don't get extreme.

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