Congratulations Balance Team: Azir, Veigar, and Kassadin are all below 40%

Volt Cruelerz··211 votes·13,377 views

The community is so glad that these champions, with their less than 50% win rates prior to their righteous nerfs, have effectively been removed from competitive play. It's so nice to see such evil champions thrown into the fires of trash tier.

[end sarcasm]

In Platinum Kassadin Win Rate: 47.83% to 34.88% Pick Rate: 10.28% to 3.91%

Veigar Win Rate: 44.78% to 37.25% Pick Rate: 4.74% to 4.52%

Azir (comparing pre-nerf to today) Win Rate: 48.29% to 37.26% Pick Rate: 6.45% to 1.72%

Urgot (for reference) Win Rate: 37.18% Pick Rate: 0.29%

Now, you may say "but win rate isn't everything." And you'd be right. But it does mean that these champions are making people lose games. At the moment, Kassadin is making people lose 15% of games simply because he sucks so much. Put another way, 30% of the games he would ordinarily win he will now lose. You may argue that things will rebound slightly and they might, but they will not rebound much (see Azir for reference).

Riot, your community saw this coming. We saw it coming and we warned you. But you did not listen. This is disheartening, to say the least.

UPDATE: Some have expressed in the comments concern that this worry is premature. Azir's been out for a patch. On the second day of the nerf, Veigar's win rate barely rebounded and Kassadin's dropped even further.

200 Comments

Derptionary108 votes

The hilarious part is that at no point in the last 3.5 years that I have been playing League have we had as many champs at a 40% win rate or lower as we do now.... Good job Riot, in your attempt to balance the game you've made it the least balanced that it ever has been.

Rew71124 votes

Don't forget Zac...

Kitten of Evil26 votes

Who?

Thryale13 votes

karma who?

Peridition19 votes

Lets not forget about the other casualities of Riot's delicate balancing act. Zac Elise Olaf item 3070

{quoted}

karma who?

Karma has a higher winrate then Zed atm...

Thryale13 votes

XD I'm referring to an old karma joke before her rework. (which I did not like mind you, I loved old karma mid)

TauNoob187 votes

I just hate how we were told Veigar and Morde were getting buffs for dfg loss. I don't even play them, I just HATE when anyone, especially someone or something that is supposed to set a good example, blatantly lies to us and expects us to believe them. It makes us feel abused as consumers and we feel like they just do not care for us as the community.

Vegas Dad19 votes

{quoted}

I just hate how we were told Veigar and Morde were getting buffs for dfg loss. I don't even play them, I just HATE when anyone, especially someone or something that is supposed to set a good example, blatantly lies to us and expects us to believe them. It makes us feel abused as consumers and we feel like they just do not care us as the community.

its okay because clearly Katarina needed the DFG hence her 55% winrate and defnitely ahri needed massive boosts to compensate for his winrate.

Rinky Dinky8 votes

Well morde honestly did get buffed in the end, veigar not so much....

junglerboy1615 votes

—because they basically undid every change except the W move speed and ally cast gimmick (which does not allow you to deal double damage or get double shield).

Painted Celt10 votes

The full 5.4 changes to Mordekaiser appear to come out to a slight nerf on the whole... Fortunately, we were able to dissuade the balance team from a full "Veigar'ing," but it's still ironic that these changes were presented as some sort of compensation buff. In a best case, the changes may come out to a non-change to Mordekaiser's power level. I will be solidifying an opinion on the changes over the next couple weeks as I get more games played post-5.4 Mordekaiser and new statistics become available... I am really trying not to have a knee jerk response to how bad the changes initially look.

Here is a breakdown of the 5.4 changes to Mordekaiser:

  • They more than halved Mordekaiser's base health regen, which is also his resource for ability casts...

  • They lowered Mordekaiser's maximum W damage output by 30% of AP and 72 base damage over 6 seconds...

  • They changed his ultimate so that he no longer gains 15% (20% of 75%) of his own AP while he has a ghost. This was way more valuable than 10% more of the opponent's AP, unless if you are always able to ult a farmed 1,500 AP Veigar or something (and the real punchline is that you probably aren't going to be seeing Veigar around much now that he got his own 5.4 "buffs")...

  • They significantly reduced Mordekaiser's damage to structures and Q damage (+165% bonus AD ratio) by completely removing AD bonus to/from his ghost...

And his compensation...

  • They reduced health costs only on Q and W, even though E is his main laning tool...

  • They provided a minor range increase on his Q (which is a melee auto-attack proc). This makes no difference in a duel taking place in melee range and it definitely won't help when being kited...

  • They provided a situational buff to his W if used on an ally. This shares the shield and provides a movement speed when moving towards the shielded ally... Only one shield can apply damage in overlapping area... Sure, this is worth something, but is it really even compensation for the nerfs delivered in this same patch let alone the removal of DFG?!

  • They made Mordekaiser's controlled ghost now provide 25% of the opponent's BONUS health... Great... I am still ulting their ADC or APC instead of wasting a 120-90 second CD burst magic damage ultimate on their tank... So this change provides me a whopping ~5 health thanks to their runes... Sweet (sarcasm)... I'd prefer the old AD bonus by far.

Silverthane3 votes

THANK YOU. ive been telling my friend id rather have the 20% AD and AP over 30% AP because the adc doesnt have any damn AP but the AD helps on my Q dmg and my AAs.

i just ask myself HOW THE FUCK ARE THESE BUFFS TO VEIGAR AND MORDE?!

meanwhile ahri gets special treatment >_>

Trídent6 votes

Ikr. Riot, stop lying to us please.

Economicz65 votes

I hate all of those champions, but it's scary how many characters are getting win rates in the 30s. If i don't stand up for these champions who will stand up for mine when the massive nerf hammer comes?

KaisadiIIa54 votes

"but win rate isn't everything."

When something is below 40% or above 60% win rate, you have a balance problem.

Jesus is Savior13 votes

{quoted}

When something is below 40% or above 60% win rate, you have a balance problem.

and this season, BOTH of those have happened. MULTIPLE times. lmao

junglerboy1622 votes

Agreed. However, when people say "win rate isn't everything" they mean that win rate right after a change isn't everything. Winrate over a period of several months to several years is in fact the MOST accurate way of assessing a champion's balance statistically. There are of course the issues of champions that need work done not because of balance but because they are anti-fun (hello Lee sin) or have outdated mechanics and need to be modernized for the sake of game cohesion and experience (hello Poppy), but having something jump so dramatically like these major nerfs is usually only an indicator for a little bit of how it works before things normalize again to a certain extent.

Major Sparkles6 votes

I like poppy :(

DollaMenunaire28 votes

Oh man, I can't wait to see all the Rioters come on in to this thread and give us their view on the situation!!

Miudmon25 votes

{quoted}

Oh man, I can't wait to see all the Rioters come on in to this thread and give us their view on the situation!!

i'm pretty sure that the entire riot balance team is doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalala we cant hear you"

Penguin Eclipse10 votes

{quoted}

Oh man, I can't wait to see all the Rioters come on in to this thread and give us their view on the situation!!

If it is anything like the last several patches....

"The nerfs in the latest patch hit champion X harder than intended. We will have a couple number changes up on PBE in time for patch 5.6 that won't really do anything."

AquariusGine27 votes

The winrates are so low it's disgusting..

I too had faith in the balance team, but they really have been making terrible decisions. HR should look to fire some people before the game starts to rot and it's too late to revert the damage

OblongOtter8 votes

I don't know about firing people, but I do agree this game is going to start rotting soon.

Xion Moonray21 votes

All hail the Eternal God-King of Mid Lane. May nothing contest His reign.

Ah, Zed. With your amazing plays topping many a competitive player's highlight reel, how could we not love you? All in all, Zed is one of the best examples of what we call a "healthy assassin" in League of Legends.


Zed's pattern of poking from a distance and waiting for the moment to strike is layered with counterplay and complexity.


While Zed's not receiving changes in this patch, we're committed to keeping LoL's favorite playmaking ninja fun to play as, and to play against


V5.2: Base Attack Speed 0.658 ⇒ 0.644 Attack Speed Growth Stat 3.1 ⇒ 2.1

Kitten of Evil9 votes

Compare that to Azir:

Q damage nerfed by 50 per level W damage to towers nerfed E range gutted

But let's be responsible with our balance changes to Lee Sin and Zed. We don't want to rush anything.

Thryale7 votes

Talon's pattern of poking from a distance and waiting for the moment to strike is layered with counterplay and complexity.

FTFY

oh wait.... talon isn't a "healthy" assassin. why? he has shorter range than zed and isn't nearly as safe. sure his burst comes in 2 secs instead of zed's 3 secs, but zed has so much more safety that if zed botches his kill, he can still get away. If talon botches a kill? RIP.

SmokingPuffin15 votes

If you watch the 5.4 patch rundown, those are some seriously sheepish designers. They know what they've done to Kass and Veigar, and they're not happy about it.

Someday this will be an interesting shop talk story. In the mean time, we should pretend those champions just don't exist for this patch, and assume 5.5 is bringing buffs.

Jarrito23214 votes

Yeah I was on the balance teams side for a while, but once the stats came out for this patch I was disappointed. Veigar and Kassadin are trash right now. You nerfed a champion with a low winrate already, and you added so much counterplay to Veigar that you would have to already be stunned by something for his gate to hit. Sure his farming is better if he makes it out alive, but really I can't see that happening anymore now that his only defensive spell is useless.

Psi2113 votes

Morello's hatred for Burst and avocation of hp/def items is getting retarded.

Making champs build tankie dps so boring.

ElvishSlayer6 votes

Don't forget his hatred for healers because they're useless in pvp and champions that require high skill cap like invokers because they're toxic and "burden of knowledge".

rolls eyes

J Eevo6 votes

You're saying "we saw it coming" as if assuming Riot didn't. Thing is they did and decided to go with it regardless, they wanted him out of the roster so they broke him on purpose so he's not a problem when his change/rework isn't ready, either that or wanted people to find a way to play kassa in a diffrent way (to which he's completely unviable for) and shipped it into Live for that purpose, as PBE is not fulfilling it's role at all at the moment.

PlaguedWings6 votes

As long as my Draven doesn't see any changes, I'm still happy.

Oh, I shouldn't have mentioned this. Uh, d-d-do you think they're going to nerf him now?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! LEAVE DRAVEN OUT OF THIS!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, though, is he ever going to see changes? After his passive change you guys kind of just left him as he is. Which is fine by me. But, people are starting to complain about his damage when I get ahead

Blue Moon Wolf6 votes

I love how last season half of them where some of the most op, after few videos of them kicking ass and a season later, now they are the ones who need buffed. the circle of life on the rift:

kcStranger6 votes

Riot needs to hire some people for their balance team who actually understand the impact that their decisions will have on champion strength. As far as I can tell, they usually have good reasons for the decisions that they make. They just make bad decisions.

I'll also note that Zilean's winrate isn't much better (38%/40% in Platinum/Diamond).

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that every champion should have a winrate in the 45-55% range in Platinum/Diamond.

Holy Fervor6 votes

Revert Last Patch. What they did in Balances name wasn't Balance, But Butchering. Fire Who's responsible Please.

Potato Wizard6 votes

Meanwhile Nidalee, Le blanc, Kalista and Vi remain untouched, despite most of them lacking counterplay and being anti-fun.

Tiphess5 votes

Meanwhile Irelia is still not nerfed after her last change there's 3 years ago

Aakesh15 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Irelia is still not nerfed after her last change there's 3 years ago

So Irelia got nerfed 3 years ago, then every other top got nerfed, now Irelia is bit of a pain to deal with because the carousel has come around again.

asktiks5 votes

aaaaannndd this is why Ive pretty much stopped playing since 5.1 realized Riot doesn't know their own fucking game better than the community and looks like I was right..

riot seems to be more concerned with bulshit lcs and the proscene than making a fun game anymore

move your headquarters to Hollywood riot, since you be more concerned with making a game show than a moba

im going back to Hots , still buggy, but way more fun than this nerflandia bs

Urdnot Entar4 votes

Riot logic is just... amazing

Blastermine3 votes

Also, Kass is an AD bruiser now.Kassadin item 3111 item 3042 item 3025 item 3110 item 3143 item 3102 . Of course, he feels even more useless till late game, but you don't have to try to burst people down with (630 + 2.10Ap) damage.

KaisadiIIa18 votes

Meanwhile LeBlanc has 1,435 +3.7 AP damage. Definitely Kassadin needed a nerf.

And as a side note, Nami has 1,130 +2.2 AP. Maybe, and just Maybe, Kassa was paying enough for his mobility.

4fortytwo22 votes

I always see people posting all those numbers but they never mention where they are from. Just out of curiosity: from which site did you pull the winrates?

Nausicäa 2 votes

{quoted}

I always see people posting all those numbers but they never mention where they are from. Just out of curiosity: from which site did you pull the winrates?

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ http://www.lolking.net/champions/ (LoLking is a few days behind and the winrates posted here are weekly, to get an idea of daily winrates you need to click an individual champion and look at the chart) http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/

Take your pick. They all show basically the same stats.

4fortytwo21 votes

{quoted}

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ http://www.lolking.net/champions/ (LoLking is a few days behind and the winrates posted here are weekly, to get an idea of daily winrates you need to click an individual champion and look at the chart) http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/

Take your pick. They all show basically the same stats.

Thanks :) , but my problem is that in no stats site (and i looked at a lot by now, including the ones you listed) the winrates are as low as in the post. Urgots winrate for example seems to be more around 45% and not 37% and thats a really huge difference. I really think people should always inlcude more information about the numbers they use (information like: is it only ranked? is it only gold+, or platin+? ) Otherwise a post that just complains about some numbers isnt really helping anyone.

Nausicäa 1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks :) , but my problem is that in no stats site (and i looked at a lot by now, including the ones you listed) the winrates are as low as in the post. Urgots winrate for example seems to be more around 45% and not 37% and thats a really huge difference. I really think people should always inlcude more information about the numbers they use (information like: is it only ranked? is it only gold+, or platin+? ) Otherwise a post that just complains about some numbers isnt really helping anyone.

Urgot's winrate is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Hes just historically been one of the worst champions in the game for a long time.

If you look up Azir on OPGG its listed at 38% and has been there since his nerfs in 5.3

4fortytwo22 votes

Well if i open Veigar here http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/veigar he has a 46% winrate. My main point is just that i would love it if people would start including a source thats all.

PrysonBeach4 votes

If you look closely at the graphs you are viewing (as of the date of this post) the win rates only show stats through the end of January. Veigar, according to these stats, has seen numerous spikes in play/popularity since last August, with a final spike in win rate at the very end of the graph. However, they are showing no (i.e. relevant) data for this most recent patch.

The 46% win rate your are citing only shows that Veigar was in a reasonably balanced place BEFORE the patches, if not in need of a very little bit of actual buffing.

Lead Death1 votes

I want to honestly say.. Good Riddance! Finally that rift walking bastard gets a taste of the nerf bat.

Cosmic Warper7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lead Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A17r3d4v,comment-id=0045,timestamp=2015-02-28T17:59:38.607+0000)

I want to honestly say.. Good Riddance! Finally that rift walking bastard gets a taste of the nerf bat.

He wasn't even in a strong state recently. The only reason he was played in competitive was as a flex pick counter to lissandra and maybe maokai. Everything else in the meta does well against him.... Riot just overreacted and nerfed him into oblivion without any justified reason.

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