Tanks Rework should come after the ADC rework

KONO RUBICK DA··3 votes·568 views

title They are just non-existent champions right now except tahm kench. Their items are useless now, and they all have been nerfed into oblivion (Maokai ) there are no reasons to pick them over juggernaut or Fiora Riot needs to do it, do mini reworks to every tanks to achieve a global goal like they did with juggernaut (immobile high tankiness high damage champions). Tanks should be champions that does high damage in early game while falling off, and help their team in late game with high utility. Their tankiness should scale in the game and not just be tanky early/mid game if they snowballed while being a piece of paper after 30 min in the game. And that's riot's big mistake because they either tend to be unkillable if they are 15 kills ahead or can't do their job effectively.

How to fixe it? fixe item 3110 item 3075 first, without them being abused by everybody. In the same way they buffed warmog without anyone being able to build it like in 2013

give to those items bonus effect if the champion has more than X armor (200?) that way it isn't 100% useless to stack resistance and it also fixes bruisers or some kind of champions abusing items like frozen heart for its cheap cost.

item 3110 should allow you to bring more utility aura radius 700 --->450

new effect: grants heart of frost if you have at least X armor heart of frost: dealing damage to a unit slows its attack speed by 15(+0.5% every 30 armor) for 2 seconds, stacks with the aura (10 seconds cooldown)

item 3075 should makes you tankier later in the game

cost: 2200 ----> 2500

armor: 100 ----> 90 new effect: if you have at least X armor, grants empowered armor empowered armor: reduce the damage dealt by auto attacks by 15% and reflect 15%(+25% of your armor) damage

_Riot nerfed it because sometime people rushed it for few gold and until having proper counter (magic resistance, lifesteal, armor pene) people were discouraged to attack them. Now with those changes, Thornmail scales well into the game while being weaker before. _

item 3068 cost: 2600 ---> 2400 item 1033 +item 1033 +item 3751 +item 1029 + 600 gold

cost: health: 450 -----> 350 armor: 45 -----> 35 magic resistance: 0 ----> 35 passive: damage changed to 35 all levels changed the build path

_Tanks should do high damage in early/mid game and that's what sunfire should do while falling off later in the game due to its stats, it should also give them the possibility to wave clear. The magic resistance here is to give the possibility to tanks to build it in order to do damage without fearing the problem of facing magic damage champions _ item 3143 costs: 2700 ---> 3000

health : 400 ---> 600 armor: ~~60 ~~ ---> 70 passive: changed the duration from 4 seconds to 1 seconds for each 100 armor/100 magic resistance

item 3056

cost: 2600 ----> 2900 health: 300 ----> 450 cooldown reduction: 10% ---->20% duration : changed to 1.5 seconds (+ 1 seconds every 100 armor/magic resistance)

every items were changed so they scale harder in the game while also bring amazing utility to the team and that's why the cost was increased to change tanks from snowballing low cost items to like everybody: high cost items that gives more benefits in stats and utility.

Now let's move to champions:

Maokai

now has 1.25 mr/lvl sap magic: now trigers on spells arcan smash: mana cost changed to 65/60/55/50/45 from 45 all ranks slow duration increased to 2 seconds AP ratio reduced from 0.4 to 0.3

vengefull maelstrom: now grants bonus ms to all friendly (and maokai) units in 475 range (aoe of the ulty).

changes to make him working as intended: he should scale less later in the game while bringing more utility and tankiness later in the game. The mana cost change is here to make him less obnoxious in laning phase.

Rammus

puncturing taunt: cooldown changed to 12/11.5/11/10.5/10 seconds shred duration changed to 3 seconds all ranks

Sion

Glory in death: 100% lifesteal -----> 10% of max hp heal soul furnance: delay reduced from 3 seconds to 2.25 seconds roar of the slayer: base slow increased from 20% to 70% duration changed to 1.25 seconds increased to 2 seconds if sions hits a creep unstoppable onslaught: max ms increased

the shield change is just a logical change, right now sion can never triger his shield and 3 seconds is too much, but i played sion before and 2 seconds was broken, we need to find a duration between 2 and 3. this passive change makes it so he isn't punished by gaining hp while not gaining AD. Finally the maximum ms of his ulti is increased to give him the possibility of hitting someone if he used his ulti at max range

Malphite

ground slam: damage changed to 80/120/160/200/240(+20% armor) from 60/100/140/180/220(20% AP)(+30% armor).

   ![Amumu](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Amumu.png)  ![Zac](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Zac.png) ![Nautilus](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Nautilus.png) ![Gragas](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Gragas.png)  already work well

Sejuani now i have no idea because i never played this champion, please post your idea to improve her

24 Comments

Big Lincoln3 votes

I think most tank kits are fine

their items just lend themselves to being abused by bruisers which is what riot should focus on

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zHb5w7sK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-28T15:01:40.211+0000)

I think most tank kits are fine

their items just lend themselves to being abused by bruisers which is what riot should focus on

just like they did with warmog

Big Lincoln1 votes

yeah.

some items should be accessible to everyone but I'd like to see various bonuses for X amount of a defensive stat

making thornmail more expensive but giving it, say, an active that scales with or requires an amount of bonus armor?

most of the items could be solved with defensive scaling or a set of items that appeal more to bruisers than to tanks. both need help imo

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zHb5w7sK,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T15:39:28.564+0000)

yeah.

some items should be accessible to everyone but I'd like to see various bonuses for X amount of a defensive stat

making thornmail more expensive but giving it, say, an active that scales with or requires an amount of bonus armor?

most of the items could be solved with defensive scaling or a set of items that appeal more to bruisers than to tanks. both need help imo

bruisers don't need help imo, they already have cleaver deadman's plate, sterak's gage, titcanic hydra and a lot more items

Mimy2 votes

Tanks or mages? Is the question. Only one could perhaps go next..

Taks have already been getting a varray of items.... Simply put might hold them off till their turn...

What do mages build? ... item 3089 item 3020 item 3285 item 3157 item 3135 and maybe 1 item that is different depending on the mage..

Always rabadons.. always.. they have just as much "Choices" as ADCs do now..

Rabadons is basically the mage's IE..


Edit -

tanks got item 3717 item 3742 item 3053 item 3748 Sense the new rift... 4 new items for tanks.. Mages gave up DFG for their new item Echo...

Just because mage item's number got tweaked doesn't mean they got an itemization

Enosetc2 votes

{quoted}

Tanks or mages? Is the question. Only one could perhaps go next..

Taks have already been getting a varray of items.... Simply put might hold them off till their turn...

What do mages build? ... item 3089 item 3020 item 3285 item 3157 item 3135 and maybe 1 item that is different depending on the mage..

Always rabadons.. always.. they have just as much "Choices" as ADCs do now..

Rabadons is basically the mage's IE..

you do realize that mages got their itemization updated earlier this season right

Zielmann1 votes

As did tanks...

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

As did tanks...

when? the last update was a full nerf for no reasons

Zielmann1 votes

MR itemization was buffed, armor was nerfed. And high-HP became a bit more accessible for several different build routes.

I honestly feel like the biggest issue at hand is balance of the champions, not so much the items. Though perhaps specifically Black Cleaver and Dead Man's Plate could use to be dialed back as well. These two just exacerbate the current issue of fighters in the game.

Mimy2 votes

while tanks got item 3717 item 3742 item 3053 item 3748 Sense the new rift... 4 new items for tanks.. Mages gave up DFG for their new item Echo...

Just because mage item's number got tweaked doesn't mean they got an itemization

Mimy1 votes

really? didn't notice... probably wasn't that much of a Itemization.. Because you know not many of the items really changed.... and playing a mage support really sucks... you know....

Tanks got like a few new items sense like juggarnauts and the new jungle with cinderhulk... but you know Mages got Ludens Ekko after DFG was taken away... One for one.. but you know.. they already got their itemization.. Yeah.....

Enosetc2 votes

{quoted}

really? didn't notice... probably wasn't that much of a Itemization.. Because you know not many of the items really changed.... and playing a mage support really sucks... you know....

mage itemization saw significant changes to build paths to allow different options from the deathcap, zhonya's, luden's core build most mages took. are you not noticing the rylai's everywhere?

Zielmann2 votes

The AP changes really did make a handful of alternative build paths viable for mages (as well as some mages who scale better with these alternative paths as opposed to the old 'standard' build you posted). Rylai's/Liandry's build has quite a lot more AP built into it now, so it doesn't have to be relegated solely to low-scaling champions.

Mimy1 votes

Uh huh.. Yea.. Tanks still got 4 completely new items.

We can go back and forth...

What do you expect me to do as a mage support? Lulu Sona Karma Annie Soraka Morgana

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Uh huh.. Yea.. Tanks still got 4 completely new items.

We can go back and forth...

What do you expect me to do as a mage support? Lulu Sona Karma Annie Soraka Morgana

support itemisation is an other story and it's being addressed in preseason

Mimy1 votes

I hope to see more item's like item 3504 that gives me AP and something to help my team...

Like it gives "Shields and heals grant attack speed"

I would like for the other things I grant my Carry to give other things too..

Because I feel like Alls I got right now.. item 3092 item 3504 item 3069 and maybe... item 3116 but it's cost now went up with the Buff to it.. I used to build it as a support item for taking down towers as a mage support and a adc who may be able to take it quickly.. item 3023 Could build this..

ugggghhhhhh Beats head off desk

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks or mages? Is the question. Only one could perhaps go next..

Taks have already been getting a varray of items.... Simply put might hold them off till their turn...

What do mages build? ... item 3089 item 3020 item 3285 item 3157 item 3135 and maybe 1 item that is different depending on the mage..

Always rabadons.. always.. they have just as much "Choices" as ADCs do now..

Rabadons is basically the mage's IE..

item 3116 being permabuilt in world item 3027 gives 100 AP now just like luden mages's item are a lot more than you are saying, didn't even talk about liandry

Mimy1 votes

All of these were already in game and people aready build them in the " maybe 1 item that is different depending on the mage.."

Just because they changed the numbers doesn't count as an itemization!

while tanks already got item 3717 item 3742 item 3053 item 3748

4 new items for tanks.. Mages gave up DFG for their new item Echo... YOU SIR HAVE NO ROOM TO COMPLAIN FOR TANKS.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

All of these were already in game and people aready build them in the " maybe 1 item that is different depending on the mage.."

Just because they changed the numbers doesn't count as an itemization!

while tanks already got item 3717 item 3742 item 3053 item 3748

4 new items for tanks.. Mages gave up DFG for their new item Echo... YOU SIR HAVE NO ROOM TO COMPLAIN FOR TANKS.

the heck? cinderhulk i agree and it's been added 1 year ago

deadman's plank can be built by tank if they want ms, BUT WHAT THE HECK? sterak gage only benefit to juggernaut who have immense base AD, titanic hydra doesn't work on tanks since they don't auto attack.

BastionKross2 votes

Tanks were actually in a great place before cinderhulk nerfs took them out of both top lane and the jungle. Nowadays if you want to play a tank, it's mostly going to be support.

And then the nerf to item 3110, and especially the devastating nerf to item 3075, followed up by item 3742 making item 3068 irrelevant for most champions almost completely removed tanks from popularity. Which seemed to be the goal, since tanks at worlds aren't as capable of those flashy plays as the classes they control like assassins and light fighters.

We'll have to wait and see how the marksman update goes though. If the update makes them weaker at killing tanks for whatever reason, tanks would naturally come back into the meta even with all the nerfs. If the marksman update makes ADCs stronger against tanks, then tanks will be gone from the rift until they get some love.

As for your suggestions, I pick a bone with this one:

Tanks should do high damage in early/mid game and that's what sunfire should do while falling off later in the game due to its stats

Tanks really can't afford to have their items fall off, especially if it's used for waveclear and sustained damage. Minions get stronger as the game goes on, so if sunfire can't clear those minions, then it's not serving much of a purpose other than being an item has an almost irrelevant amount of both armor and MR. You'd have to sell it late game for something better and more specialized, and since tanks have a harder time getting kills than other classes, they're not going to have a lot of extra gold in pocket to do that.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks were actually in a great place before cinderhulk nerfs took them out of both top lane and the jungle. Nowadays if you want to play a tank, it's mostly going to be support.

And then the nerf to item 3110, and especially the devastating nerf to item 3075, followed up by item 3742 making item 3068 irrelevant for most champions almost completely removed tanks from popularity. Which seemed to be the goal, since tanks at worlds aren't as capable of those flashy plays as the classes they control like assassins and light fighters.

We'll have to wait and see how the marksman update goes though. If the update makes them weaker at killing tanks for whatever reason, tanks would naturally come back into the meta even with all the nerfs. If the marksman update makes ADCs stronger against tanks, then tanks will be gone from the rift until they get some love.

As for your suggestions, I pick a bone with this one:

Tanks really can't afford to have their items fall off, especially if it's used for waveclear and sustained damage. Minions get stronger as the game goes on, so if sunfire can't clear those minions, then it's not serving much of a purpose other than being an item has an almost irrelevant amount of both armor and MR. You'd have to sell it late game for something better and more specialized, and since tanks have a harder time getting kills than other classes, they're not going to have a lot of extra gold in pocket to do that.

they can, because sunfire cape should be an early game item. Remember what happened when they made it scalling with level? immediatly must pick followed by nerfs. Sunfire cape should be an early game item that some tanks pick because they synergise well and needs waveclear (shen for example).

Lost In Time1 votes

I agree, delete tanks.

Pluie Battante1 votes

[deleted]

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pluie Battante,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zHb5w7sK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-28T14:51:30.137+0000)

Or maybe they could do both being Tanks and Marksmen are pretty much what balance each other out.

they can, but they won't. and maybe it takes a lot of time that they can't

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