https://youtu.be/yxyFMq3AQ1Q?t=236
The next 3 clips after this timestamp.
I knew this would be a thing when I saw this ability. Come on Riot. An AoE execute from basically half health that teleports him to that location if anyone dies, so he can easily use the reset on anyone who tries to get away.
I'm actually going to just play draft and always ban him. Fuck that.
Jaspers25 votesYou need to keep saying it, every one does. The damage needs to be straight up halved (base and scaling) and it certainly shouldn't scale with his level.
Paroe3 votesYou need to keep saying it, every one does. The damage needs to be straight up halved (base and scaling) and it certainly shouldn't scale with his level.
Ehhhh. It scales with level because thats an assassin thing. Maybe if it were 0.3bAD instead of what it is now?
But executes in general make most of reddit and boards salty. I still find people in game who hate on urgots execute too...
Jaspers16 votesAn Assassin thing? Since when does assassin's main killing abilties scale with their level and not points put into it? Heck, if you Ult with Zed than then do nothing, you don't even damage your target. :P
Keep in mind at level 15 Pyke's ult will do 525 base damage. Darius' base ult damage at level 15 is 200 (same as level 11), which he has to stack to get to 400. People don't like Darius ult either but imaging one that is n area of effect and higher base damage?
PB4UAME2 votesAnd doesn't require stacking, and is a blink to them, with much longer range, oh and he has mobility and CC as well.
Yeah, they need to take that damage and reduce it maybe 4 fold. I could see 125-175 base damage at 15, not fucking 525.
VoraciousX1 votesAn Assassin thing? Since when does assassin's main killing abilties scale with their level and not points put into it? Heck, if you Ult with Zed than then do nothing, you don't even damage your target. :P
Keep in mind at level 15 Pyke's ult will do 525 base damage. Darius' base ult damage at level 15 is 200 (same as level 11), which he has to stack to get to 400. People don't like Darius ult either but imaging one that is n area of effect and higher base damage?
Darius' ult doesn't only do 400 at level 15 with max stacks, it does 400+150% AD at max stacks, and he builds like a bruiser. So the question is, should a super tanky champion deal more with an execute than a super squishy champion who cannot gain more max health? Pyke's ult at level 15 would be 525 + 140% AD. Assuming he had around 300 AD that'd be 945 damage. Assuming Darius had 300 AD that'd be 850(not taking into account the 135+150% AD damage from his passive). It's not that huge of a stretch in damage(in fact with Darius' passive it's far more). As for it being AOE, unless you have 5 people right on top of each other you're not gonna be getting any pentakills, and again, if you don't kill anyone in it, or they dodge it, you don't get a reset. Heals will destroy his ultimate.
Ryusaether1 votesYeah, Darius should deal more. Because in order to gret his ult with that anount of damage he has to stack his passive 5 times in a fight or execute someone with Guillotine, hence it's conditional damage and single target. Pyke does tons of damage in an AoE, but he doesn't need to stack it up, at the expense of it being a skillshot and being squishier (but he also has a camouflage with healing passive and a dash+stun, with a ranged Hook as well).
I main Darius and I'm loving Pyke's design, and I disagree with the OP. Pyke is made to destroy fights or get destroyed, and his ult is fine as it is. Maybe lower his base dmg and make it have more scaling (though being a supp he'll constantly be underlevelled, while his ult passive allows him to get tons of gold, so it would maybe be a buff).
VoraciousX1 votesYeah, Darius should deal more. Because in order to gret his ult with that anount of damage he has to stack his passive 5 times in a fight or execute someone with Guillotine, hence it's conditional damage and single target. Pyke does tons of damage in an AoE, but he doesn't need to stack it up, at the expense of it being a skillshot and being squishier (but he also has a camouflage with healing passive and a dash+stun, with a ranged Hook as well).
I main Darius and I'm loving Pyke's design, and I disagree with the OP. Pyke is made to destroy fights or get destroyed, and his ult is fine as it is. Maybe lower his base dmg and make it have more scaling (though being a supp he'll constantly be underlevelled, while his ult passive allows him to get tons of gold, so it would maybe be a buff).
Well counting his passive damage it does deal more, a lot more. Although yeah, sometimes the threshold to kill someone seems rather generous, but at the same time Pyke can die EXTREMELY easily, and his ability to escape situations where he would die is not that great.
Ryusaether1 votesYeah he's something like a diver-assassin. If he doesn't get his job done well and quickly, he's probably already dead.
Now with the Spear of Shojin though... that will be really interesting (coupled with maybe Triumph and DD, although idk if that item is optimal on him neither if it's good paired with SoS).
Jaspers1 votesI left out the scaling on purpose because Darius doesn't build that much AD usually. He gets BC, maybe one other items then fight tank items, Spirit or Deadman's. Let's say he does have BC and Titanic Hydra, that's 80 bonus attack damage his other items are boots and a deadman's at 15 right? So 400, if he gets all the stacks, plus 120, so 520, plus passive damage in that time, so 5 stacks, at 15 is 135 plus 150% bAD, so 250. Of course not all that 250 will be used if he actually ults. :P Plus his passive is physical damage so you can get armour against it.
Now Pyke, at 15, he can't build HP so let's say he 'supporting' and has a Remnant of Ascent which is 350 HP, that's 25 bAD, then he had Duskblade and Youmuu's, so another 110 bAD, 135 total. At 15 that's 525 plus 189, 714 damage.... meaning anyone below 700 HP is dead. No stacking up there, run in with W, press R before people see you and win. Darius can't do that. Imagine if he could, if he does it's only 200 plus 75% bAD which isn't much.
But I do like people talking about this, it shows the Ult has contention from both sides. We already have compiled PBE videos of the examples above but as we know, Riot doesn't use the PBE for balancing but for bug testing (Remember AP Galio? ). We won't see what happens until he's released... and then gets nerfed. :P
SithesisLord6 votesI still find people in game who hate on urgots execute too...
Difference being Urgot's doesn´t reset on kill.
And needs to actually be aimed.
Kats Pajamas5 votesDifference being Urgot's doesn´t reset on kill.
And needs to actually be aimed.
you have to aim pyke ult
Chembaron Yamada5 votesQuestion is how hard it is to aim. Additionally, Urgots ult can be body blocked by allies, unlike Pykes.
In general I think the ability is fine, but they should tune down the scaling and health threshold a bit probably.
PB4UAME1 votesIts a ground targeted massive AoE that also goes off nearly instantly. I have yet to see a single person miss his ult.
Kats Pajamas1 votesIts a ground targeted massive AoE that also goes off nearly instantly. I have yet to see a single person miss his ult.
I missed his ult vs a bot dude, unless you are focusing only a single kill and going for 0 collateral damage, is it 'impossible to miss', but I will agree it's impossible to miss in a 1v1(nearly) but flash still trumps it, so does kat shunpo, I've see Kass Rift walk it so far, and the list goes on, so you ARE able to barely dodge it.
It's much easier to use his ult 5 times dead on than it is to attempt to hit multiple people between them.
PB4UAME1 votesI only count missing as in they don't hit their target. Yes, there is a difference between people who can reliably hit other people in addition to their target, but straight up missing entirely I haven't seen yet.
My Waifu Vanilla1 votesI mean even in Richboi Redmercy's latest video with the black cleavers the enemy zed ulted to dodge the pyke ult almost every single time so it is definitely possible to miss especially considering ANY dash or blink can dodge you out of it since it DOES have a fairly long cast time unless your reaction speed is absolute garbage.
Yets42401 votesHonestly, I think the issue is no one knows how to play on the PBE. I haven't missed a single Pyke ult, but then again, I've yet to fight someone as him who has a brain. I mean, I was legit matched with ADCs getting less CS than minutes gone by.
Spoofghoul2 votesLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
lIKE RITO WILL EVER LISTEN
SpecterVonBaren1 votesProblem is, then what good is he compared to other supports? If it ends up being really hard to even use his ult late game when everyone else on his team does a lot of damage and can kill enemies faster than him then you might as well take a different sup. There is no way they can balance this kit AND keep it viable.
CppL13 votesIts like aoe darius ultimate with a gap closer...totally balanced.
MrDrBudd8 votesI recall myself getting the threshold at 1100 at full build. Thats way too high.
ArfBarkBoof1 votes1100 HP at full build?
Ugh... what. That's actually ludicrously high of a threshold for an execute.
Ethri7 votesI haven't played with/ against it personally, but here are my thoughts about the clips.
SzGamer2277 votesIt's basically an AoE Darius ult that doesn't require Hemorrhage stacking to become a nuke.
Sire Hippington2 votesdon't forget the double kil gold part....and that it has a rather high range and works as gapcloser.
Bârd6 votesIn the first two clips, they had no tank.
In the third clip, they had ONE tank and he was already low.
In all three, Pyke was very fed. This is helped by how they're playing on PBE, and are leagues better than their opponents.
Pyke is good, and maybe Spear of Shojin will make him OP, but he's pretty balanced himself.
Nymzo5 votesWow some of them were still at 50% health, that's dumb.
Votable Jester2 votesHe was pretty fed in all those videos. Still probably a bit strong, but it is also almost all his damage.
Paroe3 votesIt is kind of silly because you can get the threshold pretty high. But its fine, even if its 1000 you still have to get people there AND not miss your ult. Its easy enough to miss.
Khristophoros16 votesLOL I bet you defended Zoe too
Paroe4 votesLOL I bet you defended Zoe too
No, actually i didnt even know zoe was a thing until i saw her Futaba skin on youtube. But i dont subscribe to blind hate. Executes are healthy - especially when they come with so many negatives from the rest of the kit as a whole.
Pykes execution threshold needs some AD scaling changes, or perhaps it should be a % threshhold since it has that handy dandy indicator.
Khristophoros18 votesThere is nothing healthy about an ability designed specifically to snowball a teamfight into a pentakill by executing while dealing AoE damage and repositioning the user.
The problem with this ability is the designer thought "I want to make a tool that gives you pentakills"
Paroe4 votesThere is nothing healthy about an ability designed specifically to snowball a teamfight into a pentakill by executing while dealing AoE damage and repositioning the user.
The problem with this ability is the designer thought "I want to make a tool that gives you pentakills"
Pyke gives up quite a bit for his kit. Especially since he cant get bonus health - thats a HUGE thing you seem to be glossing over.
His execution resetting isnt a bad thing either - it just means that he can be useful even when behind. Thats the reason for the resets; so he can function at all stages of the game on a support budget.
Khristophoros9 votesSo what you're saying is, it's fair for a champion to still get pentakills while behind? LOL good one.
Smitty Manjensen8 votesPyke gives up quite a bit for his kit. Especially since he cant get bonus health - thats a HUGE thing you seem to be glossing over.
His execution resetting isnt a bad thing either - it just means that he can be useful even when behind. Thats the reason for the resets; so he can function at all stages of the game on a support budget.
Why do people like you pretend like he doesn't get anything else instead of that health? He gains ad instead of it plus he has enormous amounts of base health, around 2500 at 18, the highest of anyone. Any other assassin doesn't get that much health the entire game even building cleaver.
Paroe4 votesWhy do people like you pretend like he doesn't get anything else instead of that health? He gains ad instead of it plus he has enormous amounts of base health, around 2500 at 18, the highest of anyone. Any other assassin doesn't get that much health the entire game even building cleaver.
Not being able to build health is a pretty big thing. Not having many instant mobility options on basic abilities or low CD escapes is also a pretty big thing. Pike doesnt have obscene mobility like say zed or talon. He's very diver like in that respect - similar to vi i think.
Anyway... Pike gets 2470 base health. Talon gets 2203 Kayn gets 2030 Kha zix gets 2018 Zed gets 2029 Shaco gets 2100 Ekko gets 2030 Akali gets 2113 Nocturne gets 2028 Kassasin gets 2106
Pike is about 250 higher than talon, 350 higher than Akali, Nocturne, and Shaco. 450 higher than the rest. Cleaver is 400 health... Pike is pretty in line with most melee assassins when they buy cleaver. Go figure. It almost like pike was designed to be a little more bruiserish considering his diver-like kit, which makes sense since melee supports often need to be tanky enough to shrug off harass and survive engages/picks.
Smitty Manjensen3 votesNot being able to build health is a pretty big thing. Not having many instant mobility options on basic abilities or low CD escapes is also a pretty big thing. Pike doesnt have obscene mobility like say zed or talon. He's very diver like in that respect - similar to vi i think.
Anyway... Pike gets 2470 base health. Talon gets 2203 Kayn gets 2030 Kha zix gets 2018 Zed gets 2029 Shaco gets 2100 Ekko gets 2030 Akali gets 2113 Nocturne gets 2028 Kassasin gets 2106
Pike is about 250 higher than talon, 350 higher than Akali, Nocturne, and Shaco. 450 higher than the rest. Cleaver is 400 health... Pike is pretty in line with most melee assassins when they buy cleaver. Go figure. It almost like pike was designed to be a little more bruiserish considering his diver-like kit, which makes sense since melee supports often need to be tanky enough to shrug off harass and survive engages/picks.
Still ignoring the ad he gets just to help your argument, very nice. You said it yourself he will have the health like Talon when he buys cleaver, but he will also have bonus ad which will help, don't know the exact numbers. His ult won't be balanced at all, I am positive of this. Especially when people learn to play him to efficiently kill people with the ult so both people get kills.
Paroe2 votesStill ignoring the ad he gets just to help your argument, very nice. You said it yourself he will have the health like Talon when he buys cleaver, but he will also have bonus ad which will help, don't know the exact numbers. His ult won't be balanced at all, I am positive of this. Especially when people learn to play him to efficiently kill people with the ult so both people get kills.
Because it doesnt matter? Pike might get AD for HP, but he cant raise his max HP with bonus HP like everyone else can. That is a HUGE thing, and it means that pike when behind will be in a famine state... Unless his ult is a threshold execute, which makes him viable at all stages from all points of famine. Further, pike is melee and has few ways to escape damage. His W has a large camo radius and his E is his only actually useful mobility tool (and is only really useful to escape after being caught or to run over walls from something). His ult isnt like zed, talons, or ekkos; using it to escape is a bad idea due to its cooldown and important to his kit. Its kind of hard to assassinate someone with his Q and E.
His health to AD ratio is 14 health to 1AD; Cleaver gives him 29 or so bonus AD (bringing it up to about 69AD from 40). Cost wise, its still the same.
Pike does not get oodles of bonus AD, he gets 3.5g worth of AD per 3.5g worth of health. Which is around 7% by the way.
Most of the health items he gets will come out to be about the same as similarly priced AD items(cleaver for example is 3000g for 69 AD; only 14AD more than duskblade which is 55AD).
Anyway, his ult numbers do need some changes. His maximum should be 300 or so, and his scaling should be around 0.8 bAD; As it is, it DOES have very high numbers. But we also need to realize that theres a very fine line between an ultimate feeling like an ultimate and feeling like a regular ability with a super long cool down.
Khristophoros3 votesRaising his max hp is like raising Zed's max hp... it doesn't help him. Raising his AD is the only correct choice. So they opened up more items to him for that purpose with this passive. He'd never want HP unless they nerf his base HP significantly.
SooFr0sty5 votesTalons base AD is 120
Pyke is 94
Black cleaver gives 400 hp which when converted with Pykes passive is 28, which when added to 94 is 122
Wild af
Solidair32 votesfed pyke played by pros against probably bronze players (mmr is not factored into match making on the PBE).
I doubt VERY much that he'll look like this in most games.
If it's a real concern they'll nerf it.
Khristophoros1 votesYou can probably find a lot of posts making this argument about pre-release Zoe, or AP Galio, etc... because when it comes to the PBE, the best footage is always from good players stomping noobs.
There are certain things that, if you are experienced at the game, and you are looking at it impartially, you know it's fundamentally broken regardless of the skill gap of the players involved. This is absolutely 100% one of those things.
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesAP Galio lasted what? 48 hours? 72 hours? Also, release Zoe had a learning curve which caused her to start off at a 35% WR for almost the first 2 weeks and causing people to think of her as being a troll pick. Not a good example.
Solidair31 votesI'm not saying he might not release a little strong, but what I am saying is that it's won't look THIS bad in your personal games unless you feed relentlessly.
and again, they'll nerf it if it's REALLY bad. We almost always get a hotfix a day or so after release with recent champs and champ updates. Let your concerns be known, but know that this game is in a constant state of flux in terms of balance. Things will get to where they need to be.
Khristophoros1 votesMy prediction: They will release him with his current numbers (LOL) and he will be broken as fuck. They will either hotfix or nerf him on the next patch. If they don't gut his ult he will still be broken. Eventually they will be like ok we have to gut that ult. They will nerf his ult enough and it will be useless because it's the most feast or famine ability ever conceived.
Once it's nerfed enough to be not OP it will be useless. The only way it's useful is if it's OP. There will be no middle ground for this ability.
Spank the Fox1 votesHow about the interaction where it gets full CD reset even if it doesn’t kill an enemy, but technically still executes?
Eg - Tryndamere ult, if Tryn is below the threshold, Pyke can keep using his ult on him until he dies. Same with Kindred.
(Source: Vandrilol video)
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zH8UuqQq,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-05-20T13:15:36.731+0000)
How about the interaction where it gets full CD reset even if it doesn’t kill an enemy, but technically still executes?
Eg - Tryndamere ult, if Tryn is below the threshold, Pyke can keep using his ult on him until he dies. Same with Kindred.
(Source: Vandrilol video)
Wasnt that interaction fixed though? Also Take Vandiril videos with a grain of salt, because the fun ones are usually him roflstomping low ELO.
Spank the Fox2 voteshttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l81LLH8JMgo
This was only less than two days ago and there hasn’t been a PBE update since, to my knowledge.
Also, I don’t use PBE examples to illustrate damage/builds; even in my post history I argue against it. But this mechanic is dumb and needs to be removed before Live.
Avicou1 votesOh man, it's almost like people who play this game professionally will be well above the curve when a champion comes out, play them, do well, and get a bunch of people who don't understand that a streamer/pro-player is NOT representative of the entire player base to scream and whine and complain about how br0k3n they will be.
Every single one of those kills he got were going to die anyway. He's not gonna be that good. Calm down.
Spankyhams2 votesPretty much any meta ad assassin with that score would kill all of thoose champions faster then what pyke did. Also all of thoose champion were at least 2-3 levels under the pyke. Also 