Why I Feel Ranged Carries Are Healthiest As Late Game Carries

Mira Arya Enthe··17 votes·1,469 views

I have seen a lot on the boards people saying things like "Ranged ADCs need to lose their OP late game, instead they can have a good mid/early game!" Likely because they dislike their team being behind resulting in a melt fest. Of course they likely also ignore that that Jinx or Twitch cannot melt them if it wasn't for their support's peel/heals/shields, their tank's engage/peel, their fighter's damage soak and threat, their mages burst on key targets and AoE damage/utility, their assassin removing the enemy melter(or fed mage who could burst their melter). They like to focus on the person doing the damage or taking the kills, and completely ignore that it was Leona preventing them from touching that person.

But let's talk less about that, and more about why it is good for Ranged Carries to be late game champions, and why them being early/mid game champions is far-far more toxic.

As a ranged champion, you innately have an advantage in laning. You can farm more safely and poke often with impunity. Therefore Riot came up with this idea, either intentionally or by mistake, "Hey, what if ranged champions were just shit early game and therefore needed a support to protect them? This makes supports valid and prevents ranged champions from being toxic in laning!" Being strong early game as a ranged champion is very toxic, just ask any melee top laner about Quinn, Jayce or Gnar top, or any tank/fighter jungle player about Graves, Kindred before nerfs or Nid before she was nerfed. Or heck, ask any ADC player who isn't a Caitlyn main how they feel about early game ranged bullies, considering Cairlyn out ranges and bullies Sivir or early Kog just like Quinn does to top laners. This is why it is healthy that ADCs, such as Ashe, Jinx, Twitch, Sivir are weak early game. Low base stats, low base AD, completely reliant on getting their items to be strong, vulnerable to ganks without a support. They only need be strong early game comparative to their counterparts, other ADCs. And strong enough to survive ganks/support engages when played well. People asking for ADCs to trade late game scaling for early agency, are asking for more Quinn, Jayce and Graves style champions. And if that is really what you want, okey dokey have fun laning.

But if they are weak early game, when do they get to be strong? Mid to late game. Mid game ADCs are just nearing the power of other champions, combined with their range they become a semi-valuable asset to their team, and more able to protect themselves so the support doesn't have to babysit them as much. This is healthy in my eyes. The problem is mid game spiking ADCs, unlike late game ADCs they are always partially responsible for metas where games end earlier. ADCs who hit their peak in mid game basically have to make it their goal to invalidate the enemy ADC/Team while they are still strong and close out games before they themselves fall off. Ideally this would be okay, but in it's current design champions like Lucian, Ezreal or the current Lethality scaling ADCs end up extremely frustrating to fight, and therefore often are nerfed(or get items nerfed) out of viability. The reason? Simple, their entire design is closing out games before they lose relevance, like Lee Sin, Pantheon or old Shaco(I am not familiar with the new one) forcing early close outs is annoying to fight, and often leaves only stalling tactics for the late game team, meaning they may never get a chance to play when their champions are relevant. Early game champions are fine, but they should be about gaining an advantage early game so they can close out about even or slightly ahead in late game(personal opinion). The aim shouldn't be for them to win games by 20-25 minutes, the aim should be that they set themselves far enough ahead that by 35-40 minutes they still have enough of an advantage that they can close out(if they continue to play better than the enemies) before the enemies regain too much ground(again personal opinion).

Late game is when ADCs should thrive. Why? It prevents tanks from becoming overbearing but keeps them relevant as the people to engage on and peel for ADCs and other carries. Tanks are shit right now, but this is because of a mixture of bad laning/jungle clear and high pen builds that remove all their defenses. Standard DPS ADCs still take a few seconds late game to kill a fed or even tank.

https://vid.me/IOkl

It is pen builds that invalidate tanks entirely, such as full lethality, LW and BC builds(Or even removing 1-2 items from that build). As well as things like shred built into champions, your ADC doesn't even need high pen if somebody on your team shreds for them(But this might be okay as once again, it is team based).

But normal healthy ADC tank shredding, where it takes 6-9 seconds to solo-kill a fed tank(in a patchwork DPS fight), is good. It prevents tanks from becoming overbearing late game. A melee carry would have a harder time countering this as they have to be within the tanks CC and Damage aura range and closer to the tanks team to do so. So while tank busters like Shyvana, Darius, Trundle and Fiora do this, they don't do it reliably enough to be the primary threat to tanks, they instead get to be secondary tank busters, off tanks and tanky melee DPS.

It also works well in a team game, ADCs being weak early game prevents them from being overbearing in laning and removing one of your team mates from the game entirely like Jayce or Quinn do in top lane. But in return they get to be strong late game, their late game tradeoff is ADCs are extremely team based. They are fully a product of their team. While an ADC can improve their own play(practicing CSing, mechanics like orbwalking, etc), their victory or defeat will still be largely based on how they position and coordinate within their team. They are a team player. This is why low ELO ADC mains are known for getting pissy at their team, what they don't realize is it is just as much their fault as their teams, they did not coordinate and position well within the scenario presented to them. Not blaming all low ELO ADC mains here, I know sometimes supports really DO feed the enemy laner, I know sometimes Nautilus does ult the enemy Zac who is leaping away instead of the Zed jumping on your face. But your positioning and coordination is the skill cap you reach for, so don't blame them if you get killed in the unwarded enemy jungle.

(Incoming personal philosophy) Talking to Raiku(A fellow Shyvana main) I heard what I consider to be a clever philosophy on how champions can be additive or multiplicative. I liked this and would like the expand on it. Being late game carries and low utility ranged damage dealers means ADCs are a multiplier for your team. Some champions are additive, they add to your team. Some champions are multipliers, they multiply what your team already has. Traditional DPS ADCs are multipliers, they multiply the strengths and successes of your team. This is why they are such an essential pick whether they are shitty or godly, because as we know... anything that multiplies your existing power is always strong and when combined with their range poke in laning is why they haven't been replaced in bot lane even if in general they do badly in a particular meta or balance state(even if say Yasuo or Morde had a better late game carry potential, laning vs a support and ADC who have poke is hardly possible while still farming). But being multipliers means they bring little to the team baseline, they do bring some strengths, but not as much as an additive champion brings baseline. So if your team's baseline is bad, ADCs only offer a little, but if your team's baseline is huge, your ADC will multiply that 10x over. (End of personal philosophy)

Overall I think ADCs being a late game class is the healthiest model. It means they need their team to provide them with protection, buffs, shred, debuffs on enemies and of course they need their team to remove the threats on the other team, such as the enemy ADC or fed Syndra. It means they can be bad early game and thus not overbearing in lane and bad enough at solo laning that taking them into a solo lane requires skill and risk. Mid game they can become relevant due to their objective DPS, siege and what utilities their kite does provide and late game they can rely on their team to carry them to victory while they multiply their successes and act as a team cannon.

That said, I do like champions like Quinn, Graves and Jayce, even if I don't play them and hate facing them right now. So if we still want some ranged champions who are good early game and are self sufficient or don't act as primary hypercarries, then we need to rethink their entire design from scratch and how champions interact in laning.

This is all personal opinion. And is based on LoL design, some other games fix range vs melee in laning(or at least claim to). But those games are also drastically different than LoL. Smite is generally just extremely unbalanced and wacky, Dota has entirely different mechanics to how champions function and items/scaling works, HotS is a brawler with minimal value on laning other than some siege/anti-siege and EXP soak. So comparing LoL to them is meaningless. Perhaps with a new engine in 2050 or whenever Riot makes LoL 2 these issues won't even be an issue due to drastically different gameplay. But for the time being, I personally feel ADCs being late game carries who rely on their team is the healthiest spot for them.

How do you feel? What solutions can you offer?

Thank you for reading, with the best intentions - Mira Arya Enthe

22 Comments

Ralanr5 votes

I was honestly expecting a comparison of ranged vs melee hypercarries.

You're not wrong. Though I still think that more Quinn's would end up creating a starting item that allowed melee champions to lane against ranged and thus improve diversity in all lanes.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Well that starting item exists, it is just garbage. Honestly I would make both Dorans Shield and Doran's Blade have a melee only passive that reduces damage dealt by minions and ranged basic attacks by an additional amount. In addition to fixing minion aggro it would help. That said as long as there are strong early game ranged champions it wouldn't be fully fixed, just due to how League functions baseline.

Ralanr2 votes

Thankfully Riot does plan on reworking shield.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Per usual, Riot is trying to do the right thing. They are just a tad slow about it. Not to brown nose, but with only a few exceptions Riot does try to fix most problems, the problem comes down to how complex LoL is and balancing both pro-play and SoloQ. I mean if you change one item by 5 AD you can make 10 champions while breaking 10 others which influences mastery choices on 10 others and counters 10 others which makes 10 others meta because their counters are gone.

Ralanr3 votes

Basically "Balance is complicated"

Ahristocats4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGasWrAM,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-03T17:42:26.646+0000)

As a ranged champion, you innately have an advantage in laning. You can farm more safely and poke often with impunity. Therefore Riot came up with this idea, either intentionally or by mistake, "Hey, what if ranged champions were just shit early game and therefore needed a support to protect them?

an thus, make them toxic in duolane instead of being toxic in sololane lul

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

How exactly are they toxic(barring some specific champions like any other class) in a duolane? It is poke vs poke so it is same fighting same. That is the entire point, it leaves the solo lane of top open for top laners and mid is where assassins can go vs mages or other assassins. It is keeping ranged vs ranged, and the only reason mages don't go there is because mid lane is safer and mages are exp reliant and thus duoing with a support wouldn't work.

Ahristocats3 votes

oh if your logic is that botlane should be marksmen vs marksmen in every game

then i'm out of this thread

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

Real mature dude.

Just becuase you CAN go off meta it doesn't mean we have to balance around all possible cases and bot lane combinations otherwise it becomes obscenely more complex to balance.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Yeh, if we tried to balance the game so that all 134 champions could play all 5 roles equally, they would never even get close to a balanced game, due to how LoL functions baseline.

And before somebody inevitably goes "Well DOTA does it so maybe the way League functions baseline is bad."

GO FUCKING PLAY DOTA! If I wanted LoL to function just like Dota I would play Dota. I play LoL because I don't like farm denial, turn speed and many other goddamn DOTA mechanics.

Ahristocats3 votes

you're so good at manipulating, i envy you.

i wish people understood that botlane is the role of carries and not only marksmen are carries, and i'm not talking about 134 champions, but only those who are late game carries

i wish people understood that and didn't mindlessly upvoted you because they read "go play dota"

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Mordekaiser we tried force interjecting other roles into bot lane Yasuo it didn't make many people happy Ziggs and requires some problematic mechanics to work.

Is there something wrong with AD DPS and AD casters primarily going bot lane?

Ahristocats3 votes

yasuo wasn't an attempt to make botlane melee, you just ate too much bs of board that manipulated everyone when CT said himself that yasuo was intended to sololane

Morde is a failure because they made a "special botlane melee" which means he was destroying ranged champions everytime because it was intended, and the intention was fucktard

you're going out of your original thread which was "marksmen are the healthiest lul" it's very healthy to be in duolane and being poked non-stop for hours and can't fight them

what they should do is give us better minions and it should be enough to solve the problem your original point was still false

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

You took a melee into a lane vs two ranged people and expected not to be poked. Which is exactly why it is healthiest that ranged poke stay in that duo lane.

Ahristocats3 votes

yes we do, else the point of the game is destroyed

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

It was in the glory days everyone talks about of S1-2-3-4-5. So sure, why not. It keeps support relevant, counters late game tanks from being overbearing, gives assassins something to kill, provides team siege, etc. In fact it is only in the worst season known to League, S7, that there have been contestants to replace marksman in bottom lane.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

To add on to that personal philosophy, Some of the most overbearing ADCs are the ones that bring a decent amount of additive power to their team as well as still doing their classic multiplicative stuff. Mainly the ADCs like Caitlyn or Jhin who are so unbearably safe that they have power without needing a team. Or those like retches slightly Quinn who do whatever they want early to melees and by virtue of building AD and having range remain relevant throughout the game. Not only relevant, but Quinn is an assassin who can, if needed, be a backline DPS source as well. Crit ADCs tend to be genuinely weak early, have limited to bring to their team outside of damage and modifiers for damage.

To Clarify, most everyone should have at least a little additive power to bring to their team. If you bring nothing, then you can be made completely useless, which is not terrible champion design (Glances at Yi), but should be done sparingly. It's when you can be fully relied on for a good amount of additive power to your team without losing on multiplicative power, and you end up with a huge amount of power for the team. There's reason the best ADCs right now are utility.

SLangedEdge3 votes

They should take a page out of dota's book. While not cut n paste the whole formula, i'm sure there are some other similarities LoL could borrow to make the bot lane match up more dynamic.

The reason you can have a melee carry with a ranged support vs 2+ ranged heroes is turn rate (which i know even LoL player hates), melee heroes inherently having higher HP/armor, faster atk animations, and higher base dmg.

To balance, generally melee carries have the much better late game while ranged heroes will taper off before that.

I would love to see LoL with a more dynamic lane phase with heroes that can flexibly play more roles than what they were initially designed for.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Another great post Mira, apologies because my thoughts may get long.

I agree that ranged champs have an inherent advantage in laning against a melee champ, this coupled with their early damage makes Graves/Quinn/Jayce really good bullies in top lane.

The thing that is supposed to balance them is the fact that they are all medium-ranged and fall off late game.

Graves Getting close to enemies like he does gets him blown up late game.

Quinn She just sucks in teamfights, and her short range compared to other marksmen mean that she would get blown up if she tried to fight like a traditional marksman.

Jayce the infamous EQ combo falls off in late due to the tanky frontline, and his squishy nature and damage oriented build means that he can't fight people that jump on him and can survive his burst.

Because of this, like you said, they try to win early game and make their opponent irrelevant, allowing their team to carry them if the game gets too long. But I'm trying to focus on the laning phase, since most top lanes don't have an issue against marksmen when they leave the lane with their items.

It's common knowledge that once a tank gets his items mid-game they are at their tankiness, and so if a marksmen going top is passive and lets them farm they will be outscaled midgame and will catch back up late game, but the game could be over by then. So the aggressive nature of their laning is a necessity to them being relevant.

The ADCs being bad early allow them to be pushed down before they reach their monster lategame, because the fact of the matter is you simply cannot make DPS "fall off" in League. The only way I could see is if they removed LW, thereby making tanks unkillable menaces lategame.

Therefore the damage of ADCs won't ever be bad lategame, so they are weak early to balance.

One way I could see Marksmen being good early and mid without being toxic is to make them more utility focused like Sivir.

Also I agree with your additive vs multiplicative philosophy. I want to add that I believe tanks are both additive and multiplicative.

They "add" to the team by being a reliable frontline, and they multiply by allowing the carries to live long enough to maximize their damage.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Another great post Mira, apologies because my thoughts may get long.

I agree that ranged champs have an inherent advantage in laning against a melee champ, this coupled with their early damage makes Graves/Quinn/Jayce really good bullies in top lane.

The thing that is supposed to balance them is the fact that they are all medium-ranged and fall off late game.

Graves Getting close to enemies like he does gets him blown up late game.

Quinn She just sucks in teamfights, and her short range compared to other marksmen mean that she would get blown up if she tried to fight like a traditional marksman.

Jayce the infamous EQ combo falls off in late due to the tanky frontline, and his squishy nature and damage oriented build means that he can't fight people that jump on him and can survive his burst.

Because of this, like you said, they try to win early game and make their opponent irrelevant, allowing their team to carry them if the game gets too long. But I'm trying to focus on the laning phase, since most top lanes don't have an issue against marksmen when they leave the lane with their items.

It's common knowledge that once a tank gets his items mid-game they are at their tankiness, and so if a marksmen going top is passive and lets them farm they will be outscaled midgame and will catch back up late game, but the game could be over by then. So the aggressive nature of their laning is a necessity to them being relevant.

The ADCs being bad early allow them to be pushed down before they reach their monster lategame, because the fact of the matter is you simply cannot make DPS "fall off" in League. The only way I could see is if they removed LW, thereby making tanks unkillable menaces lategame.

Therefore the damage of ADCs won't ever be bad lategame, so they are weak early to balance.

One way I could see Marksmen being good early and mid without being toxic is to make them more utility focused like Sivir.

Also I agree with your additive vs multiplicative philosophy. I want to add that I believe tanks are both additive and multiplicative.

They "add" to the team by being a reliable frontline, and they multiply by allowing the carries to live long enough to maximize their damage.

Quinn's got self peel, however, and movespeed, so her late game isn't bad as long as she doesn't overextend, and for the most part, hit whoever's closest to her (because that's usually the only person she can hit, else she'd be dead), aka, the tanks.

azrolator2 votes

We had a long period where adc's were squishy, but the only real answer to objectives. That is just over now. Turrets take damage from some spells and from AP power on hit which can be easily double the AD of an adc. Why would anyone want to play a champ that is dead when anything gets close to it and does no damage until late game. Everyone else is doing more damage early and assassins have more tools to walk under the turret and kill the adc and walk back out again. ADCs have a very limited role now more than in the past and it pretty much comes down to tank killer for which their team will rage toxic hard if they try to attempt before killing every other member of the opposing team first,by which time the tank will have easily killed the adc. Some games work out for the adc, but its not a rewarding role. Which you can see trying to get in games when nobody wants to be it.

Speeedy1 votes

Well you are right about some things but being a bot lane main you seem off on a few others. You cannot have them strong early or it will literally break them. The problems with the ADC class are simple almost everyone has a crap early game. Then the lethality champions are very strong mid game, finally the crit build traditional ADC are strong late. The issue is lethality. ADC players wanted a stronger mid game so we got lethality which gets outscaled by late game crit builds. Giving characters a strong mid game hurt tanks but without lethality crit adc are all but useless till late game the LW change helped but didn’t solve the fundamental problem. The lethality builds barely do less damage than the crit builds when they are both max builds. There are pretty much 2 or 3 non lethality champions that you can get away with playing in bot lane in no particular order. 1. Caitlyn - always safe and crits very well. 2. Twitch – really only good verse jhin (varus destroys him; you get stunned by his ult and then you die) cloak up to him slow him and hit R 3. Ashe – you are more utility for your team in team fights than an actual carry by letting mid be the hard carry. Lethality needs to be toned down to give you a choice of mid game strong or late game.

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