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Fixing support. the painful way.

G0blinSlay3r··4 votes·1,790 views

The gold you get from the Klepto + Spellthiefs would get you even if your opponent was farming

not all supports can wave clear, if your ADC keeps out of range or afk's or is griefing. your not gonna have a good time.

The issue is that the whole concept of gold gen items is game breaking they are required for supports to be viable but that they exist mean that there will always be abuse cases

So Riot just keeps on introducing more and more arcane rules governing these items until no one has any idea how they really work

just that you need to be a support to use support items and a jungler to use jungle items but everything else is fair game

well honestly riot should be allowing players that have chosen the support role to access the item remove blind pick because it's messy anyway now botlane will suffer income if they swap

it's the only fix i see in this state.

it is more future proof than any item modification.

23 Comments

banana boy2 votes

There is no fix needed for support items as:

You would get 21 gold from a melee minion and 14 for a caster minion, which is equivalent to 105 gold per wave.

With Spellthief's you can get 10 gold per hit. And that's assuming you take no CS.

So after one wave passes, you need to hit a champion 11 times to get the same gold value.

You would need to hit a champion/turret 50 times (turret would be impossible if you're just freezing the wave) to complete the Quest and upgrade the item (500 gold). In the time it takes to do this, you would've lost far more gold from CS than getting the 500 Gold from Spellthief's.

You can only freeze a wave so long until you die to minions.

IMO, these items are very well designed for supports as they can't take any CS/jungle but need some way of getting gold like every other role can.

Also, what's wrong with blind pick? It is a game mode for people that are less experienced than draft and don't want to see their champion main banned every time.

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=banana boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-13T22:40:12.541+0000)

There is no fix needed for support items as:

You would get 21 gold from a melee minion and 14 for a caster minion, which is equivalent to 105 gold per wave.

With Spellthief's you can get 10 gold per hit. And that's assuming you take no CS.

So after one wave passes, you need to hit a champion 11 times to get the same gold value.

You would need to hit a champion/turret 50 times (turret would be impossible if you're just freezing the wave) to complete the Quest and upgrade the item (500 gold). In the time it takes to do this, you would've lost far more gold from CS than getting the 500 Gold from Spellthief's.

You can only freeze a wave so long until you die to minions.

IMO, these items are very well designed for supports as they can't take any CS/jungle but need some way of getting gold like every other role can.

Also, what's wrong with blind pick? It is a game mode for people that are less experienced than draft and don't want to see their champion main banned every time.

Blind pick does not allow you to call your role. So the system cannot know who is the support, and make the item available to only them.

ChaosReyn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=banana boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-13T22:40:12.541+0000)

There is no fix needed for support items as:

You would get 21 gold from a melee minion and 14 for a caster minion, which is equivalent to 105 gold per wave.

With Spellthief's you can get 10 gold per hit. And that's assuming you take no CS.

So after one wave passes, you need to hit a champion 11 times to get the same gold value.

You would need to hit a champion/turret 50 times (turret would be impossible if you're just freezing the wave) to complete the Quest and upgrade the item (500 gold). In the time it takes to do this, you would've lost far more gold from CS than getting the 500 Gold from Spellthief's.

You can only freeze a wave so long until you die to minions.

IMO, these items are very well designed for supports as they can't take any CS/jungle but need some way of getting gold like every other role can.

Also, what's wrong with blind pick? It is a game mode for people that are less experienced than draft and don't want to see their champion main banned every time.

Spellthief's edge was giving 7 gold per hit (but I'll round it to 10 and be nice about it...), with 3 charges that each took (if I remember correctly) about 20s each to recharge. Frostfang (the upgrade) gave 15g on the same grounds. The average clear time for a wave by last hitting only is around 15-20s. You can get a MAXIMUM of 4 procs off the support item in this time, and that's assuming you had all 3 charges and you were able to regain one. That's either 40 or 60 gold while your opponent (if they're not a monkey and missing all their cs) gains their 105. Even adding one more proc for the siege wave and adding the cannon minion's gold to the other side (somewhere around 65g?) that's either 50 or 75 vs about 170.

Therefore, all the "abuse" reports were made by salty players that were upset that their "freelo" opposing solo laner outplayed them and won with no cs and a support item. It also probably means that they disabled the hotkey for their trinket, because in order for that to happen in any way, ever, they probably got successfully ganked repeatedly in the early game.

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=banana boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-13T22:40:12.541+0000)

There is no fix needed for support items as:

As a support you should not be taking CS unless your adc is missing.

Shahamut1 votes

They already made a fix where the gold income requires a nearby ally to activate. Hence no solo lane gold gen.

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

{quoted}

They already made a fix where the gold income requires a nearby ally to activate. Hence no solo lane gold gen.

my apologies i did adress this in my edit.

not all supports can wave clear, if your ADC keeps out of range or afk's or is griefing. your not gonna have a good time.

HommeGoujon1 votes

If nobody is around... just farm like everybody else. What's the big deal? The penalty on Spellthief? Maybe if they reduced it to like 8 seconds per minion killed... other than that I don't see any problem with the changes.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

or how about this. make it so you can only use the items if you take a specific summoner spell, say exhaust because it's the most popular. similar to the way jungling works and you must take smite in order to access the smite items.

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

{quoted}

or how about this. make it so you can only use the items if you take a specific summoner spell, say exhaust because it's the most popular. similar to the way jungling works and you must take smite in order to access the smite items.

what stops me from taking that spell and going top lane?

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

if we're talking a new summ it'll be designed for the support role and only useful with an ally near.so maybe not much if we just expect lots of jungle ganks.

hrooza dota 1 votes

exhaust is viable pick in the mid lane where also the tactic is used

but then a lot of supports take summoner 14

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

500 views and not a single down or up vote? riot! is this thing on or do you just hate supports?

DemonsWithUS1 votes

{quoted}

500 views and not a single down or up vote? riot! is this thing on or do you just hate supports?

Yep it's broken. Not authorized.

Colonel J1 votes

{quoted}

500 views and not a single down or up vote? riot! is this thing on or do you just hate supports?

I upvoted it just for you o/

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-02-14T02:37:55.547+0000)

I upvoted it just for you o/

Ty it looked so broken. XD

Kubox1 votes

Not that it can't be done but Riot has been pretty insistent on Champ select not affecting the game once it has started, which I can't say I disagree with.

I persist in thinking that implementing a Solo Exp cut from minions and monsters on the support items would easily keep it away from every solo laners, as most of our exp gain is duo exp anyway. Duo exp itself being a 35% cut, I'd imagine something between that and 15% would be good enough. It also gives an easy leverage point if it starts being used again. At that point, all you really need to care about is the bot laners using them, which is still better than every role.

From there, you can create items that can only be bought with a support item in the inventory and start giving supports option without fear of abuse from other roles, items that can even potentially solve any issue that might be created from cutting a support's solo exp gain, especially for mage supports that might be feeling bad about going to a side-lane every once in a while.

hrooza dota 1 votes

(remove blind pick because it's messy anyway)

hey just because you dont like it dont mean theres noone enjoying it

[sg-lux-2]

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-02-14T14:27:06.078+0000)

(remove blind pick because it's messy anyway)

hey just because you dont like it dont mean theres noone enjoying it

[sg-lux-2]

i never said I hated it? it would need to be removed to ensure the system works across the game. however this has been addressed in this thread already.

hrooza dota 1 votes

your system is bad if you have to remove a game mode just because of it

the changes they did to fix support items are fine only problem is item 3303 penalty which can be fixed. anyway you should be next to somebody almost all the time as a support and if your adc is afk or griefing then you have much bigger problems then trying to get income from support items.

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z924BN6M,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T15:05:09.870+0000)

your system is bad if you have to remove a game mode just because of it

the changes they did to fix support items are fine only problem is item 3303 penalty which can be fixed. anyway you should be next to somebody almost all the time as a support and if your adc is afk or griefing then you have much bigger problems then trying to get income from support items.

The difference is that my idea is future proof,

hrooza dota 1 votes

their idea wont drive casual players away.

after all this game future should include everything not only balance

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