The game...never gets to late anymore

StoryDuck··63 votes·3,015 views

Every game I have been playing or watched seems to end between 15-30 minutes. It often seems like the game is over at 10 minutes. I like getting to the late game and specifically like late game scaling champions. However, it seems really hard to do that now. I know a lot of changes have been implemented (and I'm familiar with the details of 5.22) but I can't quite place why this huge feel in the pace of game has taken hold. Towers being weak is nothing new. I've gone to late game after my team had lost all three tier 1 lane towers in early only to be behind by tower gold + a bit more only to come back and win the game with our scaling. One lane losing (even to a Yasuo) was never an impossible task even if they snowballed because some well placed CC could always keep them focused down. I haven't really seen people taking huge advantage of the Herald. The items seem to all be more expensive and have lower stats (except tank stats). There is an abundance of crit but games lost are just as often based off a snowballing AP as an AD. Now...it is almost an impossible task to get to late. It's like it became super easy for the enemy (or my team) to siege in the early game and have some sort of huge stats advantage pre-20 minutes.

Try as I might I just can't wrap my head around why. What exactly is causing such huge upturns in power in the early phases of the game and why does early mid game seem so insurmountable when behind? Anyone have some insights? I would really like some details as to what is going on beyond "because 5.22 update is crap". Perhaps if I can figure out exactly what is causing this I might be able to change my play style to help combat it.

66 Comments

Only Play Darius6 votes

Trust me as a Nasus main I am feeling this pain full force.

It's just too much like team deathmatch now and now you don't have time to farm for more than 5 minutes or else you screw your team

Kal Vas Flam5 votes

People are quiting sooner and that's about the only difference. Towers being weaker probably shave about 5 min off most games.

StoryDuck3 votes

I've certainly been seeing a lot more FF at 20. Seems like a whole hell of a lot more of a power gain pre-20 minutes though.

Super Spooky4 votes

A couple kills and a tower early can snowball an entire team to the point where the other side finds it literally impossible to win, while last patch they would have more than enough chance to come back.

StoryDuck3 votes

Yeah, I know. The question is, what did these champions gain in the last patch that makes snowballing so powerful now? It's not like they reworked every champion and AD totals are lower as most AD items went from +80 to +65 ad. I think I'm starting to piece it together and towers seems to be playing a bigger part then I thought. I think one of the biggest problems is that towers were not only weakened they also upped the gold they give locally by a significant amount making a lane go out of control even faster then normal. +70 and +150 gold might not seem like much but it can make a huge difference with the new item costs tied in. I've been going over some of the games I watch and play and the ones that seem to spiral completely out of control are those with split pushers gaining those 2nd tier towers. Beyond the fact that they are gaining global gold they are getting a significant additional boost of gold too. If this is the case protecting those 2nd tier towers is paramount to getting to late game. However, with them being so weak that is not an easy task. I am curious, do you think this sounds about right? it seems to hit the mark and I would be satisfied with this explanation. I might not be able to do much about it but it is nice to kind of single out why this league of snowballing has arrived.

Smithney4 votes

That is kind of similar to what I think: gold income is the likely cause of all this snowballing, supported by other causes like weak towers and improved item build paths. Either way, Riot should definitely shelf their pushing changes and add more avenues for lategame champions to become relevant.

Super Spooky1 votes

Yeah this is a pretty accurate way to look at it. We can't be completely sure that's all of it though. I honestly think Riot should revert the last patch and fix it up instead of (and I KNOW they are going to do this) adding small things to "fix" it, or just leaving it as is anyways.

StoryDuck2 votes

I don't think it needs to be reverted or anything but they should certainly take a look at how gold is accumulating and make some big adjustments to that.

royalpaste1 votes

if a tryn or a yasuo gets 1 or 2 kills the games over, they will get 100% crit and heal for days.

alasarcher4 votes

Its about minions mate. If you are ahead your minions get stronger than opponents.

StoryDuck19 votes

That hasn't been implemented yet. That will be put on in patch 5.23. Good thinking though because I originally thought the same thing.

alasarcher3 votes

{quoted}

That hasn't been implemented yet. That will be put on in patch 5.23. Good thinking though because I originally thought the same thing.

Oh ye, i noticed that just now. Hmm, then i havent got a clue why games are being so short.

StoryDuck2 votes

Me either. Hopefully someone does.

Retillin18 votes

Towers are weaker over all. (less effective HP) More gold in the game early. (quicker to 2nd item) AD champs have many buffs across the board. (ad champs kill towers fast)

Add it up, and it's just whomever gets a lead can start pushing objectives VERY fast.

RyzeRework1 votes

{quoted}

Me either. Hopefully someone does.

Because 5v5 all ad champions most of the time the reason games use to be late is because early mistakes weren't inpactful but now your being punished also noone is playing tanks

StoryDuck3 votes

Heh, I had a Taric game that was so much fun! All this AD is making him viable which makes me think outrageous thoughts. Truly, truly, truly, outrageous thoughts.

ihaveapotion1 votes

dont worry taric will get a rework and become the next flashy adc!! yay.

Timperman4 votes

Non of my games so far have been in less than 20 min. And those 20 win games were surrenders. My shortest proper win have been about 30 min

spavined1 votes

yea to me games have seemed to be longer than before as well

Xonra3 votes

Sadly I've had to completely change what champs I play. This account is my support account so not really important, but my other account is more like, top and mid, and I like playing champs that can scale a bit, and become monsters late.

Problem is, the game doesn't actually get to late. Games end basically at mid or late mid phase in the game, so scaling champs don't get a chance to scale.

I've seen many games end before people get to level 18, or full 6 items, etc. Basically early game champs are the way to go, because you start being aggressive early and taking towers, then you are snowballing so hard that you never make it to the point that champ would fall off.

Has honestly made it a lot more boring to me, personally.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Lopsided games never make it to late. Good, even games do, which is how it should be.

Randomonium3 votes

I think the root cause is towers being weaker. Getting a kill pretty much guarantees you can take at least half the tower's health if not completely knock down the tower. This means that not only do you get the kill gold but also the tower gold. This gold advantage allows your team to pick up the other outer towers pretty easily. I find that one or two kills can quickly snowball into the three outer turrets going down. That much of a gold lead that early in the game gives you complete control over dragon and herald as well as starve the jungler out of his own jungle because there are no outer turrets left. Since global gold is also up this allows a lot of champions to hit their mid game power spike much quicker, generally accelerating the game out of control.

Also, AD champions getting huge buffs also allows towers to be taken easier and the removal of mana pots makes it harder for AP champions to keep up their wave clear.

StoryDuck2 votes

Yeah, add on the fact that I recently learned that they upped the gold reward for taking towers too. +70 for each outer and +150 for each inner.

DeadJokr3 votes

im screwed this season if this stays like this all i play/main is late game champs item 3070

StoryDuck2 votes

I'm right there with you. I would really like to get a solid grip on how to get to the late game.

kirbyzama3 votes

There are many things contributing to short games but one thing that can be done to alleviate it is to play wave clear mages. A lot of people believe that because mage items were nerfed that mages are unplayable and that is untrue. Wave clear heavily and you can still stale games decently. Be careful however of turret dives. Like I said before this isn't a miracle cure as a snowball is still a snowball and if the enemy team is up enough they will still probably win pretty quick, plus mages not be unplayable like people say but they are indeed not in a favorable situation.

Honestly I don't dislike the shorter games, though it may be a bit extreme right now. Even games can still get late but I was so sick of teams losing for 30 minutes straight but being able to turtle in base till 50 min getting all those waves pushed at them to farm and win one fight for a win. Sure it was fun to win a comeback games like that but it happened too often I felt. Its unsatisfying for the team that did almost everything right.

Only Play Darius4 votes

To be fair nothing is fun about Ziggs clearing every single wave from behind is tier 2 turret either.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

There are many things contributing to short games but one thing that can be done to alleviate it is to play wave clear mages. A lot of people believe that because mage items were nerfed that mages are unplayable and that is untrue. Wave clear heavily and you can still stale games decently. Be careful however of turret dives. Like I said before this isn't a miracle cure as a snowball is still a snowball and if the enemy team is up enough they will still probably win pretty quick, plus mages not be unplayable like people say but they are indeed not in a favorable situation.

Honestly I don't dislike the shorter games, though it may be a bit extreme right now. Even games can still get late but I was so sick of teams losing for 30 minutes straight but being able to turtle in base till 50 min getting all those waves pushed at them to farm and win one fight for a win. Sure it was fun to win a comeback games like that but it happened too often I felt. Its unsatisfying for the team that did almost everything right.

I like to play Malzahar. He can clear waves pretty well, his mana problems aren't as bad like in other mages thanks to his E - and he can abuse Deathfire Touch very well. Also, his incredibly high base damage AND scaling allow him to forget getting Rabadon until later in the game and instead focus on items like item 3116 and item 3151 which are GODLY on him, people just didn't realized how strong Malzahar is now.

However, item 3139 has been buffed, which is unfortunate for Malz. Still, he is incredibly good as of now.

kirbyzama2 votes

Malz (and to a lesser extent Trundle) are champs I can't understand as to why they are never meta. The provide utility, are hard to counter, and counter a lot of what is strong in the game. The only thing I can think is that they don't fit into a competitive team comp and as a result players don't pick them up (people copy pro play after all). Also The Merc buff may hurt malz but considering how good crit items are delaying the adc's crit items even by 1200g is worth it I suppose.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Malz (and to a lesser extent Trundle) are champs I can't understand as to why they are never meta. The provide utility, are hard to counter, and counter a lot of what is strong in the game. The only thing I can think is that they don't fit into a competitive team comp and as a result players don't pick them up (people copy pro play after all). Also The Merc buff may hurt malz but considering how good crit items are delaying the adc's crit items even by 1200g is worth it I suppose.

They said that Riven couldn't fit into a competitive team comp, and look at the Worlds this year. I wouldn't be surprised if pros started to play Malzahar this year, unless Riot buffs other mages.

Really, the only reason why people don't play Malz is because pro players don't play him. There is a good side on that, I can enjoy carrying with him without the rist of Malz being nerfed because people don't think that he is OP.

That said, Trundle used to be meta back on the early/mid season 4.

BluePolarizer2 votes

In my opinion, skillfully closing out a game is the #1 thing that distinguishes bronzes and silvers, from plats and diamonds. It should not get easier for games to close out; it should be a learned skill.

kirbyzama2 votes

I was actually going to make a caveat in my comment about me playing at a high silver low gold and how games were harder to close out do to baron steals, failed tower dives, etc. I know exactly what your point is and what you are going for. We did see however even in high level competitive play that games were hard to close last season without baron. Defensive play was far more rewarding last season assuming even or close play. It should get easier to close a game if it forces teams to be more proactive, within reason of course. Also to make the obligatory #LCSBigPlays argument, blood baths are more fun in general than methodical play. I don't particularly want this to be the meta going forward but a happy medium can be made between the two and that's what preseason is for.

CoolKnightST2 votes

It actualy depends on the teamcomp. If you have a Janna, MasterYi and a waveclear mage like Ziggs. Games can still be stalled for a long time.

kaltenashes2 votes

Yasuo Tryndamere Graves late game? is this at 20 min?

StoryDuck1 votes

Heh, yeah 100% crit with 2 items is a bit much.

I can't say I've been having much trouble with Graves though. He has some really disgusting burst but I haven't found him too OP. I just really need to play around that want of his to get in my face.

kaltenashes1 votes

dodge his q,if you cant then MAKE SURE THAT YOU DODGE THE RETURNING BULLET at lvl 5 it deals just 350 AD + 120% bonus AD

A Miss Fortune1 votes

It only bursts you for most of your health, nothing big.

kaltenashes2 votes

its really a miss fortune

Puns of damage

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Yet people are still absolutely decimating with Tristana. Funny, it's almost like her early to mid game isn't nearly as weak as it should be for a late game hyper carry. Nah that can't be it.

StoryDuck2 votes

Marksmen in general all seem to be pretty even and unique, honestly that is the one part of this update I like. I haven't really seen any difference from a Twitch snowballing to a Graves snowballing, a TF snowballing, a Tristana snowballing or whatever ADC/AP snowballing. They are all snowballing out of control when they get a lead. I don't think this has as much to do with individual champions or items balance issues as a game pace balance issue. What I have been seeing is that whatever lane gets a lead first gets a HUGE lead and is neigh unstoppable unless it is addressed as soon as it happens.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Had multiple games already where after just 6 minutes all 5 teammembers were waiting on the fountain for the other team to push and finish the game because they lost 1-3 kills and a tower.

The snowballing is so hard people just wait on fountain to surrender now if opponent gets a 1500+ gold lead.

At least thats what is happening here in europe. not sure how things are in na servers.

Queue times are also starting to increase...

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

It's probably a gold issue. My first game on the new patch was 42 minutes, but looking at the matches I have before the preseason and after preseason when I compare games of about the same time the gold on less wealthy players seems to be higher. It's not that really fed players are getting more than they used to, but that the average players in the game are at higher gold totals early.

Basically even though cost was increased on a lot of items people are still further along in builds earlier I think, and so "late game" is getting earlier. If one team actually pushes their advantage and keeps the other team from getting much gold income then the winning team gets to end game faster and it feels like you can't stall as well as you could in the past.

Smithney2 votes

I'd place my bets on the way gold income is handled in the preseason plus the weakness of towers. Minions give more gold in the early game and the tier 2 items have increased effectiveness, which means it should be easier to reach power spikes and snowball off kills and objectives. This is just a hypothesis, however, somebody can dis/prove it mathematically if he or she would like.

EvilMerodach2 votes

On the plus side...Pantheon is kinda good right now. I like me some mandrops..

Though there's probably a lot more 'early game' champs I don't like than do like...but I do like the indirect buff to panth...

spavined2 votes

in my experience pretty much all the games i play are late game my last 4 games have been as follows: Brand-43 minutes Caitlyn-39 minutes Anivia-58 minutes riven-23 minutes while the riven game was short the other games were pretty long, i know i could just be a special snowflake but it seems like games are just really inconsistent compared to before.

StoryDuck2 votes

Actually, this goes with what a few others have been saying in that having some super wave clear could assist in getting to late game. Anivia, Brand are both super good at that.

Beerstein2 votes

Gold buff from tower, gold buff from minion, gold income item buff, tower defense nerf. All adds up to much quicker games. Once they add the minion thing in it's gonna go from worse to worst.

Also a lot more AD and people know how important taking towers is now so a lot of AD split pushing going on. Not seeing many 5v5 teamfights at all, it just doesn't get to that point.

Also don't underestimate bounty fees being split among a team. One guy trying to carry can be hard but when he inherently helps keep the team in the game then you see a power spike across the board.

DeynaTaggerung2 votes

Well Riot did increase death timers throughout the entire game. So when you make a mistake the other team has longer to capitalize on it. That's probably part of it.

Gold is coming in faster so better items come sooner and that will speed things up.

I'd image that since a number of champions still need to be tuned that overt power on one side allows them to not lose momentum even when they mess up.

Of course some it will be psychological too.

SnowFall2 votes

Might be worth having all flat runes now.

Tortunga2 votes

A combination of a lot weaker towers with much higher local gold (almost tripled for the inner ones) and to me something seems off xp wise. Dying in lane or having to recall never seemed to put you so far behind level wise as I can remember. Its pretty normal for a 2 level difference after 5/6 minutes.

And everyone seems to be playing snowball champions too, which speeds up it even more.

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