Suggestions to remove flash...

Arya Riven·Jan 27, 2017·61 votes·5,590 views

Blitz, Thresh and other champions with vital skillshots become god tier.

Ashe, Brand and any champion without innate mobility become trash tier.

Riven, Vayne and any champion with low CD dashes are stronger.

Aggressive plays disappear entirely turning the game into 60-70 minute farm'o'thons for hyper carries.

Frustrating moments that are impossible to countplay increase ult for example.

Exhaust likely becomes the most common summoner spell. Slowing team fights and skirmishes to a crawl.

Melee's who don't have innate ways of reaching ranged champions become troll picks.

Range champions with no ways of escaping mobile melees become troll picks.

Anybody with large AoE damage or CC becomes pick/ban.

People just complain that whatever next in line best summoner spell is now essential and Riot "forces" us to take it. So nothing is solved.

How exactly is this a better game?

Mind you this is only scratching the surface...

89 Comments

RebonackJan 27, 20178 votes

Find a way to make Rift something other than a snowbally shitshow and Flash won't be nearly as important. Flash is vital because one death can easily result in the game ending.

Arya RivenJan 27, 201714 votes

Flash was vital in S1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, long before this current meta existed. In fact, flash has been nerfed several times, it's range and cooldown.

RebonackJan 27, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-01-27T05:45:20.221+0000)

Flash was vital in S1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, long before this current meta existed. In fact, flash has been nerfed several times, it's range and cooldown.

Rift has always been a snowbally shitshow where one death at an inopportune moment can lose you the game. Believe me, I've been here since beta.

Arya RivenJan 27, 20176 votes

Believe me, I've been here since beta.

What does this have to do with anything? This is like people who say "Oh trust me mages are imbalanced in WoW, I played since Vanilla." So you played the game 13 years ago... and? That was 13 years ago.

Meaningless phrase aside no. Games have never been this one sides. But yes, League has always been fairly more slanted towards snowballing. I mean, it was literally created to be a more casual friendly, exciting, fast paced and mechanic based DOTA.

RebonackJan 27, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-27T05:53:24.977+0000)

What does this have to do with anything?

Has to do with me being here to see every single iteration of Summoner's Rift to come down the pipe.

And it has always been a snowbally shitshow. Some seasons are just more snowbally than others. Like right now.

Meaningless phrase aside no. Games have never been this one sides. But yes, League has always been fairly more slanted towards snowballing. I mean, it was literally created to be a more casual friendly, exciting, fast paced and mechanic based DOTA.

And the other side to it is the fact that, again, one death late can end the game. That's why Flash is absolutely vital on Rift. If you're being smart about it's use, then you're using it either to secure that vital kill or avoid being that vital kill. The pick-making (or breaking) ability of Flash is unmatched.

If Rift didn't snowball as hard, and if one death late game didn't mean the game is over provided the folks who have taken the advantage understand how to press said advantage, then Flash wouldn't be so vital. But that would require massive overhauls of how the game works. Simply due to the nature of Rift's objectives, snowballing is required to prevent the game from stagnating since there aren't any win conditions aside from destroying the enemy Nexus.

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 27, 20171 votes

ofc one death lategame can ruin your game. but since when is being killed at 40 mins being snowballed.

RebonackJan 28, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vape Naysh YalI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=000200000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-27T17:29:42.494+0000)

ofc one death lategame can ruin your game. but since when is being killed at 40 mins being snowballed.

It isn't. They're two sides to the same coin, two reasons why Flash is so important.

Early game you want Flash to secure (or deny) kills to get the snowball rolling.

Late game you want Flash to secure (or deny) that pick to gain a numerical advantage and take an objective.

Because of how much of an impact even a single kill can have in Rift, Flash will always be the most powerful Summoner Spell since it's the most versatile tool for securing or denying kills.

On other maps where single kills aren't as game-changing, Flash is optional.

LordGeovanniJan 27, 20171 votes

this current meta has existed from season 4 straight to now with the snowball. and season 3 and before i could not take flash and still do well now only lcs had to 100% flash all the time. now everyone has to except supposedly weak shaco who runs site ignite

Best princess EUJan 27, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-27T04:46:36.737+0000)

Blitz, Thresh and other champions with vital skillshots become god tier.

so they aren't god tier right now, because every 5 min you can flash their hook

LUL board

flash is cancer, everytime you try to do a play you have to think "does the enemy has flash or it's on cd?" and there is no way to know it in mid game , it should just be removed and nothing will ever change

the game isn't broken under level 12 where people don't have flash

SiNful JunglerJan 27, 20175 votes

so thinking before making a play makes the game cancer, it's a game that involve some thinking, does thay have a flash how to gank them if so, should i flash on this engage and risking losing the game if i failed, all of this make the game cancer XD, you want easier game go play Heroes of the Storminstade, instade of wanting to rob what makes this game unique and different from other mobas.

Backup4nowJan 27, 20175 votes

Everything you listed is either something that already has to be dealt with when flash is on CD, something that is an unfairly immense advantage to the party with more opportune flashes off CD, something that shouldn't exist in the first place like those checkmate scenarios or immobile vs. mobile, or just not determinable with the current evidence at hand.

For example, aggressive plays disappear? More like, they appear far more often because you don't have to worry about the ranged character flashing out of melee range and into a safe zone, then shooting your back as you're forced to retreat. See, I can argue for the opposite side with reason and logic, but it's still something we need to see to believe.

Also, not just flash, but all summoners should be removed.

ninjaroxasJan 27, 20172 votes

So you want league to become dota

Spaceman5pffJan 27, 20175 votes

I disagree with the statement of Ashe becoming garbage.

Her Arrow becomes even more impactful PLUS you can pick a TahmKench Bard Braum Thresh Lulu to help keep her safe.

Sure, some champs would become bad, but others would become good. Tier lists change all the time.

Ale non è maleJan 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with the statement of Ashe becoming garbage.

Her Arrow becomes even more impactful PLUS you can pick a to help keep her safe.

Sure, some champs would become bad, but others would become good. Tier lists change all the time.

Gank Ashe with 3 people spread out. Arrow can hit only 1 person. Bye bye Ashe

Spaceman5pffJan 27, 20173 votes

The arrow isn't about escaping ganks.

It is about making picks.

AMYS GRAVEJan 27, 20174 votes

You're assuming that the only thing that would have to change is the removal of flash, which is nothing but a strawman. I don't really care one way or the other but the game could in principle be balanced after flash is removed to avoid all of the problems you posed. It would cuck things up for a while for sure, but flash isn't 100% integral to the balanceability of the game in the long term.

ninjaroxasJan 27, 20171 votes

That's true but they have too look at pretty much every champ and item after that

Ben SharpioJan 27, 20173 votes

move flash/exhaust to items

dunder killJan 27, 201711 votes

Go play DotA then

Arya RivenJan 27, 201725 votes

Sure, let's make it 100% essential that everyone in the game purchase the same item as their first purchase.

JefftiffyJan 27, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-01-27T05:37:46.143+0000)

Sure, let's make it 100% essential that everyone in the game purchase the same item as their first purchase.

item 1001 ? Your point?

AtanchanJan 27, 20179 votes

I don't think making Flash cost 300g would really change anything at all, aside from maybe make supports a lot sadder and shitting up late game scaling.

dunder killJan 27, 20174 votes

buying boots as a first item is horrible. The only exception is like if you're laning against a Karthus

48983507DEL1Jan 27, 20171 votes

Cassiopeia

SteamedSuperiorJan 27, 20171 votes

That is even dumber. That would make you use one of your VERY valuable slots. They don't need to put 2 items into the game that would be the best to buy like boots. Then that is 2 slots taken up.

LordGeovanniJan 27, 20171 votes

right but mages dont all build item 3157 any more like they said was gonna happen but be ineffeicent

SteamedSuperiorFeb 1, 20171 votes

No matter what role you play you most of the time take flash. That item would be almost required for any champion or any situation for that matter. Making the value of that item that is replacing flash not very optional. It's almost mandatory

LordGeovanniFeb 2, 20171 votes

people take flash 98% of the time because nothing is better than it so they are essentially not tradeing anything if people have to trade an item slot for flash then they trade dps or defense and that is preferable if every adc and mage takes the flash item tanks can then not take the flash item and live alittle longer than getting 3-4 shot before they even reach in range of the enemy

Ok sure but whyJan 27, 20173 votes

They should just fix every single champ so no one will ever need flash to win fights

Arya RivenJan 27, 20176 votes

Rework literally every champion in the game and make it unrecognizable to players.

Keep summoner spell that is only 'problematic' because some hipsters want to use clarity.

WinTheWarOnPantsJan 27, 20173 votes

I was avidly against removing flash for awhile, but after thinking about it a bit i would be up for trying a flashless league. I think summoner 6 might need to go as well if you removed flash, but heck i definitely wouldn't miss that one personally.

WoonStruckJan 27, 20173 votes

Ghost would definitely have to go if Flash were removed.

Exhaust too, for that matter. Although, Exhaust should be removed whether or not Flash is. Or at least remove the slow and shred from it.

JorenciceJan 27, 20173 votes

Then what do you want to have? Youve literally removed the 3 strongest (olay ghost is shit) summoners?

I bet ull be here after a year complaining how everyone takes ignite.

LegitBacon66Jan 27, 20172 votes

Sidestep though

BlakiepugJan 27, 20172 votes

Who is arguing for Flash to be removed? I've seen many argue it should be nerfed but not flat out removed....

SpârkyJan 27, 20173 votes

I've seen quite a few posts about removing flash other than this one. Just saying. I personally think that flash should just get like a 30 second cd increase and we are fine with it.

BlakiepugJan 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=PG Sparky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7okt9QU,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-01-27T14:53:29.436+0000)

I've seen quite a few posts about removing flash other than this one. Just saying. I personally think that flash should just get like a 30 second cd increase and we are fine with it.

I like this idea. I get that people love Flash but I think it could definitely use a CD increase to some degree so that it is not up every fight like it is right now. As cool as Flash is, no one should be 100% reliant on it.

SpârkyJan 28, 20172 votes

I also think low elo people need to learn how to play around flashes used as well.

WinTheWarOnPantsJan 27, 20172 votes

how would you Nerf flash? If you reduce the flash distance or increase the CD anymore it would be better to just remove it. Alot of things are balanced around flash like OP listed.

HollowMimicJan 27, 20172 votes

Just to cover most people's curiosity (mine as well); I'd suggest to have just 1 PBE cycle without Flash, see how it goes and then never talk about removing it again xP

101100111000Jan 27, 20172 votes

Because all of the things who highlighted are precisely because Riot designed around everyone having flash.

Could you imagine how much more balanced this game would be if it weren't designed around everyone having a random blink crutch every 5 minutes? You'd actually be able to balance abilities for being used properly rather than just "flash-combo-dead" crap you see happening frequently.

This game would've been much better off if Flash had been removed earlier.

Ale non è maleJan 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Because all of the things who highlighted are precisely because Riot designed around everyone having flash.

Could you imagine how much more balanced this game would be if it weren't designed around everyone having a random blink crutch every 5 minutes? You'd actually be able to balance abilities for being used properly rather than just "flash-combo-dead" crap you see happening frequently.

This game would've been much better off if Flash had been removed earlier.

LOL To balance mobility without flash you should just put the mobility abilities on so high cooldown that you would basically delete mobility itself, because in any other situation the champ with them would be much stronger than the ones without access to mobility And if you got to that point you should compensate the loss of mobility on those champs that relied on it with higher damage/tankiness/sustain, which basically make it even harder to balance the game

People talking without even thinking about, lel, eliminate Flash would take years and years to even come close to actual level of balance...At that point Riot should rather scrap League and start League 2

101100111000Jan 27, 20172 votes

Gee, it's almost like they'd have to do work to fix something that they had already considered a problem several years ago. Crazy right?

The mobility that champions have now is only justified against the context of immobile champions because the immobile ones have flash.

But so do mobile champions.

Immobile champions get shit on either way. Don't pretend like removing flash would actually remove the paradigm of mobility's superiority in any context. What removing flash would do is allow for mobility to be truly balanced without crutch design mechanics interfering with balance choices.

And it doesn't make it harder to balance League. Removing things from the game makes it EASIER to balance because that means there are less factors to account for in champion balancing.

And it's actually fairly easy to simply do an entire rebalance of the game focused on flash removal.

Repeat after me:

Pre-Season 8 Update - A Rift Without Flash

This game already goes through half cycles of class updates that constantly throw this game' balance out the window anyway. Spending their updating time on something like this would actually be fairly system in that regard, because gameplay styles don't actually change. You're not revamping a class of champions, you're revamping a portion of the summoner spell system.

Ale non è maleJan 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Gee, it's almost like they'd have to do work to fix something that they had already considered a problem several years ago. Crazy right?

This game already goes through half cycles of class updates that constantly throw this game' balance out the window anyway. Spending their updating time on something like this would actually be fairly system in that regard, because gameplay styles don't actually change. You're not revamping a class of champions, you're revamping a portion of the summoner spell system.

Geez, you are stupid

You are not revamping a class of champions, you are revamping ALL the classes of champions, because ALL the classes gets affected in different ways

They can't just "fix" something, they have to start from scratch

101100111000Jan 27, 20171 votes

No, you are NOT revamping every champion. You are not changing the way a single champion's kit works by removing flash. And if you do, that just means the champion's design was inherently bad to begin with.

No champion's kit viability should even need to rely on flash or ANY summoner spell.

They have internal testers.

They have a Public Beta.

And don't pretend like just "fixing" something is the solution here, none of their updates have been completely adequate in addressing the issues they wanted to solve, and they constantly do updates, nerfs, and buffs that specifically address these flaws and oversights. To tell me that you could not balance League around Flash because it'd take too long is benign and defeatist. They can definitely do it, have considered it before, and simply chose not to.

Ale non è maleJan 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You are not changing the way a single champion's kit works by removing flash.

That's the idiocy of the day, just look at Annie R as the easiest and most immediate example

It is not worthy to debate with someone if that one can't even accept basic facts. Flash change the way a ton of champ kit works

To say if it is doable or not, good or not to do, worthy or not is a subsequent thing...but it would definitively mean start from the scratch.

So it wouldn't be a fix, it would be start from the scratch. Period. It is a not a matter for PBE anymore, it would mean kill League and create "League 2"

101100111000Jan 27, 20171 votes

Annie's flash ult is a cheese, most people already consider it cancerous as fuck and you want to use her as an example of why Flash is necessary? Jesus Christ.

Flash does NOT change the way a champion kit works. A champion kit is always the same champion kit whether they have flash or not. Flash just changes how you use the kit outside of its intended parameters and creates (sometimes uncounterable) abuse case. Annie is case in point on why Flash is unhealthy.

It does not mean start from scratch. You just keep saying that to justify calling other people stupid for wanting flash remove. You quite frankly sound like an ass because of it.

Ale non è maleJan 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Annie's flash ult is a cheese, most people already consider it cancerous as fuck and you want to use her as an example of why Flash is necessary? Jesus Christ.

Flash does NOT change the way a champion kit works. A champion kit is always the same champion kit whether they have flash or not. Flash just changes how you use the kit outside of its intended parameters and creates (sometimes uncounterable) abuse case. Annie is case in point on why Flash is unhealthy.

It does not mean start from scratch. You just keep saying that to justify calling other people stupid for wanting flash remove. You quite frankly sound like an ass because of it.

It is pointless to debate with someone that can't debate because do not even agree to start from the basic postulates of a discussion. And I call in this discussion stupid people that purposedly refuse to accept that remove flash means HUGE changes and start from the scratch, regardles of any other further/subsequent arguments you can have

And I'll explain you getting back to Annie example, since she has a pretty basic kit and it is easy to explain the concept...

Is Annie flash-ult a cheese tactic? Can it be considered cancerous? I guess you could think that the answer is yes, while other would think no...I mean, it is fine that people can disagree

BUT whatever you think about it, it does not change the fact that actually this combo exist, and this has HUGE implication not only on Annie balance, but on overall champ balance. Flash add to her kit a lot of complexity, because it allows plays otherwise impossible and gave a way to counter comps that would impossible to beat for her, leading to the actual philoposphy design where she can't have too strong of power budget in her spells because you have to keep in mind that she can do also a Flash+ult stun combo

Let's say we remove summoner 4 now. _Annie can be obviously balanced around the lack of Flash summoner spell. _ What you are obviously ignoring is: HOW can Annie be balanced for the lack of Flash? With no Flash available, she can only operate in her small range of her spells, because she is a sitting duck against any champ with abilities that outrange the 625 range of her spells and can poke/harass her down to death At this point, the only way she can be balanced for the lack of Flash is by making her far stronger in her range, which make up for her being absolutely useless out of the range. You have to put all her actual abilities on steroid number-wise

And up to this point, well, there would still be no problem in removing FLASH BUT NOW; what does happen to melee champs, especially immobile ones? On-steroid-Annie is unstoppable in her range with her guarantee stun and more damage and damage reduction across the boards. How can Melee fight at this point? Now you got to give HUGE steroids on melee champs, because otherwise those are not only put in shambles by the actual long range poke/harass, but they can't even hope to defeat Annie that has total control on that 625 range against them

So, let's give melee champs this huge steroids across the boards... now they are immune to long range poke/harass...and thse are the immobile, then there are the mobile melee champs, and you got to find a way for these poke champs to get useful against all those cjampions

And so on and on and on and on, embracing this design philosophy when you have to make anyone broken because they are balanced by the presence of very hard counters ** CONGRATULATIONS!!! NOW YOU HAVE EXACTLY DOTA ON A LEAGUE SKIN!!!**

How the hell could you still argue that removing Flash would not mean start from the scratch???? The thing is not if it is virtually possible to balance league or not, the thing is that the work needed to do that would be so big and so different that would basically creat a brand new game aka start from scratch...which is exactly the concept I was explaining

You can't seriously talking about removing Flash without admitting/understanding the amount of changes it would produce and the amount of time and work needed to figure things eventually out, and you can't be taken seriously by other people if you don't accept that. PERIOD.

Now, if your goal is that you want League following DotA style...well, why don't just play just instead? I mean, you yet have the game you desire yet available, and to each his own, no? Or why don't just play both?

WoonStruckJan 27, 20171 votes

You act like Flash is always off CD.

News flash (no pun intended): Its got a 5 minute CD. If you think balance of the game revolves around that, you're pretty foolish.

JorenciceJan 27, 20177 votes

But it does... riot has always balanced around flash.

Honestly they might as well give everyone 3 summoner slots and make flash permanent.