League of Legends, then vs now

Arya Riven··363 votes·12,712 views

#First some clarity

Seems a lot of nostalgia goggles are blurring the issues with the game, resulting in a lot of sloppy threads about why 'League is so bad now'.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree the game is in a bad state right now, and that games are decided way too early. But before we address the problems, let's get the weeds out of the garden.

1: "It's that champion over there"! No, it actually isn't. Yes, Jayce is OP, Camille was a poor release and Vi has been damn annoying in jungle recently. With nerfs to her competition Riven is becoming too strong and Yasuo is still annoying.

Meanwhile back in ye 'ol days Morde was considered OP for two years straight, Tryndamere was an unstoppable two shotting machine, Jax got one item and won the game and nobody wanted to ever see Shaco in a game.

Nothing has changed here. Unfortunately as long as there are champions in the game, some will annoy us and some will be stronger picks than ever. Even before S1 there were 'must picks' and 'worthless picks'. And while Riot attempts to achieve nirvana in champion balance, constant patching, updating, new releases and rebalancing make true balance impossible, even if it is a final goal.

Take away power from Darius and Jayce? Oh look, Riven and Fiora are suddenly strong. Take power from them? Oh look, Kennen and Rumble are suddenly strong. etc.

No, it isn't any specific champion bringing the game down. Nor any specific group of champions. OP picks have always existed, other problems with the game are merely amplifying emotions regarding overpowered champion picks and make them seem more intense.

2: "First tower blood caused this!" No, first tower blood was probably one of the smallest contributions to this. It increased the win rate by first tower taken by 1.25%. Confirmed by Riot AND third party website LeagueOfGraphs. Yes, it did, ever-so-slightly amplify leads. But the problem was the snowball existed pre-first tower, to the point where the team taking the first tower was already assured to win. The tiny dump of gold into champion's pockets for taking it didn't cause the 72% win rate for first tower taken, pre-existing snowball caused this.

3: "Masteries caused this!" Partially true, but masteries themselves have always existed, so if you liked Season 1-2-3-4-5-6 then them existing is not the problem. Same can be said for runes.

4: "You can get more AD/AP than ever!" Caitlyn, Shaco and Draven crits of 1000+ happened in S3. Actually, the amount of AD and especially AP on items has gone down. These stats use to be more valuable. I remember playing Brand in S2 and stacking 800AP regularly in order to one combo people. This isn't the problem, as I now one combo people with 300AP.

5: "Tanks never die! Tanks die too fast!" You are contradicting yourself community. I will say this. If feels like true tanks should survive a bit longer, people like Sejauni and Leona. However this is more individual tuning as Sion and Maokai seem to survive long enough and people like Poppy survive way too long. This isn't a systemic class issue but an individual champion tuning and meta issue. However if it makes you feel better, tanks are being reworked in the mid-year-update so I have heard.

However, if you are talking about "tanks", such as Juggernauts like Darius and Shyvana or Divers like Vi and Hecarim. Who when fed become seemingly unkillable, then I could agree that their 'ahead' could be toned down a little and their 'behind' could be toned up a bit to make them less feast/famine. But in general this again comes to individual champion tuning. Because there are some Juggernauts and Divers who are utter shit right now as well.

And again, neither of these things are why games are so short and frustrating.

6: "(Insert skirmisher here) has a toxic design because they do well when ahead, this ruined the game!" As opposed to being ranged and doing too much damage when fed like mages and marksmen? Skirmishers: Ekko Fiora Jax MasterYi Riven Tryndamere Yasuo Are a melee carry class, when ahead they are meant to snowball, just like Marksman, Mages and Assassins. They trade being ranged for being mobile. Which makes them more feast/famine as they must go all out in team fights and risk dying, but when they succeed they cleanup just like a fed Twitch or Ziggs. They are balanced to win most 1v1 fights in melee range because they have to be in melee range to do it. Individually there are some who are too strong, and some who are not so strong at this time. But overall they objectively are doing what they are suppose to.

Before Skirmisher's existed, there were melee ADCs back in ye 'ol days of glory. Who did essentially the same thing but were more 'right clicky'. They are not responsible for the current issues with the game.

7: "Mages in every lane!" A symptom not a disease. This is a fault of the current meta, base damages, damage inflation, gold distribution and exp functionality. More on that below.

#What is at fault?

1: Back to masteries Yes, they are partly at fault, but not for existing. Rather for each individual mastery holding so much power. While games use to have masteries that did things like "Your fireball now has +1% crit chance" they now have masteries like "Your fireball now chains to up to 2 additional enemies and if it crits they are all stunned".

This oddly isn't just something I see in League, but also in a lot of MMOs. Masteries have received bloated power. and drastically affect gameplay style. I think it is because the era of nerds comparing a bonus 2% attack speed for 1.5 seconds after crits to a bonus 1% attack speed static, are being forgotten by game creators. As such, even passive masteries have to be 'interesting' and have bloated power.

So instead of getting a mastery that is something like http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Executioner_(Season_Two_Mastery) as a final mastery point. We get http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Merciless_(Season_2016_Mastery) as a third tier mastery. That is the effect of a final mastery moved to one anybody can pick up even if they go into the other two trees.

Because of this kind of 'move of power' among masteries, and the introduction of keystones and new masteries, has given a massive boost to the power of masteries. This is passive power, the problem with this kind of power on masteries, is that it is not earned 'in game'. It doesn't cost gold, you don't have to accumulate a lead to earn it, it is just there from spawn. This makes early game much more toxic and mistakes much more devastating.

While conversely some of the tank masteries introduced to counter them, has done the opposite and made the game too safe for select Divers, Juggernauts and Tanks.

Masteries MUST be scaled back to minor choices for how you want to boost your champion. Or all masteries could be made to scale with your level(likely a balance nightmare, but would be awesome if they worked it out) or early game will never feel good again.

2: Pathetic Towers First tower blood would not even be problematic, if it wasn't for the fact that backing to base once can basically cost you the first tower if not the game. As somebody who plays a lot of Riven top lane, this season teleport isn't mandatory for map pressure, roaming or teleport ganks. It is necessary just to make sure that if Jayce or Fiora force me to back early I don't lose so much minion exp/gold and tower health that the lane is an automatic loss.

Towers being weak does a few things. It makes any flashy or cool plays, or aggressive tactics, far too risky. Meaning people play more passive than ever in lanes. Which of course gives way too much power to the only role that can still play aggressive, the Jungle. Suddenly one gank, sometimes even just burning a little HP or a single of the 4 summoner spells bot lane. Means that lane has lost their first tower. Because lanes cannot fight to give themselves an advantage or they risk losing their tower.

Weak towers also makes it so non-interactive tactics, such as split pushing, are objectively better than big risk tactics, like team fights.

Towers should be sieged by minions, with champion assistance. Split pushing should be an optional tactic not a standard. And a team sieging a tower shouldn't be able to kill it without hardly interacting with the defending team. My suggestion would be to buff towers Amor and MR against champions. And increase their overall HP a little. DPS champions late game can DPS them down still, champions with good AP can still chunk them late game and tanks can still tank tower shots. But just having 2 people present shouldn't automatically mean free tower before anybody can react.

I might also suggest making towers either shoot faster for smaller but more rapid doses of damage and/or re-add laser towers. This way more mobile champions like Hecarim and Lee Sin do not automatically get out without taking any shots.

I could make more drastic suggestions about towers but these two would be a good start.

3: Gold and Experience At this point, people have the game so 'figured out' and snowballing is so powerful, damage so high. That even being half an item, or a single level behind an enemy, means you have lost. Part of this is support gold, I love supports, and real supports such as Soraka, Leona, Lulu, Braum, certainly deserved more gold so they could build items. The problem is, the lack of having to buy wards and the surplus of gold from gold generation items and masteries. Means champions like Brand, Annie and Ziggs can go bot lane as supports. Some people say this is 'healthy' and 'awesome'. But then are the same people who complain there is too much damage in the game . . . Supports being a high damage role means you have taken one of only two low damage roles in the game - support and tank - and handed them a flame thrower. I get Riot is heavily focused on queue times. But taking a team with 2 high damage champions, 1 mid tier damage champion and 2 low damage champions. And making them now have 3 high damage champions, 1 mid tier damage champion and 1 low tier damage champion. Adds a huge amount of damage inflation. Potentially more than masteries do.

On top of this, high kill gold, the value of farm that people are realizing, lower passive gold, ALL tower kill gold, dragon gold and massive increase to the exp and gold in the jungle. Have made it so once your enemy has a small lead, they can press that to not a large lead, but a titanic lead. Meaning there is no coming back. The snowball just rolls down mid lane and crashes right into your Nexus.

I don't have a direct solution for mage supports. But gold and exp active rewards being so high are likely the largest contributor to the snowball in the game. Obviously leads need to exist, and the leading team needs the opportunity to expand their lead and close out. But it is too much at the moment. Some suggestions would be adding passive exp and slightly lowering minion/kill/camp exp while increasing passive gold gen while lowering kill gold ever so slightly. These would have to be small changes, to prevent leads from becoming useless. Another possible solution would be just to decrease gold value of people who have died a lot even more, and make them reach the minimum faster, and slightly boost shutdown gold.

I am sure the boards/Riot could come up with more eloquent solutions. But keep in mind, lowering the punishment for taking risks, means low elo will be less toxic, high elo will take more risks, and LCS will likely be more exciting. As taking risks won't become the end of the world.

The best thing about passive gold/exp gen is they encourage roaming tactics as missing 3 minions no longer loses the lane.

4: Cooldown Reduction Because I love low cooldowns(urf anyone?), I wouldn't mind keeping all the CDR in the game. If Riot could deflate snowballing and overall damage, League could be more spammy without being Toxic. But one of the fastest ways to reduce overall snowball and damage inflation in the game, would be to remove a lot of the CDR items have been given, potentially rework the CDR mastery as well. A lot of champions who were otherwise fine are now way too spammy, while oddly enough Tanks(not Divers or Juggernauts), have a hard time accessing their best stat.

Subsequently if this made Basic Attack champions stronger perhaps Attack Speed and Crit could be look at as well.

Personally I'd rather keep the CDR and Attack speed in the game, and balance the game around it being there. But if that is not possible, or unwanted it would be a quick route to Nirvana.

5: Base Damage/Base Stats Base damage, it is meant to be 'anti-snowball' right? Because unlike scaling you cannot actively increase it, so when people are ahead with lots of items it doesn't increase, right? WRONG! Base damages are increased by champion level. Fighters, Juggernauts, Tanks and other non-carries thrive off of levels, because it increases their high base stats, but also gives them more points into abilities. For them this means increased base damage, increase utilities and decreased cooldowns(to go with all that CDR they buy). Is this a problem? No, getting a level on Darius as meant to be as rewarding as buying an item component on Ashe. The problem comes when certain outliers have TOO much in their base stats/damages, such as Poppy, or when people who shouldn't really have base damages have too much(see mage supports) or some carries who just get more base stats and damage than they should, or more in-kit-power to amplify the stats they already have going for them.

In the case of Fighters, Juggernauts and Tanks it is a matter of tuning. For mages it is an identity crisis. See mages use to scale really well with level, which is why they took the solo lane mid, just as fighters did for top. The problem is, they also scale well off of items, like a carry does. A mage can scale in two different ways. This means mages can essentially go into any role and do well. Which is why we have mage supports, who contribute to damage inflation. But it also means a mage ahead of the enemy mage, is ahead in TWO ways. This applies to all classes, but more to mages than anybody. Recently, this problem has been creeping into Fighters, Tanks and Juggernauts as they have gained better items and the meta shifted.

Don't get me wrong, the game can be balanced with this in mind. But base damage and base stats are some of the most deceptively powerful things in the game. And are largely responsible for many of the current problems in League. Champions who should have better base stats don't and therefore are trash even if their abilities are fine. And champions who shouldn't have good base damages/stats have too much, so even if their abilities are fine, they tend to be way too strong.

6: Kits and Items than amplify power This is a brief one, but more and more I have been seeing utilities, steroids and abilities in kits and items that amplify existing damage and stats. This again goes back to "I use to have 800AP to one shot people now I do it with 300AP". These kind of kits and items MIGHT be acceptable if the snowball overall is reduced and damage in general is scaled back. Back in the day it was just DFG and a few select abilities. But nowadays the amount of items that give more scaling to your kit, the amount of kits that just get huge boosts to their benefits from items, and the way they interact with masteries and runes, are just absurd.

#Conclusion The problem isn't one thing, it is a cumulative stacking of multiple things. Let's make sure we assign blame correctly so the problem can be fixed. If you have anything to add, any criticisms of my stances or any ideas on fixes, put them below. Thank you for reading.

299 Upvote update Riven loves you all too :] thank you all for the support. Imma go apply for rito games job now(jk).

177 Comments

AMYS GRAVE72 votes

I am sure the boards/Riot could come up with more eloquent solutions. But keep in mind, lowering the punishment for taking risks, means low elo will be less toxic, high elo will take more risks, and LCS will likely be more exciting. As taking risks won't become the end of the world.

Holy shit this!

EDIT: how do i have the top voted comment with so many other good better comments in this discussion?

Nameless Voice6 votes

Just on this point, I'd draw a distinction between long-term and short-term punishments.

Right now, we have too much of the one and (often) not enough of the other, when it should be the other way around.

If a player makes a mistake and dies, it shouldn't mean that the game is almost impossible to win because the enemy team will snowball.

However, if a player makes a major mistake, then it should very likely result in them dying or being otherwise seriously inconvenienced by that mistake. It's been something of a recurring theme with certain kinds of champions, especially recently, that they have tons of ways of escaping sticky situations that they might find themselves in, which feels really unfair for their opponents if they are not also playing a "free escape" champion. There's a reason why a lot of the champions with safety nets (e.g. Lee Sin, Ekko, LeBlanc, Zed) are often highly hated when they are popular.

Arya Riven4 votes

Yes. But champions with escapes quite often lack other things. Such as tankiness as one example. Let's take Shyvana and Riven.

Both use a leap to get in. One shot your carry. Now if Riven is CC'd she dies. If not she can use E to escape if she didn't use it in her engage combo. Shyvana on the other hand cannot just leap out. But also can take 2-3x the damage Riven can before dying. Meaning often she can just walk out.

Some bypass this. Like Lee Sin. Granted he also falls off late game. But sonce late game doesn't exist he never falls off. That is a tuning and meta issue. But in general champions with a free way out need a free way out.

Ultimate Deadpoo51 votes

A well made, well reasoned explanation without stupid reasoning. Have my upvote.

Arya Riven35 votes

Appreciated. I just want to make League fun again. I love this game.

Ravenous Howls43 votes

I actually read the whole thing. I encourage other to as well. This is well written and extremely detailed with concise, clear points about each issue outlined. Well done m8!

Arya Riven16 votes

Thank you for reading. I tried to be very well worded in it. So the point wouldn't fall on deaf ears. My only concern is the overall health of League. I love playing the game and playing my champion. But recently it is very frustrating.

Ravenous Howls12 votes

Hey M8 I give credit where it is due! I love the game as well and have been playing pretty consistently since the release of Varus and I've seen everything that you detailed in one form or another. Especially b/c I love my juggernauts and wardens the game has become even more difficult for me due to the large amount of free power and mobility in the game.

Oumi21 votes

You forget comebacks were more possible back in the day too due to bounties being higher. Example: If a person was legendary and was shut down it was a 1000g bounty.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

Bounties give a large amount of gold still, just to the team, rather than dumping it on one person.

Yasuicide16 votes

[deleted]

Arya Riven17 votes

Even a Yasuo player can get mine ;P

Ravenous Howls12 votes

{quoted}

Perfect dude! You say it so damn perfect and true. Even you're riven main you get my upvote :)

Agreed! despite that the OP is a filthy Riven Main I can't help but be wowed by this well worded explanation. LMFAO!

Divewing14 votes

Just an add on: Totally boning vision access for 60/80% of the team has made ganking too easy with insufficient means to tactically counter/respond/prepare for it because playing safe will only work until the ahead team groups and shoves a lane that can't be defended.

TyrekGoldenspear13 votes

+1. Lovely post.

Arya Riven10 votes

Hi Tyrek. I see you much. Thankyou for coming. :)

TyrekGoldenspear11 votes

I hang out around the boards a lot when I'm not playing.

No problem; I like to encourage posts like this that don't follow the endless cycle of complaining on the boards.

AmazoX13 votes

Up voted. We have the same icon

sobi99912 votes

I read it all! Very informative thread and really points out the key factors of high damage meta that we have today. I think most of the toxic in the game is from snowballing as one mistake of an ally causes the rest of the team to suffer. I would say reducing kill gold and increasing passive gold is a very very good suggestion. Also and without much though i would make towers stronger (especially bot) to reduce ganks/snowball again and so that games don't end in 10mins.

I just want to play leagues where it is not the end of the world for the whole team if one person takes a risk or gives 3 kills to the top/adc. So basically the reward system should be undertuned i believe and this should be approached in a subtle way so that it doesn't make the game too passive. Good job with the post sir!

Slich Bissi12 votes

I think a large part of this is the same reason people have nostaliga goggles for "Vanilla WoW" - there isn't anymore exploration or discovery. When LoL first began there was literally no meta. Barely anyone jungled and if you did it was "different." People just came up with lanes that had synergy like Trundle+Trynamere bot lane - slow them with pillar and Tryndamere W and then beat on them.

It was fun, experimenting and full of wacky discovery. Playing champions "wrong" could lead to epic results. AP Master YI, AD Anivia using her kit to support attack damaging them to death rather than nuking, and other oddities were fun.

The game is so formulaic now. It's almost science. If you deviate from the formula you are a heretic. There's nothing left to be discovered. There's nothing new. You just plug in the proper equation and compute victory. There's no wild cards, surprises or gimmicks. It's all very standard, very vanilla, very...boring.

Out of 150 champions these 20 are in /every game/ CONSTANTLY. They ALWAYS go to THIS lane, every single time no exceptions. They always build THIS build. Sometimes it's decided as early as drafting phase. It's just not spontaneous and fun and wacky and weird with some oddball spin.

Everything has been neutered too. Whichever team is ahead is COLLECTIVELY ahead - like Heroes of the Storm. There's no more one man carries. You can't get ultra super powered Evelynn to one shot a whole team from the dark, or a Mordekaiser huehuehueing his way down mid as an unstoppable iron fortress by himself.

Just one whole team beats another whole team and it's extremely one sided. It's become sterile, stale and dull. There's no more excitement. It's just a recipe like baking a cake.

That's why there's nostalgia goggles for "the old days" - people want the weird and unexpected to happen and it simply doesn't.

Segius11 votes

Very Logical and well thought out ^ Upvoted!

Arya Riven8 votes

I appreciate it. I hope you have fun in game.

HongChongDong11 votes

Honestly I was never good at making well put together posts like these, so I think any points I made became mute in some peoples eyes. Including Riot's if they even seen my posts.

Point is, you managed to make a well thought out and well made post based on our similar views when I couldn't. Thank you my brother.

Swaid9 votes

What you describe feels like accurate symptoms to the overall cause of League's problems and I agree with you.

As someone who plays Juggernauts almost exclusively, I don't often feel threatened by towers and view them as piñatas full of gold rather then a tangible obstacle.

LichKing2349 votes

really i saw them as back scrachers full of gold

MonkeyMadness8 votes

I agree with most of this, well written. However, I must disagree with your statement on balance: the game was very close to "perfect" balance during ~season 5, at least in solo queue. It was feasible to see virtually any champion picked or banned. Granted, there were still some champs that were picked/banned more often than others, but it felt like a true meta, not a mandatory core of champs that are absolutely required to be picked or banned. Now, if you don't pick or ban from the core of roughly 20-30 champs (dependent on rank), you are going to have a bad time.

I also find the current state of CDR to be entirely ironic. A few seasons ago, back when they changed Black Cleaver to it's current state by adding cdr to it and the armor shred mechanic, Riot decided that far too many champs were maxing out their cdr simply by building "standard" items, and they wanted the CDR stat to be more locked behind specific builds tailored to access the stat. Now, almost every mage item grants 10% cdr, Black Cleaver is back up to 20%, Trinity force got a 20% cdr buff, and it's rather popular to run cdr blues on many champs. Basically, Riot entirely contradicted themselves (seems like a frequent occurrence).

One last point, and this one really irks me:

I get Riot is heavily focused on queue times

To the point where they have willingly increased toxicity to unheard of levels. Autofill serves literally 0 purpose in any game below mid/low plat (that's where I was last season, never had a queue longer than 5 minutes, even at off-peak hours). It makes games infinitely more toxic while shaving a few seconds at most from most queues (however, considering that dodges are at legendary highs atm, many people complain that it actually takes longer to get into a game now). Now, I am a firm believer that everyone should have the ability to play any role in a pinch (maybe I'm old fashioned that way, but 4 years of pick-order determining your role pretty much forced everyone to learn support or accept their bronze rating), but clearly the community is suffering from this system, and so far Riot has done nothing (correct that if I'm wrong, I admit I haven't been able to keep up with Rito news in the past couple weeks).

Phyuq Yiu7 votes

I read "First some clarity" Immediately start scrolling down yelling WHOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAA

rtbf2256182416 votes

I think it is because the era of nerds comparing a bonus 2% attack speed for 1.5 seconds after crits to a bonus 1% attack.

http://image.prntscr.com/image/66a39633dd42486580dd2b8200e64f3f.png

By the way, Masteries existed before but only now they are out of proportion. They existed with minor buffs as you suggested, not game warping advantages.

zlumpy5 votes

Just wanna say taking all the "invisible" benefits out via removing auras and putting them into "visible" stats just ended up benefiting some champs more than others. Losing all that team MR because auras have been removed results in a lot more damage. Sure an active can stop just as much but what if you lag? Miss click? Just flat out time it wrong? Auras added a different strategy that is very much needed in any moba.

Also too many options have been removed. I used to love taking the instant mana boost summoner on malphite top. I built to win lane and play utilitity engage/tank late game. Losing that summoner hurt my ability to lane him A LOT. Same goes for other champs and certain items. Mana manipulator used to be an awesome item for certain supports or play styles. Even certain champs losing stuff like on demand cc makes current game a problem. You know what Taric used to do to people diving his ADC? He got dang stunned them right then and there to buy them breathing room. Nunu used to be an awesome lane pick until riot decided screw that jungle only buddy!

I just really miss the old variety I used to see. Heck I saw an awesome ziggs jungle back during the days of blasting smite. It was amazing and I have no idea why it shouldn't be allowed.

As for some tanks, I would gladly trade more offensive power they have have gained for better defensive power. Leona W used to actually keep her alive really well. Does she need a near perma stun Q now? No not really. That and splitting up more characters kits is just over complicating characters that don't need it. Again looking at Leona. Why add on hit melee magic and range increase? Just give me all the damage up front. It isnt like she has a ranged engage/root that gets her stuck in melee range right?

Instead of making everything skill shots, actives, and super weird clunky rotations why not just keep somethings simple. Its a lot easier to balance simple champs than overly complex ones.

Rito Staff5 votes

The DotA becoming is happening.

Edit: First, I want to say sorry for being a spas. I dropped mid-through reading your post to write my own thing, but take it as appreciation. I wont edit the whole thing now on my phone tho :p

Imo, the main offender is too much damage. Situations are binary, it revolves around one moment of a flashy (out)play (hence why summoner 4 is so important in League - League is built around *FLASH "WOW COOL DUED").

Powerful junglers dive you easily, burst you easily, and often get only one tower shot, and sometimes none. This in turn, as you suggested, might result in: "Well, we think junglers are getting in and getting out a tad too safely, so we're kicking in some Daggers on that sht, let's make towers shoot faster" --> "Towers shooting faster are prolonging the laning phase more than we intended for, so we're lowering their damage" --> All the meanwhile not nerfing overall damage.

League before: "DotA has lvl 1 tower dives it sux lol" League Soontm: -----

(It's interesting to see sh*t develop over time and realise that everything has a reason, and we can see how DotA came into being sort of) Power creep is happening here obviously. Recent items added are also DotA 2-like.

What also takes place when there's too much damage? There's more tension. Whenever I play tanks I feel more at ease - I'm chill - because I'm not so vulnerable. It is another thing to play anyother squishier champion where there's fear involved and the fog is extremely threatening. Nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be so much like it. I believe that fear based action generates fear based emotions, such as guilt, anger and therefor toxicity.

Understand that Vi screams followed by disappearing chunks of HP, plus your powerlessness doesn't feel right nor fun - you were tense before, it didn't end well, what you do now? Get marry and happy? Or you start flaming and outbursting that stressful energy?

What games have less toxicity? Chill games. What chill games? Arams and Urfs. Because people are chill. The only way to steer away from this is reducing damage champions have (every champion, not just meta).

Right now, what value has DoT in League? Why would one ever pick it? Teemo isn't picked because of his DoT, but because of his map control, which makes people walk on glass, puts you ahead with gold assist, his high auto attack damage and his blind counter to ADCs. Same as Cassio, she doesn't do DoT, she bursts people to death.

Aand DoT isn't a thing because its fantasy doesn't involve a flash event, but an over time one (I know snakes in real life bite you in less than a second and that's it you're dead, but .. shutup)

Lower every single champions damage to less 40% (or so) and lower cooldowns. There would be more instanced fighting (which I think it's cool), assassinations would actually mean something. Teamwork would be needed to takedown people more easily (but not necessarily).

J4 recently jumped on to me, I went from 100% to 70% to 0% all in 1s. "He was fed" he performs very similarly in lane at lvl1, lvl2 and lvl3..

Imagine that Yasuo didn't have any crit at all - and imagine that in 2 dashes and a bit of walking he had his shield back. A bit annoying? Yes. But not tilting af, because at the same time that it would take some time to kill him, he wouldn't delete you either. Add some armor pen to his Q or something, and delay it a bit (0.5s?) so you have time to predict, and he'd be rewarded for hitting Q some more.

The different roles are all blended and confused because there's too much damage to differentiate. A diver can one shot you. A juggernaut can one shot you. Mages one shot you. Aatrox kit, which is supposed to make him a drain tank, is about hitting Q, E, Ult, W&Hydra proc. I've burst people like this, it's dumb. And when it comes to survive with autos... his fantasy doesn't happen very often.

The only ones left are the supports.

TL;DR -> This game is becoming like DotA. Lower every champions damage by a lot (40% is an illustrative example) and lower cooldowns. There's no room for different personalities or gameplay in League other than what we have, which is:

Non-official assassins (one shotters) and utility and/or tank champions.

Ahristocats3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NnGapO1H,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-27T17:46:14.236+0000)

#Conclusion The problem isn't one thing, it is a cumulative stacking of multiple things. Let's make sure we assign blame correctly so the problem can be fixed. If you have anything to add, any criticisms of my stances or any ideas on fixes, put them below. Thank you for reading.

who in the world blamed one thing? of course it's a cumulative stacking of multiple effects but it doesn't change that riot fucked up their game First blood tower broke MORE the game it doesn't matter what stat increase it made it just broke more the game period, and 2% is A LOT

Then we have cdr, NO cdr isn't fine. When you take five years to know the cd of every spells in the game you're able thanks to your game knowledge to know when a spell is up, with cdr it's just not the case you hesitate about making a play "did cdr reduced his spell cd by a lot that it's up again?" you're like this against any mage or other champions

towers are garbage like you said

and of course masteries

and the last problem which will never change is the constant balance of the game around plat+ which will just never make the game fun in high elo d1/master/challenger we went from like 70 viable pick and 5 op champs in season 3, to 40 viable picks and 20 op champs

Arya Riven10 votes

So your game knowledge from 5 years ago should be valid today why? Why shouldn't you have to account for CDR?

I agree the game should be balanced around Challenger. Not Diamond. Challenger. I am challenjour myself.

Fix all these other issues. Then watch ftb become a minor thing only top tier players worry about.

Champion winrates =/= objective win rates.

Ahristocats1 votes

i wish they just gave actual high elo an other balance, like 2 different ranked gamemode with the other gamemode aviable for high elo and there you have an other balance

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NnGapO1H,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-01-27T18:26:02.147+0000)

So your game knowledge from 5 years ago should be valid today why? Why shouldn't you have to account for CDR?

because it's IMPOSSIBLE to take in account cdr, that's what i'm talking to you do you want me to do the math in game with someone having 20 30 40 or 45% cdr? it's just cancer man even in dota2 i hate cdr good thing it's only on one item

Arya Riven6 votes

It is possible. It seperates diamond and low master from high master. It adds a layer of depth. Even I, in challenjour. Can estimate lower spell timers based on their CDR.

Ahristocats1 votes

"estimate" this is the problem, i don't want estimation i want real knowledge of the spell cd

Arya Riven8 votes

Learn to calculate. You might hit challenjour.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

I wouldn't attribute snowballing to being caused by "figuring out the game". Rather, I think Riot has finally made the game punishing enough that people who AREN'T GOOD are finally being taken to the cleaners. In ye olde days, League had rubber band mechanics out the ass. Jax got smashed in lane? nbd, just hold out with him. We lost every teamfight? Just wait for them to throw at baron. Etc etc etc.

League, right now, is in a state where you are punished adequately for mistakes. And guess what? When you fuck up, you make it harder to come back. I don't think the game is too snowbally. I rather think that people are getting a nasty wake-up call that their mistakes matter and constantly fucking it, be it in one lane or another, has consequences and leads to a loss. And, being honest, I'd rather have the game be decided because -I- made 5 costly mistakes rather than me playing incredibly well for 99% of the game but one late-game mistake forces me to lose.

Arya Riven12 votes

I don't think Korean pros opening mid at 15 minutes is healthy to be honest. League has always been a tug'a'war. Whoever wears out and gives way loses. Now if one guy's hands get a bit sore it ends immediately.

Troll for Trump3 votes

You should mention overloaded kits, and how they keep raising the bar everything.

While the things they make are certainly innovative, they keep setting standards for champs to outdo one another. Each new champ offers something unique, which, while fun for the player, often is hard to balance.

They have said they were going to try to make a champ with a simple kit this year.

Compare the older champs with the newer champs, that have paragraphs of abilities.

The better option would be to reduce the "creep" and focus more on setting up older champs(XZ, Urgot,Galio, even Aatrox (who's pretty new)) rather than release new champs.

If they must release new champs, they should be simplier ones that don't continue creeping up the game.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

While Camille was a bad release. I'd rather have more Bard's in the game than Garens.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Garen has to keep the toxic parts of his kit as ways to deal with overloadedness.

Riot makes overloaded, toxic things, and makes ways to combat those with other overloaded toxic mechanics.

These just end up leaving a ton of champs behind until they get updated with new, overloaded, toxic mechanics.

At this point, it's too late to "undo" overloadedness, but you can stop raising the bar and leaving the other champs in the dust

Arya Riven7 votes

I don't think any newer champions are more overloaded in particular than Yasuo? Camille is more broken, but no more overloaded than him. And new Warwick is not overloaded either, just updated to be playable. They seem to be doing fine. They just need to rework out of date designs. For example, Darius, Sion, Poppy, Warwick were all great reworks, barring some number tuning.

Arya Riven6 votes

I personally find Jhin, Bard and Kled to be awesome releases. While I get nothing from Xin'Zhao, Annie and Garen. Sorry.

Troll for Trump3 votes

That's the problem. Older champs don't offer anything new champs can and are just worse, unless they have an outdated toxic mechanic.

Ryze for instance, has kept his toxic targeted snare through all reworks because we need targeted cc to deal with all the unecessary mobility on new champs

Annie kept targeted cc.

Xin Zhao I don't need to exaplin. They tried adding a little more but he needs a rework.

Arya Riven3 votes

That is a problem with outdated designs.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Everything will become "outdated" as time passes. That's why we need to stop at some point, otherwise it just cycles. Urgot's locking mechanic was once the new sht, for instance.

Aatrox's unique way of using blood was once the "new thing", before being obsolete.

Arya Riven7 votes

Khazix change is good Viktor it will be glorious.

It is better to move forward even if there are mistakes made. Than to stagnate and die. Imagine if when humans first boat sunk they decided to never sail again?

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Ravenous Howls26 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NnGapO1H,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-01-27T20:00:33.987+0000)

tl;dr

You only deprived yourself then.

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