Boards›Gameplay

There has been massive "you bassicly cant dodge this if you are melee" creep

Poske··10 votes·1,966 views

Karthus Q is fair against all ranges, It doesnt matter if you are melee you can dodge it Brand W, Cass Q is fair against al ranges, it doesnt matter if you are melee or not

(Well even in those cases you tehnicly cant dodge forward if you are bruiser since there is a champion in front of you...)

Now lets compare those to

ZOE E. You are a bruiser (NOT SKIRMISHER) you jump on ZOE How the fk are you supposed to dodge so fast and fat missile while you are ON TOP OF HER. Yes against good zoe in 10% cases you could probably manage to pump fake it, but you ll never be able to reactivly dodge it

And no this isnt a fking ZOE hate thread

Lots of champions hit all abilities if they hit 1 ability which only magnifies this issue. Lux for example. Good luck dodging her light binding melee champions

Aatrox E - good luck dodging this if you are melee its also extra fat Ahri E - Polarizing but, atleast her animation is long compared to missile speed (riot can learn from this, also sound effect starts early) Amumu Q - again easier to hit from melee range Blitzcrank Q - yes it is polarizing, granted this is not the best example since you want to pull carries not bruisers who are on top of you Braum - Q one of the more polarizing abilities for melee champions Caitlyn - Q this one is more on a fair side because of long animation Corki - R slightly unfair, of course there is ranged advantage but it doesnt feel undodgable for mele champions Ezreal - Recently saw a video of Pro player/high elo streamer facepalming when ezreal missed q while enemy was on top of him This says alot, pro players know that it is massive missplay to miss Ezreal Q like abilities when enemy is on top of them (Ekko managed to kill that ezreal Illaoi - E the fact that she is juggarnaut only makes it worse, rename ability to recall forcer Elise - E Jayce - Q

I mean obviously I could keep going but I think everybody gets the point by now, In season 1-2 this issue wasnt there. Mainly because there werent many Ezreal Q type of skillshots

So what can Riot do in order to fix it?

  1. CHILL ON MISSILE SPEED (reduce it)
  2. Reduce ability width (maybe specificly at melee-medium range)
  3. Longer animations

this are the obvious suggestions

Less OBVIOUS IS TO STOP PRINTING SO MANY OF EZREAL LIKE Q ABILITIES Rather print Xerath W like abilities, fk even Xerath Q is fair for melee champions (although many ll say this ability is to wide regardless which I agree to)

More specific ones? A keystone which would help bruisers

**Introduce a keystone which allows champions to rotate (125 range to a side) around champion they recently attacked ** Extra notes

You cant "Rotate" backwards (So no you cant use this like kalista hop), You must go around a target So obviously AD carries wouldnt like this. Why the fk would they run melee circles around target XD

Only melee champions would like this keystone but there is NOTHING fking wrong with that

How would it work buttom wise, Rightclick, hold and pull rightclick, combination of leftclick+rightclick** riot would find a way **

Also a more unique nerf suggestions

Change for example Le blanc chains - change from root > ground, That way my foes ll atleast have oportunity to dodge 2nd chain with movement. You could apply this nerf to lux,Zyra and most of champions who can sometimes follow a pattern off I hit 1 ability suddendly i hit my entire kit and that initial ability is like impossible to dodge if you are melee

This is more of general health thread. not saying XXYTYTXTY champions need a nerf, Just saying melee champions globally struggle functioning in teamfights

So next time Riot wants to nerf a champion. Dont reduce damage and AP ratio consider stuff like this

38 Comments

Handy Sandy 4 votes

Often with melee champs, if you DO get on top of someone ranged who's decently balanced or doesn't have a kit to just counter you like quinn or heimer, you'll kill them if they don't have a certain ability up

If you just increase the animations it'll be too easy to dodge as a ranged champion.

Also Qss

Poske1 votes

If you just increase the animations it'll be too easy to dodge as a ranged champion.

Not if we make skillshot Accelerate for example.

Also Qss

Main issue is that melee champions have extremly hard time dodging specific type of abilities. Yes you can qss some impressive mate

Now go build qss on a melee champion not named riven and try being a high elo while doing so

Handy Sandy 4 votes

Now go build qss on a melee champion not named riven and try being a high elo while doing so

Yea It's...... actually a good idea? Works on every AD assassin and stuff like Fiora and Yi. If you're someone like Maokai then you don't need it because you're a tank.

Poske1 votes

This thread isnt there with a concern that assassins / skirmishers cant teamfight (altough even those struggle to an extent)

Assassins are not designed to teamfight, they have other strenghts (Except for katarina)

Skirmishers such as Fiora,Riven can somewhat teamfight

This thread is about how melee champions struggle dodging stuff specially compared to ranged champions this effects bruisers the most

Bruisers arent assassins they cant assassinate a target from 1k range like Zed/Le blanc can Bruisers arent skirmishers they cant effectivly splitpush and force smaller fights or be somewhat effective in teamfights

A list of champions who struggle the most Aatrox Darius DrMundo Garen Illaoi Irelia Kled Volibear Vi Udyr Tryndamere Trundle Pantheon Poppy Renekton Rengar RekSai Nocturne Malphite

Now note how some of this champions act like handicaped version of assassins (like nocturne) because you cant build bruiser noc nowdays

Handy Sandy 2 votes

What? I never said anything at all about anyone teamfighting.

If you wanna be up in someone's face, you're a melee champion, that's one of your risks. What's next, you wanna have larger auto attack ranges so you don't get poked while farming? Melees have their own advantages like base stats and mobility. And they're usually tanky enough to survive a bunch of skillshots in the first place, OR they have mobility to dodge it, or some type of defensive tool like a windwall, or some sustain like Darius Q.

Ahristocats3 votes

let me add few to the list (recent one)

Ivern Q Galio W Urgot ult Evelynn Q

that's what happens when you use skillshots to balance a game at least xerath E stun duration fades depending on how close you are to him

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z4J2mRrJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-01T17:59:22.612+0000)

let me add few to the list (recent one)

Ivern Q Galio W Urgot ult Evelynn Q

that's what happens when you use skillshots to balance a game at least xerath E stun duration fades depending on how close you are to him

This is why I didnt mention xerath, because he is healthy against melee compared to everything else

Although he follows a pattern off > I hit 1 ability eat all my other abilities (Except r)

And this doesnt change even if you are on top of him since in he ll land both Q and E in 0.5 seconds. Hm quite sure he could land all even if stun was only 0.2 seconds so not sure if tenacity would help

And of course I could put 40-50 abilities on that list but didnt want to make to long thread

But Galio W is unique example

I guess abilities like Kennen R, Karthus E, Galio W are abilities which melee champions are just supposed to take to the face

FireDrizzle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z4J2mRrJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-01T17:59:22.612+0000)

let me add few to the list (recent one)

Ivern Q Galio W Urgot ult Evelynn Q

that's what happens when you use skillshots to balance a game at least xerath E stun duration fades depending on how close you are to him

You can add Galio and Urgot's dashes to that list.

Ahristocats1 votes

galio E can be dodged by melees tbh, but they have a harder time to dodge it

NotADragon2371 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z4J2mRrJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-01T17:59:22.612+0000)

let me add few to the list (recent one)

Ivern Q Galio W Urgot ult Evelynn Q

that's what happens when you use skillshots to balance a game at least xerath E stun duration fades depending on how close you are to him

In urgots case, it is his ult anyway, so its not unfair by any means.

yoshi27903 votes

Honestly, that's the trade-off you get from playing melee, you have better stats and are a greater threat (when you stand nnext to a ranged character) in trade-off for range. And in melee range you can stand on top of the champion and dodge it like that.

Poske3 votes

And in melee range you can stand on top of the champion and dodge it like that.

Uhm no you cant. Your hitbox can never be in another hitbox

Melee champions have greater stats because they are typicaly in center of fire / not because it is impossible for them to dodge Ezreal like Qs

Or i might aswell ask for much more stats for melee champs because clearly this isnt enough

yoshi27901 votes

what do you mean this clearly isn't enough? The highest winrate champions across multiple sites are... surprise all melee. They clearly are not outclassed by far and the bonus stats they get is perfectly fine.

Poske2 votes

When was the last time you saw melee champion carry a teamfight? How often do you see melee champions carry teamfights? How often do you see ranged champions carry teamfights?

its it 50/50 split?

Go at your match history and try to find such games.

Yes there are extremly rare exceptions

Katarina can carry a teamfight - did that many times Yasuo can carry a teamfight - did that many times

Extremly ahead riven/fiora - can somewhat outsclass ranged champions in a teamfight Gangplank - LeL at people who count him as melee at this point

So you might find 5/65 melee champions to be as successful teamfighters as 50/65 ranged champions are This is the issue which I am underlining

Now at your gold 5 the situation might a lil better for melee champions but this is how it looks like in high elo

Every melee champions is just a midnless pawn of ranged overlords (Specially AD carries)

Melee Champions extremly rarely match Mage/Marskman teamfight impact which is sad

This is not an issue in DOTA2 or any other moba

Now obvoiusly in this thread I only mention how melee champions (mainly looking at bruisers) have extremly hard time dodging certain type of skillshot

This clearly isnt the only reason why we have so few successful melee teamfighters, when I say successful I mean (they can match ADC/MAGE presence)

The other reason is irelevance of defense (some might say overbundance on damage but what I say is more precise)

yoshi27901 votes

Melee champions are perfectly able to carry teamfights. They just do it in a different way.

e.g.

  1. if Amumu lands a 5 man ultimate, and you win that fight, he carried that teamfight. He probably won't have killed anyone, but locking down 5 members gave the others the opportunity to safely deal their damage. Amumu got 5 assists, the ADC got the pentakill, but Amumu carried that fight.

  2. Let's say you play Tank Akali. In a teamfight you are a threat to the enemy ADC, you can deal lots of damage to him, but because other champions are tankier you are no threat to them. You can stick on the enemy Lucian and zone him out of the fight, keeping him and the support busy. You die, but your team easily won that 4v3 and are now 4v2. You end up ace'ing (sorry for spelling) them with 3 of your team still alive. You died, but carried that teamfight because you turned the 5v5 into 4v3.

You see, melee champions often don't get the glory but do carry teamfights, just in different ways. If melee's weren't able to carry, you wouldn't see any challenger playing melees. Surprise, they do.

Poske2 votes

{quoted}

Melee champions are perfectly able to carry teamfights. They just do it in a different way.

e.g.

  1. if Amumu lands a 5 man ultimate, and you win that fight, he carried that teamfight. He probably won't have killed anyone, but locking down 5 members gave the others the opportunity to safely deal their damage. Amumu got 5 assists, the ADC got the pentakill, but Amumu carried that fight.

Yes Amumu can match ADC/Mage influence in one teamfight every 7-8 games. I did mention him Here are the issues

  1. It happens rarely
  2. It happens with only few melee champions
  1. Let's say you play Tank Akali. In a teamfight you are a threat to the enemy ADC, you can deal lots of damage to him, but because other champions are tankier you are no threat to them.

Didnt I mention in original posts that melee champions are sort of like puppets/peasants for their ranged adc overlords? Didnt I?

Also Tank akali is one of the most retarded examples you could possible give it made me chuckle

  1. Akali is not great teamfighter
  2. Tank akali? XD what?

You can stick on the enemy Lucian and zone him out of the fight, keeping him and the support busy.

Yes the Pawns go first. This is all the melee champions tend to be in teamfights. Fking distraction Pawns I know how to BE AS USEFUL AS YOU CAN be with 95% of melee champions in a game as ex challenger and season 1 player

My point is that to few Melee champions can match the ranged influence. And unfairness in skillshots vs melee champions only magnifies it

If melee's weren't able to carry, you wouldn't see any challenger playing melees. Surprise, they do.

Where can I get PHD on how to be clueless in statistics ?

yoshi27901 votes

I used Tank Akali to prove even the bad melees can carry teamfights. And melees are no pawns, ranged usually get the kills because they build more dmg. Go full damage yi and you'd have the same result as a ranged carry. You'd get all the kills and glory.

It has nothing to do with Ranged or melee, it has all to do with items and items.

Poske2 votes

What makes you think your opinion can possibly match opinion of master tier player (ex challenger 450lp) player who has 20 000 league matches?

I am slightly exaggerating yes

There are few melee champions like master yi in low elo and yasuo in high elo who can consistently match ranged champions

But 65 > 5

At best I can accept that there are 10 melee champions who can match ADC/Mage presence and then again even those 10 cant match ADC presence past 35 minutes

Since this wasnt the case in past I am pointing out one of the reasons

Every season its getting harder and harder for melees to do stuff in teamfights

yoshi27901 votes

If you are a master player with so much more game knowledge and if I am truly a player that knows nothing about this game because you are superior, prove your point instead of ELO shaming. You just keep repeating your point and saying no to my statements, without proving or explaining anything.

"I am master your opinion can't match mine" Oh please

Poske1 votes

My opinion comes from experience. I have eyes, I see whats happening..

What do you want me to explain?

Pick melee champions. try to dodge stuff once you get inside a fight. You cant because you are on top of enemy champion at which point they are extremly unlikely to miss

This thread essentially says that melee champions have hard time dodging compared to old days

% Of ezreal Q like abilities increased so fking hard..

But yes there are exceptions. Ussualy melee champions who dash 123 times a second

Go watch some Insert any other Moba

Like dota2 battlerite. You ll see in how bad situation melee champions are

Lucas Fehrwight2 votes

Just play a good ad assassin or a really good bruiser and git gud. Kayne, Yasuo, Lee, Zed, Rengar, Jarvan etc. You'll understand that they don't need this crap.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Just play a good ad assassin or a really good bruiser and git gud. Kayne, Yasuo, Lee, Zed, Rengar, Jarvan etc. You'll understand that they don't need this crap.

You listed 4 assassins. (Although lee is 10 classes at once)

Yasuo which I already main specificly because I am aware this is probably the best functioning melee teamfight champion in a game and the only champion who in my opinion functions as good in teamfights as ranged champions.

You also listed j4 which is duskblade assassin stoneplate tank XD and a specific champion who can still dash while ROOTED (EQ)

I am also already GUD

Lakega2 votes

WHy does any of this matter? omg a lux that has bind yet most melees still have ways to close the gap after, or still hit her? my word what a terrible thing!

Kilanost1 votes

i've long thought melee champs should have some level of increased tenacity compared to ranged champs. Would probably help with this issue as I don't particularly mind the damage as much as the ease of pointblank CC.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

i've long thought melee champs should have some level of increased tenacity compared to ranged champs. Would probably help with this issue as I don't particularly mind the damage as much as the ease of pointblank CC.

We are in a League of knocbacks/knockups

Tenacity is just a noob bait stat at this point although I have nothing against your suggestion, it wouldnt help much...

We probably need item which allows bruisers to leap if they are knocked, (Perhaps while mid air XD)

Kilanost3 votes

saying tenacity is worthless is true now that you mention it. I played with my runes and build for a few games to see how much max tenacity would help the feel of my champions. Legit no change. Tenacity does dick against slows and only works on some forms of hard CC. The stat needs to be reworked.

Poske1 votes

Soon (2 weeks) I ll make a big mega thread on every gameplay problem in league

Tenacity ll be mentioned

Morgan le Fey1 votes

I would love to get rid of tenacity. Certain champs can get up to 80%+ Tenacity, and that makes my main quite useless. It feels awful to land a hard Q at range on Garen and still have him on top of me less than a second later, especially given how binary Morg is.

So yes, it can be useful, sadly. If Riot were to make anti-CC any more prevalent, though, it'd probably be wise to reexamine some champions that are 100% reliant on their CC in order to do anything. Otherwise, we could end up with 2016 Olaf and Aatrox all over again.

Speaking of Morg, though, there's another one that's hard to dodge in melee. That said, cast time, plus she actually has no other recourse against you at all - not even escapes. Besides, it's what makes her mid lane work. I love it when junglers dive me, thinking they'll take advantage of that nice squishy low-HP mage. It's kinda like playing Mei, only far more satisfying, because they totally did it to themselves! They just sit there helplessly under tower and wait for their inevitable demise. Mweheehee.

[vlad-salute]

Terchio1 votes

You lost me when you started listing season 1-2 champions, and it only got worse to see non-CC skills which don't set up a thing. Somehow, you left out 3 of the biggest successfully instagib reduced champions, Warwick Rengar Ryze (which mostly have had issues being relevant).

Poske1 votes

But arent you just missing a point then

Ryze,ww,rengar were just as opressive to ranged champions as they were opressive to melee champions

My creep specifies the increase of Ezreal Q like abilities compared to brand W and other abilities

Which in turn leads to melee champions having harder time dodging

Was my original post not clear enough?

Yes the number of targeted abilities went down and in no way shape or form I claimed that this is bad

Terchio1 votes

So everyone has to be Soraka to make you happy? Because even Soraka was conditionally fierce back then, I used to main her offensive build. You're listing poke champs and juggernauts on this list, and some of the champions on the list were the same problem as always back in seasons 1-2, your supposed ideal timeframe (Ezreal Corki Blitzcrank Amumu ). Other unapproachable champions have been fixed from being so unapproachable by melees (Darius Kassadin Fiora ), and others yet have fallen into bad times with a smaller impact in a more mobile game (Renekton Riven LeeSin ). The last bunches weren't around in seasons 1-2, but I think you're a little late for the party if you're complaining about this after all these improvements have been made to the game (as well as general mobility improving as much as it has).

Poske1 votes

I genuinly dont understand what are you trying to say

All I am saying is that teamfighting is getting more complicated for melee champions every Patch Because they keep printing ezreal q like abilities which are undodgable from melee range

Thats All I am saying

And I dont understand whole soraka example

Soraka q is faster the closer you are to her. Almost like they want it to be undodgable vs melee champs

RenownedWheat421 votes

You just... wait until they use the ability that will fuck you, then you go in. Wait. Play it properly.

Poske1 votes

Thanks mate never though of that!

RookPusher1 votes

I feel this way about Yas' Nado

Poske1 votes

Its true I ljust didnt want to make a full list

kyupi1 votes

[deleted]

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SCARY GAY DUDE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z4J2mRrJ,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-05-16T06:44:16.708+0000)

actually true

Sadly Riot is unaware of this creep

We didnt get a bruiser keystone which allows bruisers to Exist in a teamfight like the rotate to the left/right position of a target you autoed I suggested

No We got conqueror. We got a keystone which bullies in a lane. How interesting. We got keystone which solvers 0 issues.

Guess what now tanks are removed from a game (apart from support role), soon we ll need a keystone for them.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Poske

As a high elo Yasuo Main buffing Yasuo is mistake
Gameplay170 comments
219
votes
Pyke nerfs any time soon? He is no longer a new champion
Gameplay175 comments
145
votes
Can we have A Damage Shielded End game stat?
Gameplay51 comments
121
votes
Rant Coming from a Mage/Ap assassin main? CAN WE LIKE OVERHAUL ENTIRE AP ITEMIZATION?
Gameplay156 comments
115
votes
Yasuo Tornado width deserves to be reduced. Sincenerly coming from Yasuo main
Gameplay140 comments
112
votes
I bet that the same arrogant people who wanted shorter games are regreting it now
Gameplay79 comments
107
votes