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How do I math? Why Zilian?

Mohrb··2 votes·1,423 views

5.4 Zilian Patch notes: "At max ranks, E slows at 99% movement speed. Ninety nine percent." "SLOW AMOUNT 55% ⇒ 40%/55%/70%/85%/99% (yes, that is correct) "

... no it isn't. You lied to me. You promised poppy would be reworked a dozen reworks ago, and you're sneaking in more reworks to champions that were just bloody fine... like zilian... and not just breaking him, but lying about the math.

I figured with the loss of reliability, in late game, I could see a bomb hit, slow them to essentially a root for 2.5 seconds to rewind and hit with a guaranteed skill shot (since their move speed should be virtually 0) so that in only 4 spells, I can get that sweet 1.5 second stun!

In game testing: Annie has 357 move speed. Hit the first bomb, hit her with a max rank slow, rewind, and throw the second bomb... and she STILL walked out of range before the bomb hit because her move speed isn't 4... it's 112. That's a 68% slow. Not 99%.

Tried against 450 move speed fiddlesticks... 99% slow would put him at 5 move speed... he's at 150. Again, 68% slow at max ranks.

Maybe there's some weird resistance coming into play, so let's look at the ally speed bonus. No boots, I had 360... 99% speed boost should put me at 360*1.99=716movespeed, right? end up with a 586 move speed. that's 62%... not 99%. Buffed an ally with boots and a move speed pre-buff of 386... expect 768 considering it's a max level 2.5 second buff... nope... 611. that's a 59% move speed buff.

99% is not 68%... or 62%... or 59%.

Not even starting on how painful the delay is on this new skill shot... and yea, the new graphic is pretty nifty... but when did Zilian need a nerf? His passive has long been one of the weakest in the game (even when it was global)... but what did he do to get the ban hammer so forcefully inserted? ... more to the point, can we at least be honest about the numbers?

This is offensive: "At max ranks, E slows at 99% movement speed. Ninety nine percent." "SLOW AMOUNT 55% ⇒ 40%/55%/70%/85%/99% (yes, that is correct) "

16 Comments

Mathbalnase3 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed

When the raw movement speed is less than 220 another soft cap is used: If the raw speed below 220, it gets multiplied by 50% and added to 110.

Mohrb1 votes

1- that doesn't apply to Nasus. Why Zilian? 2- Math still doesn't explain how 450 becomes 150. by that math, it should be 118. 3- If that's the case, levels 3-5 should drop everyone to 113-119 move speed... so why pretend to have a seperate "85% debuff" from a 99% debuff when they both drop to a specific cap? 4- that doesn't explain allies being given a 59-62% speed boost instead of "99%, that's right, 99%!"

Mathbalnase2 votes

1 - 3 2: quirkiness? I don't know. Just providing information you seemed to be lacking that explains some of the apparent discrepancy. edit: 3: do note that is is NOT a 'specific cap', but a soft cap. It is a point after which further slowing is subject to dramatically diminishing returns (slows sufficient to reduce raw speed to 20 reduce actual speed to 120, while slows sufficient to reduce raw speed to 2 reduce actual speed to 111)

4 - see elsewhere in same link:

When the raw movement speed is greater than 415, there are two soft caps applied: The raw speed between 415 and 490 gets multiplied by 80%. The raw speed over 490 gets multiplied by 50%.

Mohrb1 votes

Take a 360 movespeed champ... pretty standard. Level 3 skill is a 70% reduction... Should be 108 Maybe 111 due to being around the softcap. Level 4's 85% debuff... you get an extra 1% change. Level 5's 99% debuff, less than a 2% change from level 3's version.

Level 4 and 5 are literally indistinguishable.

Now, about the other bit... the claim that "bombs are more risk/rewarding because they're harder to hit, but if you can land 2, you get the longest non-ult stun in the game!"

... First, this requires 3-4 spells, hitting with 2 -delayed- skillshots within 3 seconds... to get a 1.5 second stun.

Whoever wrote this has never played league. Taric stuns for 1.6 single click. Not even a skill shot. Brand stuns for 2 seconds 2 with a 2 hit combo Elise's stun is 2 seconds off 1 skill shot. Sion can stun for 2.25 seconds... in a large AoE.

These are all more than 1.5. And are exponentially more reliable.

Whoever redesigned Zilean has never played League. Or done math. Probably also hasn't grasped the concept of shoes with laces.

Mathbalnase1 votes

{quoted}

Take a 360 movespeed champ... pretty standard. Level 3 skill is a 70% reduction... Should be 108 Maybe 111 due to being around the softcap. Level 4's 85% debuff... you get an extra 1% change. Level 5's 99% debuff, less than a 2% change from level 3's version.

Level 4 and 5 are literally indistinguishable.

111 is the speed you get if your raw speed would be 2, not 108.

A 360MS champ doesn't interact with any of the high-end soft caps, so that's an easy start. Their raw speed is their real speed. Hit by a 70% slow, they are reduced to 108 raw speed. That's less than 220, so it's multiplied by .5 and added to 110. Which gets us 168 real speed while the slow lasts. With an 85% slow, they're reduced to 54 raw speed, or 137 real speed. At 99%, they're reduced to 3.6 raw speed, or 112 real speed.

This is how the low-end soft caps work.

The rest of that post doesn't seem to be addressed at me.

Mohrb1 votes

1: None of my posts were directed at you at all.
2: It very well could be soft cap functioning as intended, it's strange that a start of 360 and 450 are both reduced by 68%.
3: Either way, it doesn't matter. Won't change anything... riot's changed too much shit to care at this point.

Fizz and Poppy definitely balanced champs.

Mathbalnase1 votes

2 - if you show your math, I might be able to help you find the problem

Talamare2 votes

Movement speed has soft caps which reduce effectiveness of excessive movement speed increases/slows

Mohrb1 votes

So, if the soft cap is somewhere between rank 2 and 3.... why is there a rank 5?

For a slow, look at Nasus' wither. It seems to successfully get pretty close to the promised 95% reduction at the peak of the slow. For the buff, look at ulting yi with homeguards and a lulu buff... there's tons of videos online showing people acheiving pretty ridiculous speeds due to the lack of a soft cap.

... more importantly, if it were a soft cap, the numbers wouldn't vary as much. This isn't a soft cap issue.

Sightless662 votes

The soft cap does apply to Nasus. If you look next time you play against him, you'll note that you never go slower than 110 movement speed.

For the buff, the soft cap does apply to the Yi and Lulu buffs. They get ridiculous speeds because they're using massive modifiers together so that it's gigantic even after the soft cap.

Your number variation can be explained by the soft cap too. For example, you note in the OP than when you buffed someone, you got a 62% speed boost if they didn't have boots and a 59% speed boost if they did. This is explained by how if they have boots, they are closer to the first soft movement speed cap of 415, and the second soft movement speed cap of 490. (To be clear on how this works, if you buff someone's movement speed, you get the full buff until they have 415 movement speed, you get 80% of the buff until they are at 490 movement speed, and then you get 50% after 490). You would expect to get a lower percentage boost boost for champions with a higher movement speed because more of the boost would be eaten up by the soft cap. Unless champions start with the same movement speed, you should expect variation in the actual percentage of buff or debuff you give.

It's a soft cap issue. It is working the same as any other champion with a slow.

Glevion2 votes

New zilean is better than older's what are you saying...

Old Zilean was a monster in early and useless in late, now it has a good early and (in my opinion) beast late, because you can spam bombs easily, they lowered the CD.

Mohrb1 votes

I haven't played enough games with new Zilian to give the bombs a fair shake... but I main Syndra and Lux and can hit with orbs and singularities all day. I'm fine with Karthas Q's and Soraka's new starfalls and kog'maw ults... but this delay seems longer, and unless the enemies I've faced were all supernaturally lucky, it seems like they can see where it's about to land in plenty of time to side step it and have it stick to a creep nearby and be way off-target.

It seems like Fizz's ult... except with more warning, a smaller area, and a tendency to be eaten by creeps.

8yVkmwxq0D2 votes

I haven't done any math, but I feel like when I run into a wall of Thresh's ult, I get slowed to a point where I can barely move. I figured that that's what Zilean's max E would do.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

Yeah this needs to be explained. A skill should never, ever say 99% slow when it will never actually do that.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah this needs to be explained. A skill should never, ever say 99% slow when it will never actually do that.

Thresh ult does too.

The point of a 99% slow is to ensure the person gets down to the very limit of movement speed regardless of any other modifiers in play. It's not terribly different to say, a 70% slow in a lot of cases, sure, but it's not meant to be. It's just a nice bit of extra power to have that a sped up enemy will still be slowed to the lowest speed possible.

Karlyr1 votes

Was gonna upvote, and saw that you can't write Zilean properly.

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