Can Lulu's Pix and Ivern's Triggerseed effects disappear if the shield breaks before they activate?

King of Mongoose··32 votes·1,556 views

Right now both spells give a shield but their effects stay for the entire duration even if the shield is fully broken

meanwhile sion's w loses it's active effect if the shield is broken and I guess to a lesser extent morg doesn't have the black shield anti cc effect if blackshield is broken

but can pix and triggerseed not explode or keep dealing damage even if the shield is broken? maybe breaking the shield knocks pix back to lulu and just shatters the triggerseed.

37 Comments

Muzét11 votes

Sorry but I can't agree with that. I know people find them strong. But you shouldn't nerf (specially such a huge nerf) them like that. And you can't compare them to Sion. Sion deals %Max HP dmg with it not Lulu nor Ivern.

I don't know why you want to hit Lulu there rather than something else but I do get the Ivern point. The Shield is his most repeatable ability and it can be painful to handle when you're not playing mobile champ (or you got your cd). I do agree he should be hit somehow but on the cooldown not on how it works. Nothing more.

But care to explain the Lulu point? I know for fact that's a thing to max it first but did Pix gets more purple ?

Spoofghoul3 votes

in that case can we just give sions shield a slow then and buff his attacks when its active

im totally not biased btw

Muzét2 votes

But... YOU ARE!

Salson1 votes

The current problem is you always use the shield. Her E has 2 different uses, but the shield is FAR stronger since the AS buff. Maybe the AS could drop to 50% once broken?

Knoyle14 votes

That's not how it works you little shit

Lulu's AS steroid is on her W. Whimsy. her E provides Pix to whover it is activated on. It is also worth noting 1 projectile of her q fires from pix so it would fire from her e target as well.

Salson1 votes

Weird, thought E is the standard shield because of Janna.

Still, its a shield that gives damage while Janna has the same thing (though AD instead of AS) but breakable and Sona has a one attack buff.

Muzét12 votes

The shield doesn't give AS at all. It just gives Pix to an ally.

Salson12 votes

I may be a dumbass after all

SayoriIsBigSad2 votes

Your only upvoted comment, feelsbadman. Also her W gives attackspeed/movespeed to allies while her E gives her passive to an allied champion.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I wonder if the abilities could offer stronger shields in return for this change. Then the player would be faced with a choice between buffing an ally who is safe or engaging and thus have opportunity to use the buff, or using the ability to shield somebody getting focused.

Maybe this would work, or not. I might be accidentally proposing a huge buff. Not sure how it would all settle out in extreme cases of being behind or ahead by too much.

Muzét1 votes

It could work with Ivern since he allows allies to be more sticky (through Q and E) but Triggerseed should still have the same effect on daisy imo (You wouldn't want a daisy buff trust me).

But on Lulu dunno if it's worth it. The Pix just add a bit more variety on dmg but that's it nothing extraordinary. SO giving her more shield would be another reason to max E first #TeamMaxW1st

LawUrDepravdHart1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but I can't agree with that. I know people find them strong. But you shouldn't nerf (specially such a huge nerf) them like that. And you can't compare them to Sion. Sion deals %Max HP dmg with it not Lulu nor Ivern.

I don't know why you want to it Lulu there rather than something else but I do get the Ivern point. The Shield is his most repeatable ability and it can be painful to handle when you're not playing mobile champ (or you got your cd). I do agree he should be hit somehow but on the cooldown not on how it works. Nothing more.

But care to explain the Lulu point? I know for fact that's a thing to max it first but did Pix gets more purple ?

I agree that OP's suggested change to pix should NOT be put into effect. It would take away part of Lux's skill ceiling in being able to extend glitterlance's range for tricky skillshots. How lame would it be in a team fight if you shield a front line teammate only to have pix bounce back to you when the shield is broken by focus fire. If your teammate was on their backline you could slow their entire team with pix's positioning and a carefully aimed glitterlance.

Muzét1 votes

Yeah. I'm kinda sad to see the removal of the interruption dash with Ahri's E. You shouldn't reduce a champion skillfloor. Look at Taliyah they reduced it, buff her and then nerfed her into oblivion next to Azir.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Make lulu not be able to pix minions, that thing is horrible to play against.

Muzét1 votes

Na that's usually predictable and easily dodgeable. I dodged most of Lulu's Q if she put it on a minion. It's harder when it's on you but still possible. You shouldn't nerf such mechanic simply because you got issues with it. She "sacrificies" part of her dmg/shield to get you and you still can dodge it

Troll for Trump1 votes

That's not me just having an issue with it, it's high elo players.

Low elo players don't usually know about or use the pix-on-minions thing. They struggle with just Lulu using her Q or casting pix on the enemy.

At high elo, players can dodge that, so lulu players need to do something different, which is pix-ing the minions.

If you play at high elo, against competent Lulus, the pix on minion is much worse to deal with as she gets extended range.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I'd just like to point out the small difference between Sion and Lulu & Ivern. The reason Sion doesn't get his Damage if it pops, because the entire reason is to draw Aggro in Teamfights, just like how Naut shield works. If you don't want a Sion doing 10% of people's health, or a Naut slamming people nearby for damage, you put in a little effort to stop that damage. The Damage makes them a threat, that need be dealt with, and as a result, the damage gets to be stronger and so does the shield.

With Ivern and Lulu, there shields are considerably weaker, as they don't build as much scaling stats as Sion or Naut do, so they are more akin to an actual part of the kit in how they function. I'm trying not to defend them, because I kinda hate both, but the difference needs to be pointed out.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Doesn't explain why Morganas and Jannas shields work like that then, though. The argument works for tanks, but what about them?

ninjaroxas3 votes

Janna and morgs shield are also a lot stronger

Rhai3 votes

Because at that point Morg would have a targetable olaf ult on a potentially 8-9 second cooldown. As for Janna, people argue that AD is really strong as it affects ability scalings.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Morgana's shield makes ya immune to CC and Janna can give you like, 50 more AD? Those are much bigger effects than a slow (Ivern) or Pix damage.

Azteryz3 votes

doesnt matter if you compare it to sions shield

whether its sion/ivern/lulu/naut/janna

IF I DESTROY YOUR SHIELD BEFORE THE DURATION ENDS

i should be rewarded by removing the bonus effect/active it gives/allows (sion %hp dmg, lulu pix, ivern slow+dmg, janna ad/naut dot+cool glowing eyes)

i dont see why there would be a reason to make exceptions it makes no sense game design or game health wise

tl;dr fix the shields on ivern and lulu

Muzét2 votes

You can't compare them. That's not consistency that's utility. Sion can deal %MaxHP by exploding it, naut got AoE DoT for every single auto he gives. Janna gives AD.** She gives AD**. She doesn't increase basic attack dmg for a %. She's directly adding stat to every single spell you got with AD Ratios. Meanwhile Ivern just gives you a shield with no effect on you rather than shielding you and same goes for Lulu.

Clementine3 votes

Why would Pix leave his target after the shield is gone? Pix has nothing to do with the shield, Lulu's staff is the thing creating the shield. So thematically it wouldn't make any sense.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Sorry, but I have to point out that you made this up. Quote from LoLs website about the skill:

[...] If the ally is a champion, Pix shields them from 80/120/160/200/240 (+60% Ability Power) damage for 6 seconds. [...]

It is clearly stated that Pix is the source of the shield, not Lulu. This pseudo-argument doesn't work here.

Teridax682 votes

I agree with this, and I think this kind of effect should be extended to all shield + buff combos. Generally, shields are made so that players are incentivized to attack them (Sion's W is a good example), and making a buff purely conditional upon the uptime of a shield is one of the best ways of doing that. Janna's bonus AD, Naut's on-hit effect, Skarner's bonus movement speed and Urgot's slow are all great examples of buffs specifically tied to their shields, and the fact that some on-shield buffs are completely independent from the shield itself does not make for good consistency at all.

There might be a concern that this would be a nerf to the affected champions (and it would be), but the advantage to a change like this is that it would make those champions healthier, and would allow them to receive more power elsewhere. Lulu, for example, could definitely use some slightly softer mana costs, and Ivern could perhaps have some better-tailored interactions with his passive and specific jungle camps (he shouldn't really have to spend health on the scuttle crab, for example). I'd much rather see a champion's power be redistributed in a healthier way than kept as is, simply because they're balanced in their current, less healthy state (though Ivern himself likely just needs a straight-up nerf).

Athenes Lulu2 votes

honestly then pix would be a shittier version of jannas shield

value wise it is already outmatched but i dont mind if they nerf the base values of her shields

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

This. Janna can have this effect because getting an AD steroid means that any AD scaling abilities used in that time will also get an increase, her steroid gives burst damage so it's not as much of a detriment if it gets popped because someone can already get value from it in just a second but Lulu's passive requires the target be able to apply it for a long time to get the value from it since it's an on attack effect. Making it be lost when her shield pops would kill the point of having that passive able to be applied to allies.

Votable Jester2 votes

Well Lulu's present situation makes sense because her E doesn't apply the shield to allied minions. If they made it shield allied minions though, I'd be fine with that change.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thematically it makes sense, mechanically I'd be worried they would make the abilities too similar to other shields. I'm not sure about this; but the shield might need to be stronger to give users a better chance to use the effect then, since being focused would remove the effect pretty quickly in teamfights late game.

Maybe I'm wrong though, because they would have new use cases added on for the abilities, one being used for the effect but not the damage reduction, and the other for saving allies who are getting focused. This might add more skill expression and balance them out after all.

You have befuddled me with a change that seems both good and bad at the same time! Great idea, I like how thought provoking it is!

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Problem is, her Q range extension would be too easily nullified.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

We call that counterplay.

Rhai1 votes

Petition to kill Zed's shadow

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

We call that counterplay.

Thats only counterplay if you consider making large portions of a kit utterly useless. I mean, calling that "counterplay" is roughly the equivalent of claiming Caitlyn's traps should have an HP bar.

invisiblecat11 votes

On lulu it isn't as strong since she can still shield the backline and they will deal more damage, but on Ivern it is stupid how breaking the shield doesn't stop the damage and the slow

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

It actually makes a difference in lane, though. If you got an adc with high attack speed (for example with steroids) the ammount of damage they can pull with that is huge.

ninjaroxas1 votes

It wouldn't make sense with lulu since the shield and pix are different effects. You'd also have to make their shields stronger if they did do that to either of them

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