Oh look, another champion is released with a fuck ton of knockups. Tenacity is pretty much useless.
Make knockups affected by tenacity. It's ridiculous that they are not.
168 Comments
Penns23 votesI mean the only real item with tenacity are Mercs
and 
= 25 MR + tenacity
while 
= 15 magic pen + no passive
kappa
Theorchero38 votesI mean the only real item with tenacity are Mercs
and
Merc treads are absolutely garbage. I'd take tabis over them every time unless they don't have an adc, which almost never happens.
Penns35 votesPeople saying merc treads are garbage are the same people that said Tabi were "fine" when everyone built them hehe xd
Theorchero8 votesPeople saying merc treads are garbage are the same people that said Tabi were "fine" when everyone built them hehe xd
All of the other boot options suck dick except for sorc shoes and maybe berserker greaves. There's always going to be an adc and usually more AD champions than just that, and even if that's not the case, the armor granted reduces minion, jungle, and tower damage while also reducing damage dealt by adcs by 12%.
Of fucking course I'm going to take it every game.
Penns13 votesWhy are mid laners often giving up penetrating almost 50% of a squishies MR with for garbage mr boots tho?
Theorchero2 votes[deleted]
Penns18 votesK so lets see what Korean pros are building on the top mages in LCK recently...
Ori: https://i.gyazo.com/30cabda5a8b1c359286a5bf77251bbd5.png some Mercs there.. Syndra: https://i.gyazo.com/375179356f7dc12b910d7c883e7bd959.png here as well Taliyah: https://i.gyazo.com/06310c7a1f7323b5a447b0199fa523c0.png ye And LB https://i.gyazo.com/2ea1f1cc707d05109ea97fe829fa69c4.png hehe
Theorchero4 votesK so lets see what Korean pros are building on the top mages in LCK recently...
Ori: https://i.gyazo.com/30cabda5a8b1c359286a5bf77251bbd5.png some Mercs there.. Syndra: https://i.gyazo.com/375179356f7dc12b910d7c883e7bd959.png here as well Taliyah: https://i.gyazo.com/06310c7a1f7323b5a447b0199fa523c0.png ye And LB https://i.gyazo.com/2ea1f1cc707d05109ea97fe829fa69c4.png hehe
Chances are it's mostly to deal with Syndra, whose super common in the meta, or to avoid/reduce Elise or similar's stun.
Point is, Sorc shoes is default and superior, Merc treads is used in specific matchups to counter a specific playstyle the enemy is using. Against most mainstream champions it's useless beyond the MR it provides.
Penns26 votesMerc treads are always superior in a 1v1 tho, they leave you with 10 MR + you reduce their cc. I wouldnt expect de best players in de world to buy them at all if they were that bad.
Jesuszilla19 votesWhat kind of argument is that... of course merc treads are based on team comp/situation... ALL items are. You wouldn't build merc treads against a team of AD champions with no standard forms of CC that tenacity protects against. Is this just logic for the sake of arguing?
AirKingNeo1 votesBecause they buy it for MR, not tenacity.
Penns8 votesIf they are worth buying in pro play just for half of their stats, are they really bad tho?
hhaavviikk11 votesPeople saying merc treads are garbage are the same people that said Tabi were "fine" when everyone built them hehe xd
why not build tabi when merc treads does almost nothing when new champions keep getting knock-ups. Ornn - 2 knock-ups and a knockback kayn - has a knock-up Rakan - has a knock-up and charm Xayah - has a root Galio has 2 knock-ups and a taunt Camille has no knock-ups but a stun
just look at that, so many knock-ups it's ridiculous
Penns14 votesAnd what about the god tier champs? Sejuani - has stuns and slows Maokai- has slows and roots Thresh - has a stun and slows Elise - has a stun Cho - also has a slow and a silence Syndra - has a stun and a slow ...
OHminus12 votesI would argue that Syndra isn't god tier, and that a lot of the champs on the list also have knockups/knockbacks, but w/e
Penns6 votesSmall knockbacks like Seju Q and Thresh E yeah, but there is no point in reducing them since theyre... small
AirKingNeo7 votesConsidering Thresh invalidates melees very easily with his Q E spam, I'd love tenacity to be useful.
Also don't forget Janna.
AirKingNeo4 votesI thought Tabi was busted and I think Mercs suck. ADC damage is so high that bruisers always have to go Tabi basically.
and of course tanks are so tanky ADCs need to deal so much damage.
Vallalan10 votesmerc treads are not garbage. really underrating that tenacity. there's a reason people build merc vs shit like ahri even as a squishy often. because reducing long cc duration is huge.
if the enemy has pick tools like the aforementioned ahri charm, morg binding, maokai ult, syndra stun, then you really want that tenacity.
not to mention if you go the resolve tree, get the tenacity, get mercs you have 40% tenacity off those two alone. come late game a tank/bruiser can get the health elixir and reduce tenacity further (I believe 50% total tenacity after factoring in reductions for stacking tenacity). That's pretty damn good.
The main reason people go Tabi is because there are a lot of defensive items that help you vs burst magic damage. there are very little options vs burst physical damage. you have steraks, death's dance (sort of? not really though), GA, Zhonyas, Seraphs. and most of those you do not want to build on squishy carries. Like you won't see an ADC build sterak's or even death's dance (unless they are draven) and GA is only good when the passive is up.
I mean you see it in LCS and in high level games. Rumbles vs AD matchups with go ninja tabi over sorc boots, which you would think makes no sense as flat pen is SO good on rumble especially early. but rumbles have no options outside of armguard/zhonyas so they build both armguard + tabi early while rushing a health ap item like liandrys just to not get fucked up.
Riot really should look into introduce more AP/armor options as well as more anti burst tools for physical damage that squishies can build. obviously they gotta make sure that its balanced around sacrificing noticeable dps (like current GA does) but right now physical damage is just harder to deal with than magic damage.
LyingOnLine15 voteslul let's give this champion who tenacity does shit against the ability to increase the duration of his three knockups lul
Revali21 votesknockups don't get increased, but a brittle morgana q
the meme lives...
Theorchero9 votesknockups don't get increased, but a brittle morgana q
the meme lives...
Immobilizing effects get increased, as far as I can tell that counts as knockups.
Ralanr9 votesI don't think displacements and immobilizations are the same.
ModAcademy Kayn11 votesDisplacements are the True damage of CC, I'm pretty sure. Can't be reduced, but isn't effected by increasing effects. The number you see is what you get.
Glory ln Death3 votesMany knock-ups and knock-backs do have a stun of some duration attached to the end of them, though.
ModAcademy Kayn4 votesWhich is affected by Tenacity, but not the duration/length of the displacement itself.
Just Blame Jenny15 votesIf merc treads are garbage, why do I see them in so many of the challenger games I spectate? Are they just baddies? Should we have our resident silver-platinum board experts coach them?
TwinkiePro7 votesMR and general effectiveness against most CC. It's only really knockups that most people have a problem with.
Awhegark8 votesYasuo was becoming too weak, so Rito thinks 5 miles ahead by adding more knock ups for inderect Yasuo buffs.
Ariel the Cruel6 votesReally? You're going to hone in on the new champion's knock-ups as your example? Not the... I don't know... New status effect that extends hard CC?
Watching the ability video, it looks like he extended the Leona ult by about a second. Merc's reduces her stun by .45 seconds. (Default: 1.5 second stun) So he has a mechanic that negates tenacity on stuns and roots. (>_>)
Make knockups affected by tenacity. It's ridiculous that they are not.
The way Riot uses knock-ups, it could actually break things if they made that change. To clarify: there is no mechanical difference between a knock-up and a displacement.
[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjEOV5Ka,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2017-07-16T18:05:24.679+0000)
Fun trivia: Tenacity not affecting knock-ups was originally unintended. They kept it that way because having an unreducable form of CC was easier to balance.
What they should do is replace knock-ups with stuns except where really needed, then remove tenacity except where really needed (no longer purchasable). That will retain roughly the current game state without screwing over champions balanced around tenacity (Irelia). It will also make tenacity a strong kit-worthy addition for
Power creeptanks.
Votable Jester2 votesWell if you assume tenacity and brittle are both multipliers, it'll technically be more like tenacity counters brittle (just like how slows counter speed ups).
Ariel the Cruel3 votesOk, lets follow that thought.
Quoted is math.
We'll say Brittle is a 30% extension (matching merc's 30% tenacity).
On a 1 second stun, that's 0.3 seconds extension or reduction. If, Like MS modifiers, Brittle applies first: Ten only: 0.7 1 -> 1.3 1.3 x 0.3 = 0.39 1.3 -> 0.91 Change from base: 0.09 Change from Ten only: +0.21
Let's look at Morgana's 3 second root instead. Ten only: 2.1 3 -> 3.9 3.9 x 0.3 = 1.17 3.9 -> 2.73 Change from base: -0.27 Change from Ten only: +0.63
Now Ashe's full strength ult stun (longest in game): 3.5 seconds. Ten only: 2.45 3.5 -> 4.55 4.55 x 0.3 = 1.365 4.55 -> 3.185 Change from base: -0.315 Change from Ten only: +0.735
For reference: Lee Sin has (I think) the shortest immobilization, with a 0.25 second root on his ult. Followed by Leona with a 0.5 second root on Zenith Blade.
The change from the longest duration stun in the game when matching brittle and tenacity is less than half a second. On a 1 second stun, the change from the default value won't even be noticeable. The problem is, CC duration uses such small values that multiplicative modifications effectively cancel each other out. It works on MS modifiers because they use much larger values.
MS example:
The lowest possible MS a slow can work from is 325 (slow effects don't stack); so we'll use that. Again, 30% buff and 30% slow.
325 x 0.3 = 97.5 Buff only: 422.5 Slow only: 227.5
Buff + Slow 422.5 x 0.3 = 126.75 422.5 - 125.75 = 296.75
Change from base: -28.25 Change from slow only: +69.25
For reference:
provides +25 MS.
EDIT: Meddler confirmed, Brittle is a 30% extension.
TimX24968B5 votesWe need a new champ that actually has a silence or a taunt. No new champs have had that, riot. Its always slows, knockups, and stuns.
Ralanr4 votesYeah. I would like to see a tank with a silence.
TimX24968B2 votes
you called?
Ralanr7 votesI said tank, not juggernaut.
TimX24968B3 votesMalzahar was the last champion to have a silence as part of his kit (from the beginning, not counting 
's temporary one). he came out in 2010.
DarkRitual3 votesRakan's ult charm is the closest we've gotten.
Well, aside from supressions.
5050BS2 votesYa we need some more Hard CC resistance "Thing"
Currently we have Soft CC -Slow -Silence -Blind -Grounded
Hard CC -Stunned -Suppressed -Charmed -Feared
Then we have the GOD of CC -Knock up -Knock back -Knock Aside -Pull
Anything in the GOD of CC is the same as Hard CC but there are a CRAP TON more of them AND the are usually tide to attack champ or other champs damage or attacks.
We can deal with Most of the Soft and Hard CC with Tenacity but Knock**** is still GOD
Theorchero3 votessnip
We can deal with Most of the Soft and Hard CC with Tenacity but Knock**** is still GOD
Knockups were specifically designed to counter tenacity, because it was good at the time in preventing and limiting a lot of standard CC. But that's fine, because other boot choices like Mobis and company were actually viable, and they cost more, so it was a real opportunity cost to doing so. The reason knockups were created and introduced like they were was to accentuate a CC-orientated champion's kit in such a way so that their CRITICAL contribution would not be negated by tenacity. Alistar for example, prior to his WQ combo being mainstream, pretty much just Q'd in the teamfight at a relatively low cooldown. His entire contribution was his Q, so it had a knockup so that he wasn't useless.
Malphite, similarly, had his ult be a knockup so it's not useless.
But now everyone and their mother has displacements that cannot be reduced via tenacity. Even if you QSS the "stun" you still can't move while being knocked up, you can only flash. Now, not only is tenacity basically useless because every champion whose given a 1s or more CC has a knockup that isn't reduced via tenacity, other boot options are garbage, so we're forced to go to the only decent options left.
Tabis aren't crazy strong, they're just the only decent boots for someone whose not a mage or an adc.
Ariel the Cruel9 votesKnockups were specifically designed to counter tenacity
Actually. Knock-ups ignoring tenacity was originally a bug. They chose to keep it that way as a counter to tenacity.
ModAcademy Kayn7 votesThe last four are just called Displacement effects.
AirKingNeo4 votesAll of those but pull are considered Stuns+Airborne and can trigger Yasuo's ult.
IronwallJackson4 votesDisplacements all have disables attached to them as part of their effect, but they're still displacements.
notice me Sin pi1 votesroot/snare. Entangle. polymorph. Would u say they are soft or hard cc?
It Hertz When IP3 votesHard. Definitely. The first two REMOVE movement entirely, the last removes all ability to attack AND slows.
From what I understand, soft CC is anything that limits (but does not remove) the ability to either attack or move. Blind, for example, only affects basic attacks. Hard CC is something that completely blocks the target's ability to either move (root, snare), attack (polymorph), or both (stun).
Danjeng1 votesRoots and polymorphs aren't as lethal as a stun though. A stun is essentially the combination of both of them.
It Hertz When IP3 votesWell yeah. All CC are not created equal, especially for some champs; for example, I'd far rather be blinded than slowed if I'm playing Nami. They're still both considered soft CC though. Same with Root, Polymorph, and Stun; Stun might be literally both combined, but they're all considered "hard CC".
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