An Analysis of what damage creep is, and what has caused it (WARNING: WALL OF TEXT)

Theorchero··160 votes·9,759 views

FEAR NOT, THERE IS A TLDR AT THE BOTTOM

I opted to create a new thread because I believe this particular point warrants discussion, as I wanted to go over the origins of damage creep (which is starting to take roll in GP&B and other league related forums, so to prevent uneducated bandwagoning I wanted to create a conversation that isn't limited to one or two pages in an unrelated thread.)

Most of our core problems in today's league is because of damage creep.

Before I continue, I want to establish some basic definitions. I know these are pretty obvious for veterans but through the context of my thread I want to make sure it's very clear what class of champions I am talking about.

Damage creep (or any other type of, 'x' creep) is where over the course of a game's lifetime, certain older aspects become outdated because game designers are pressured to create more unique experiences. This results in every new champions/cards/characters/abilities/items etc (throughout many different game genres, particularly notable in trading card games) being relatively more powerful than the last to some extent.

Tanks very durable champions that deal moderate to low damage but have high utility and generally CC. They often have defensive steroids and may or may not have mobility. This class of champion is often confused with Bruiser/Fighters because they are often tanky, but typically build 1-2 damage items then go straight tank. The primary difference is that Tanks provide disruption and that is their main purpose, not diving enemy carries. Examples: Sejuani, Malphite, Maokai, etc.

Fighters relatively durable champions that tend to reside Top lane. Their job is provide DPS and to dive enemy carries, in order to do so they have to have enough base damage and tankiness in order to successfully dive teams. Their primary weakness is mobility, but not all fighters share this weakness; Typically, mobility is inversely proportional to durability. The more mobile, the less durable. Fighters specialize in sustained damage. Fighters that are behind (and then typically lack either the defenses or damage to kill enemy carries) are normally relegated to peeling instead of diving, as they have enough damage or CC to help prevent other fighters or tanks from disrupting their backline.

Juggernauts are a subset of Fighters. The reason they have an entirely different section is simple, the juggernaut update. Riot wanted to make Fighters and Juggernauts more distinct, so they added various Juggernaut items (most notably Dead Man's plate and revamped Black Cleaver) and slightly to moderately reworked a number of champions. Their goal was that Juggernauts' main weakness was their ability to close onto an enemy team; but once they got there (paid the price however so, flash, team ulti, etc) they thrived in the middle of combat, outputting large amounts of damage and taking significant punishment. The way they implemented this (juggernaut items) contributes to the overall problem of damage creep.

Here's a good video by Extra Credits about power creep in general, useful to watch as it helps bring this thread into perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

Onto the good stuff

In all of League's history, there have been many, many, many balance changes. Whole seasons worth. This helps keep the game fresh. The only problem with this, is that Riot has always preferred to buff weaker champions instead of gutting strong ones. Nerfs are issued all the time, but Riot normally tries to tackle an issue first by solving the underlying problems as to why that champion is so dominant. Typically these are additions of new items (or changes to items) or nerfs of a particular class or champion that kept that subset at bay. In early Season 5, Akali was extremely powerful because ADCs were extremely strong, and many of them had just been reworked (or still incredibly dominant as the case of Kalista) and were exceptionally mobile, so traditional assassins (who had fallen out of favor due to a very strong tank meta) were having difficulty killing the extremely powerful ADCs, so Akali rose to dominance. Her damage and reliability against highly mobile champions were unmatched, she was pick/ban until her range and reliability (the very reason she was picked) was nerfed.

That's just one example of the reason that certain champs rise and fall, but ultimately the primary balance lever that Riot utilizes is damage increases. Over the course of six seasons, champions deal way more damage than they used to, relatively to the ability for tanks to shrug off damage. In season 1 or two, a full tank shen could run most of the way from spawn to spawn while being pummeled by 5 people before finally dying. Now, he's lucky to last 5 seconds. If he's behind, he will be melted just as quick as a fed adc melts raptors, and with equal mercy.

Why is this a problem? Well, it's because damage has increased across the board. Once you're behind, you will never, bar few exceptions, match the enemies damage, the only way to come back is to catch someone out and force even fights because of that critical mistake. The reason that's the case is because base damage has increased and when I mean, base damage, I don't necessarily just mean the literal base damage of abilities. Just the damage that you'd expect any ability with part of or an entire core (not particularly fed, just on-track with reaching powerspikes at X time.) This being the case, damage items beyond the first (due to Juggernaut update, items with health and or other forms of durability, having also damage components) are incredibly strong, because you deal more damage than the enemy while also being simultaneously tankier than them, making it very hard for them to kill you. This just becomes even worse because when you're behind, you're not on-track to hit your power spike, so you take longer to reach a point that's already inferior.

So to truly understand damage creep, you have to understand tank creep. When S1 and S2 was around, again, tanks were fucking impossible to kill. The reason that Vayne was SO dominant is that because late game, she had the mobility and the raw damage to guarantee that she could punch through the enemies tanks. And as anyone that's high elo or has decent game knowledge should know, the team that wins a teamfight is the team whose tanks last longer (barring certain exceptions like carries being caught out and immediately killed) because they can peel for the backline to prevent their deaths so they can deal damage. So Vayne was strong late, but exceptionally weak early. This is a perfectly fine design decision and provides meaningful gameplay choices because if you opt to play late game, you should suffer verses early game bullies like Caitlyn. Well, then everything gets switched on its head. Vayne's late game gets nerfed because the base damage on her W let her kill squishies (which was there to help mitigate her crap early game) to help emphasize her late, except her late wasn't there anymore because she simply wasn't as effective as she used to be, and with moderate nerfs to tanks (introduction of the first iteration of black cleaver, improved last whisper, etc) she didn't warrant the weak laning phase.

This rose a problem with tanks still being hard to kill because certain release valves, like Vayne with % HP damage, to counter tanks building massive durability and being unkillable (while being fun for the tank, is really retarded for the enemy team to deal with) were gone. So they started to add those valves artificially back into the game. They added Botrk, Liandrys, etc. Various forms of % HP damage on champion abilities and on items, all to try and curb out the major problem; people were tanking too much and stalling games too hard. In my opinion, this is okay game design because all % HP damage does is help guarantee that you have certain contribution, granted it's not taken too far.

All of these things came together to obliterate tanks. They could no longer tank entire enemy teams due to the HP and resistances shred. And that's ok, except it left fighters in a really awkward state because they didn't have the damage to kill the carries in their now more-restricted time frame. Instead of 20-30 seconds, you have 5 seconds. Max. Fighters with few exceptions start falling out of favor, and in comes the league of assassins, in order to counter the insane damage of ADCs (who were that powerful in the first place in an attempt to kill tanks, (starting to make sense now?) but now instead of shredding tanks they were also OBLITERATING squishies which prompted the assassin meta.)

This is where the god-tier junglers of Kha, Lee, and J4 come into play. They were AD, so they had excellent clears, early pressure, and most importantly could snowball both top and bottom lane. Top so that if your top is ahead they could kill the enemy ADC, and bot so that if your ADC is ahead he can delete the entire enemy team. Yada Yada, and eventually Tanks had to rise again in order to peel for Carries (which they couldn't, because they felt like shit to play because they were completely outclassed in damage and ability to clear the jg) so enter Cinderhulk. Just about everyone knows what shit that started. Sej was buffed to include %HP damage and ran rampant, tanks started to delete squishies, etc. And the cycle continued, eventually culminating in the jugger update where damage items included HP.

OK, ENOUGH HISTORY PLEASE GET TO THE POINT / TLDR PLS

Alright alright. The problem with league at the moment is that damage items are inseparable from tank stats. Most bruiser/damage items include health of some kind. ADCs get lifesteal and a shield from BT, Tanks and bruisers and certain bullshit cigar-missing ADCs get health and damage from jugger items, etc. Basically, all of the high-ticket items that deal a lot of damage increase health to some degree to help counter that tanks deal fuckloads of damage now due to those jugger items in and of itself. This leads to the problem that when you're ahead, you're simultaneously building defense and offense, which is fucking bullshit. Damage creep has occurred mostly due to Riot's policy of buffing instead of nerfing and wanting for explosive games that are good for LCS viewership.

SOLUTION

Reduce damage across the board by about 20%. Rework items so that their focus is on defense or offense. If they are for both, then both need to be significantly weaker than items of that budget that focuses on one. (This is why rylais is broken.) ADCs should have to take time to kill tanks. Tanks should not be dealing much damage at all except to jungle or minions. They need to have DISRUPTION, not damage, be their primary way of engaging or peeling. Fighters need sustained damage, not burst. Reduce penetration of bonus defenses. Tanks stacking defenses should fucking mean something, and ADCs should not be able to have 2-3 tank items and still be capable of deleting people.

Thanks for reading. let me know what you think below.

EDIT: Okay, so numerically speaking (as in number of instances) Riot has tended to nerf more than buff. But what I meant to say (but will not edit for the sake of clarity) was that the impact of previous damage increases/buffs was much greater than that of nerfs. This leads to a slow but steady upward trend.

157 Comments

Mistress Shyvana48 votes

Such a beautiful FUCKING post. Yet nobody cares or anything.

Fucking disgusting.

Sorry for language >~>

Theorchero6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mistress Shyvana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MrKILxHs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:15:08.110+0000)

Such a beautiful FUCKING post. Yet nobody cares or anything.

Fucking disgusting.

Sorry for language >~>

Yeah :(.

And it's okay :)

Warlord Zudane2 votes

I think it's a point that's too complicated for people to easily address. My favorite ADC is Tristana and she is completely squishy. I try to build items that give some health and damage - just like you said. And when it reaches late game if I can stay behind the lines I can take down a tank in 3 seconds or an assassin in 1.3. Sucks being squishy, but by this point I am relatively easily poking and taking damage without getting hurt too much. Far more gutsy than early game and I still don't build defensive. I don't think it should be nerfed totally for the weapons, but rather that the weapons should scale.

I think that to make items balanced they need to scale more than be flat numbers. Yea, flat numbers are easy: but balance is complicated. We can't have an easy solution to a complicated problem and expect it to work consistently. Make offensive items add a % to health, make it more amusing on mage items just to avoid messing things up and make the % bonus come from AP, say a bonus of (5% AP)% to your health. This way you need AP to get the bonus effect of it but without a high AP it's useless. Then tanks avoid buying it for bonuses and mages can't buy it just for huge bonuses and no drawback.

Nothing else I'd love to see scaling factors on weapons. It makes more sense to say that a sword would give you +45*AD Factor instead of a flat 100 damage. If a champ is AD heavy then their AD factor is higher, say put it at 2.5 (makes the item give 112.5 AD) but if a champ is designed for speed not damage (like Yi) then a lower AD factor of say 1.6 balances out with a higher Attack Speed factor (and the item would give only 72AD).

I think it opens up a world of possibilities for balance where we aren't having a problem where one item is being abused by someone that shouldn't have bought it.

Woook3r1 votes

This post was not only wrong, it was stupid and self contradictory. If you nerf dmg so you can nerf tank, then what have you done? Nothing. You did nothing.

Theorchero3 votes

{quoted}

This post was not only wrong, it was stupid and self contradictory. If you nerf dmg so you can nerf tank, then what have you done? Nothing. You did nothing.

It's almost like you skimmed the thread without having any actual counterarguments.

The whole point is to make someone CHOOSE defense or offense, NOT BOTH.

A SHIT ton of items have both to high degrees which results in snowballing becoming a brick wall instead of an uphill battle.

If you reduce the damage, you also make it so the game is less explosive in general because carries have to build glass cannon to deal with bruisers, but can no longer drain tank because the defensive component of their offensive items was removed. No more lifesteal shield or excessive healing. Tanks now don't oneshot carries by building tanks, they kill them with sustained damage.

Right now everyone is building damage because except for a few items, damage=defense, and raw tank builds are inferior when behind but oppressive when ahead because they have CC tanks bursting carries like assassins but you also have carries with a couple items having more tankiness, shred, and damage than someone struggling to build defensive items.

See the problem?

Jesus is Savior15 votes

tl;dr, but I would like to mention one thing: keystones.

Keystones fucking broke the game as far as damage is concerned.

Keystones are why certain champions can 100-0 you at level 3 in under a second with no items.

General Levi8 votes

List the champions that can do that please,

Dextix LT13 votes

Thats an exxageration, however keystones ARE a problem.

Metharius4 votes

thunderlord is the worst .

i remmember using 2 or 3 skills as a mage skill to down a target from 10 to 50 ... the thunderlord proc and he was down to 20 ... using thunderlord = having an additionnal automatic skill every 15-25 sec ...

also AD have SO MUCH way to have sustain and life steal is terrific.. couple it with all their ad+hp or damage resist item (like simitar Maw) it s unfair ... i would prefer nerfing tunderlord and give Spell vamp to the keystone who give LS based on your missing health. because now to counter the LS or regen, if you are ap had to use thunderlord to burst down their target.

Dextix LT4 votes

Oh believe me, you dont have to tell me about how thunderlord is simply bullshit. I play ap offtank jungle zac. With my build, i have moderate damage if not fed. With thunderlord, i can kill someone squishy outright....

Zirzon14 votes

I feel like the mastery update (particularly keystones) also contributed to damage creep, though I haven't seen any math on it.

Limrick13 votes

People whine about a tank meta while a Jinx can quite literally stand still and right click a tank and kill them in less time than the tank's cooldowns come back up. The problem isn't tanks, tanks are goddamn useless, I can't even remember the last time I saw a champ build only defense. Even Maokai and Malphite , the most stereotypically tank champs, have to get at least an item 3001 to even be relevant. Tank meta is not a thing, the tanks just hold people down so the carries do the killing, they're glorified CC bots. Before you say it, yes that's the idea, but they're also supposed to be a major threat on the battlefield, whereas now they just get ignored after they already used their ults. Tanks are supposed to, hey, tank damage, not be ignored until the fight is already over. When most people say Tank meta, what they mean is Bruiser meta, building damage then full tank. A true tank will not get a single damage item, as they don't need to. They're a bullet sponge, not a nuke. Garen is not a true tank, Illaoi is not a true tank, Trundle is not a true tank. True tanks are these guys: Zac Volibear Taric TahmKench Sion Singed Shen Sejuani RekSai Rammus Poppy Olaf Maokai Malphite DrMundo Alistar And the only reason you ever see any of these is because they don't build full tank, they build an item 3001 , or a item 3071 , because they have no choice but to have damage so they aren't useless.

The problem is things like lifesteal. I'm perfectly okay with a late-game ADC shredding through tanks, that's their job after all; but when they HEAL during a fight while the tank is unloading everything they have, there's a problem. Hell, Riot took out spell vamp because it was "OP", but honestly, think about this:

  1. Auto attacks are free, no mana cost, no cooldowns

  2. Auto attacks can crit, which can make a Caitlyn do more damage with a single auto than an entire Lux ult

  3. Auto attacks apply on-hit effects, like item 3153 item 1419 item 3022 item 3057

  4. Auto attacks can heal the user, for free

In contrast, mages for example have:

  1. High damage spells, cost mana(usuallyVladimir ) and have cooldowns

  2. Only certain spells can apply on-hit effectsEzreal

  3. Spells cannot crit, they will always deal predictable damage (bar TLD, which is also a huge problem)

  4. Spells can BARELY heal a select few champs, or with the right runes/masteries, while also having a cooldown and costing mana

I propose the outright removal of lifesteal from items, except for item 3072 , which should have an effect to heal for a chunk of damage on a relatively long cooldown (30 sec). item 3153 should lose the lifesteal and get more AD to compensate. item 3074 needs to drop the lifesteal and just give some CDR. item 3812 is whatever, it's effect is pretty unique and cool. item 3139 does such a powerful item REALLY need lifesteal?(#MakeQSSGreatAgain)

A marksman going into a fight and coming out with more health than they started with is just absurd. Survivability for a marksman should came from kiting, peel, and outplays, not simply standing still and rightclicking.

Can't wait for the legions of hate from salty ADC mains who complain about "muh tanks"

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

I wouldnt say tanks are useless. They are far from it imo. Their engage and cc is, in many games, the deciding factors in games. Without tanks you have no initiation, sieging is difficult, peeling is harder, and the enemy team can itemize better against you. Tanks do in fact have the highest win rate as far as junglers and top laners go for a reason XD

Spinning Axes12 votes

tanks should be able to 1v1 carries

not oneshot them

MunchCrunchLunch10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spinning Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MrKILxHs,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-07-26T02:16:47.052+0000)

tanks should be able to 1v1 carries

not oneshot them

top laners usually snowball and one shot the adc thats 3-4 levels behind because they are most of the time way ahead in levels. at late game everyone level 18 even with a pre nerfed ekko a tristana standing still killed me in a cpl seconds. i was full tank. and i did no damage to her because bt and attack speed heal her too much. a behind jinx 3 levels behind me did 4k damage in 5 seconds while a 11/4 mid lane mage did like 500 damage to me with a full rotation.

damage creep is caused by adc damage increases. if anything the amount of damage tank deals is same if not less. if you ignore keystones like thunderlords. the problem is that a lot of non tank champs are being played like tanks while having a lot of damage

it starts with first. nerfing damage across the board. and then nerfing the adc itemization trust me you can't nerf an adc enough to reduce their damage I mean most of an adc power is from the items.

Mandang012 votes

{quoted} The only problem with this, is that Riot has always preferred to buff weaker champions instead of gutting strong ones.

Uhh.... what?

Riot focuses their efforts on the champs who are a problem to the most players, which are the OP champs that get picked/banned, not the underpowered ones. This is literally what Riot's said for years about why they prefer to nerf rather than buff - that nerfing one OP champ introduces less creep than buffing all of its competition. This is why Zed's been tweaked more times in a couple months than Galio's been buffed in a couple years.

Items offering both defensive and offensive stats isn't a problem, and the only difference between building 2 mixed items and buying 1 pure offense item with one pure defense item is the timing at which you hit the balance. I've seen very few people complaining about this problem at first item (most of the supposed Rylai's abusers aren't rushing it). Also, the fact that people are complaining about Rylai's, but not about RoA - a cheaper item with more HP - should tell you something about what Rylai's problem is (if it has one at all).

Reducing ALL damage is: Ridiculous - When's the last time ANYTHING in the game has been changed by 20%? Overreactionary - What suddenly caused damage to be 20% higher this season? Not a targeted solution - Do you honestly think all champs need their damage nerfed the same amount?

Now the part tank mains hate hearing: Risk/reward is a real thing in the game, and the ADC who builds all glass should outscale the tank who builds full defense. This isn't saying tanks should be bad at tanking, this is saying that you can't build a balanced game where there's no incentive to choose the riskier build (ADC's) over the safe build (tank's). On top of that, you need to have classes be weak to other classes, just like rock-paper-scissors. Who's supposed to beat tanks? It's ADCs.

I actually agree that damage is too high, but I think you're looking in all of the wrong places. If you want to do damage, you should have to actually build damage, however Riot's been spoonfeeding tanks %HP damage, they put thunderlord's/grasp/fervor in the game, and the IBG/Sunfire builds from this season are a perfect example of getting damage without committing to building it. CDR is one of the most underrated DPS stats in the game, yet it's not a solely offensive stat but instead increases utility/mobility/even durability in some cases.

Tihs is very different from something like Rylai's, where even if the item has both offense and defense, you still have to pay for the offense (and Rylai's stat efficiency isn't remarkable for its price point, even considering the slow's gold value). After all, Ekko was far more successful building IBG/sunfire than he ever was building the offense/defense AP items, even after his ratios got buffed. Sure, he got nerfed, but before he got nerfed he still wasn't building these offense/defense AP items.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

the reasons i fear riot wont make true tanks (champions like maokai, sion, shen) ever viable on a 6 item defensive build and always force them to build into bruiser builds (ap/defense, ad/defense)

because of the LC$ and pro play.

i know a lot of the games problems get blamed on pro play. but in this case its legitemately the problem. riot is afraid of something people call "noodle fights". a situation where 2 tanks lane against each other and are never able to kill each other.

so top lane or any lane between 2 tanks just become passive farming lanes for 15 to 20 minutes.

that doesnt make for a very interesting spectator game. they want action packed games with early dives and flashy plays from the first minutes on to please the crowd and keep the viewer count for professional games up.

its the same reason theyre buffing highly mobile champions and "play makers" around the patches that worlds are goign to be played on. if you look into the recent balance history, it included changes and buffs to champions like nidalee, vayne, lee sin and other flashy mobile assassin type champions.

ive played this game in older seasons. people dont remember it anymore, but the game used to be a lot more strategic and farm orientated. top lane, jungle and a lot of other lanes were generally played a lot less aggressive early on and safe, with people trying to get the edge on their opponents by outfarming them. lane phase pretty much always took 20 minutes until people felt ready to roam, rotate and teamfight.

this game generally felt good for the players, but wasnt as interesting to watch. with riot branching out into esports, they put less and less focus on the strategic part of the game, and more on the fast paced action that used to be reseved for mid and lategame roams and teamfights, and pushed for more early agression all over the map.

the recent changes to turret first blood and making the bot lane turret significantly weaker than the other turrets are exactly for the same reason to force early aggression around bot lane.

6 item defensive tanks who purely rely on survivability and cc simply dont fit into their ideal of an interesting champion to be watched in pro play.

Poske2 votes

Such a big wall Of post yet you are just outright wrong

If we assume that Champion power budget in 2010 was 30 000 (Random number) Nowdays its around 20 000

Sorry to dissapoint you but there is no damage creep in league.

Riot has been nerfing Champions since league of legends came out

List me 1 patch where most of the changes are buffs rather then nerfs.. It would be like finding a needlee... however it goes

Your flatout not correct "Damage creep has occurred mostly due to Riot's policy of buffing instead of nerfing and wanting for explosive games that are good for LCS viewership."

I have been reading patch notes since 2010. Riot has been nerfing 75% of time and buffing 25% of time. AND I AM BEING FKING GENEROUS..

Also Take a look at the Moba called Strife. That game has Hero Power budget at like 15 000 which makes half of the roster boring and simplistic

Trust me Damage creep is what League of legends could use

Fun fact. Guess one of the few reasons why ekko is ap. Its easier to make overloaded ap champion then ad champion in terms of power budget. another reason is that ekko is intellectual or something

An ability which brings back time couldnt be on AD champion because of power budget. If ekko came in 2013 he would be AD

Theorchero27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MrKILxHs,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-07-26T03:44:31.309+0000) snip

Oh look, someone who only read the barest HINT of my post and is now here to state how fucking incorrect I am. Allow me to educate you.

YES, damage creep is a thing, RELATIVE TO DEFENSIVE ITEMS.

Did you read that part?

RELATIVE. TO. DEFENSIVE. ITEMS.

Carries EXPLODE each other because they have more damage than they used to. Have you even played in S1/S2? Tanks were fucking unkillable. Now, carries have more damage than they used to on top of more survivability because survivability and damage items are now intrinsically linked. You get one with the other. This is the reason that the game is in such a shit state.

They not only get more damage than you, they get tankier than you. So if you build tank, you won't be anywhere near killing them while they will kill you just as fast. But if you build damage, they will tank out your damage and kill you first.

See the fucking problem now?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Um, I've killed plenty of carries and have seen plenty of carries get killed so what you allege to exist is not being observed at all.

Dextix LT23 votes

That is your argument? That you have killed carries?

It's like me making an argument that pre-nerfs kassadin was not broken because i beat him once.

Its illogical.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It's like me making an argument that pre-nerfs kassadin was not broken because i beat him once. i beat him once. once.

Um, could you point out to me where I said once, bucko?

Oh, and way to ignore the second part of my argument, try reading it again so you understand it before you start talking [slayer-jinx-wink]

Dextix LT5 votes

Um, I've killed plenty of carries and have seen plenty of carries get killed

Personal experience, you have personaly seen or killed many carries yourself.

so what you allege to exist is not being observed at all.

** Because of that, the persons argument that you responded to, is invalid.**

We can read your arguments, bucko. We are not stupid. Your "Argument" relies on personal experience, saying that since you have killed many carries and have seen them killed, means that the problem discussed in this thread does not exist.

No one ignored any part of your "Argument", because that is what your "Argument" boils down to.

Let me change a few words.

OP: Kassadin is op, he has no real counters and is banned 99% of the time (Include calculations and analysis).

ME: Um, i've killed plenty of kassadins and have seen plenty of kassadins get killed, so what you allege to exist is not being observed at all.

Its the same "Argument" and it is useless, because it provides no information or argumentation, personal experience doesn't matter, arguments and analysis does.

Just because you can kill something, doesn't make it balanced.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

No my argument is that what the OP claims exist doesn't exist because it hasn't been observed to exist.

OP claims that once people are ahead they stay ahead because of items that allow people to build offense and defense at the same time.

My counter argument is that I've killed Marksmen who are apparently building offense and defense and therefore should apparently stay in the lead once they have the lead.

My counter argument is that I've seen Marksmen who are apparently building offense and defense and therefore should apparently stay in the lead once they have the lead get their asses killed.

Numerically, these Marksmen in the lead should stay in the lead since they are building both offense and defense since they have higher numbers.

This has been observed to be not the case.

#it has been observed that people with these high numbers that OP rails against lose. My question to you is how are these people with higher numbers losing?

Dextix LT3 votes

Now replace all you said, with pre-nerf kassadin. Its your personal experience, and many different factors affect whether or not a champ wins or loses.

You claim that what the op is saying because YOU haven't observed that it exists. You use your personal experience to counter a theoretical argument, which is silly.

Items and build paths are but only 1 part that affects a person dying or winning. However, it is an important part, and yes, marksmen who build defense and offense are stronger than they should be and offer less counterplay. Them getting beaten doesn't mean there is no problem.

In the old days, whenever i saw someone play kassadin, many times they failed when he was not banned. They didn't have experience with the champ, thus losing horribly. Does this mean that Kassadin was not op? No, he was op. Despite the champion being op, people lost with him. And it was not because he was weak, but because OTHER factors ALSO affect victory or loss.

Even though people with high numbers lose, it doesn't mean that they lose because the numbers are alright. Because other factors also affect it. However, looking at theory, yes, people with higher numbers are more likely to win, because they are objectively stronger in such a case.

LOL is not a stat check game. While stats matter, other factors also affect victory or loss. You dont stand in one place using all skills off cd. Thus you oversimplifying the problem and saying that death or victory depends only on stats is false. Because that is not the argument that op made.

Damage creep and damage + defence items are a problem, despite you or me killing then, they are still a problem, because we won due to other factors, this does not mean that everything is ok, because such items indeed give a big advantage they shouldn't. Just because i have won many times against pre-nerf kassadin, it doesn't mean kassadin was not op.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Thus you oversimplifying the problem and saying that death or victory depends only on stats is false. Because that is not the argument that op made. Because that is not the argument that op made.

What you said.

The problem with league at the moment is that damage items are inseparable from tank stats.

What OP said.

Read it again. All he talks about are numbers.

marksmen who build defense and offense are stronger than they should be

No they are just as strong as they should be. Lots of dmg but squishy as fuck so they need to play positioning and/or team support.

such items indeed give a big advantage they shouldn't

Why not? I build item 3053 item 3071 on every bruiser and still get blown up so it seems like the tank stats you get from those items aren't 100% super op. They help you survive long enough when you get your execution right, when you get your positioning right, when you are casting your spells on the right targets

Dextix LT3 votes

MARKSMEN

You talk about bruisers. There is a difference between the two. Having tank/damage items for bruisers is good, because that is what they need.

However, these days even marksman items give too much defenses. Marksmen should have no defenses, only damage (Depends on adc kit). That is how they are balanced. If you give them both at the same time, it is not a good thing.

Marksmen should be squishy, but current marksman items give a lot of unnecessary defenses to champs that should have none.

jwn81755 votes

NEWS FLASH SIR: At some point in everyone's career of LoL, we all have killed carries before.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I'm going to assume that you didn't completely miss the point of my argument and are agreeing with me.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

jwn81752 votes

So basically your argument is: because you have killed carries before, that means OP argument is completely irrelevant and not being observed at all? Brilliant. Someone give this person a prize.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Read the argument again homie, it's a two parter observation

[slayer-jinx-wink]

jwn81751 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MrKILxHs,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T05:06:27.958+0000)

Um, I've killed plenty of carries and have seen plenty of carries get killed so what you allege to exist is not being observed at all.

Your argument. Do I need to say more?

Tobias Brackner2 votes

And just for the sake of clarity you claimed:

So basically your argument is: because you have killed carries before

Alright so here we go! Computer, bring up my observation!

I've killed plenty of carries and have seen plenty of carries get killed

Computer, enhance what this silly-billy is claiming is the sole observation

because you have killed carries before

Computer, don't you think he's a silly-billy? #Yes I do Tobias Oh I love you so much. Computer, enhance the second part of my observation that Silly-Billy completely ignored.

have seen plenty of carries get killed

Hm...that might not be enough for him. Enhance.

have seen plenty of carries get killed

So Billy, do you see now how you have fucked up?

jwn81751 votes

Your "two parter observation" is still only based on you. So just based on your observation alone, proves op wrong. Sounds good to me. Typing that silly script isn't going to prove your point further, nor does insulting and adding profanities. You might stab someone with all that edge. Sounds like your the one that didn't get my point. Cute effort.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Ok, so you are changing your argument from misrepresenting my statement to the idea that a single person's observation means nothing?

Also you don't stab people with edge, you cut them

[slayer-jinx-wink]

jwn81751 votes

I didn't change anything, you failed to realize what I meant with that attitude.

Oh man, picking on my word choices, that's real cute of you.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Wait, so you are saying that it's my fault that when you say:

So basically your argument is: because you have killed carries before

That I mistakenly believe that you mean you think my argument is only based on me killing carries? That I have no other evidence to support my conclusion even though I put that evidence in the statement and you completely ignored it?

Because that is literally what you did. If you want I can bring back the computer to show you how you literally misrepresented my argument.

Also #picks on my words #gets salty when I pick on his words

jwn81751 votes

But your only evidence was YOU have killed carries before, and YOU have seen carries been killed before. All based on YOU. So what YOU experience undermines what op has experienced and what other people have experienced. Sorry to break it to you, but that's not "evidence". If my previous phrasing has caused you to misinterpret my meaning, that may be my fault. However, that still doesn't prove that you are right or I am wrong. You are completely missing my point and the point of this argument by picking on word choices, which is pointless.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

If my previous phrasing has caused you to misinterpret

You literally said.

So basically your argument is: because you have killed carries before, that means

You very clearly misrepresented my argument. Don't try to worm your way out of misrepresenting someone's argument, you did a scumbag.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Sorry to break it to you, but that's not "evidence"

Goodness gracious! Eye-witness testimony isn't evidence??? Thank goodness court systems across the world throw that shit out the moment it's presented amirite?

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

MeDicenWera2 votes

If they try to correct you, send them to check tank Ekko, Fizz, Yasuo, Akali for more information on how bases are high, and Tank Items all include various forms of offense.

doiminat0r36001 votes

Says TLDR at bottom

Doesn't put a TLDR.

rubberduckie6668 votes

{quoted}

Says TLDR at bottom

Doesn't put a TLDR.

" OK, ENOUGH HISTORY PLEASE GET TO THE POINT / TLDR PLS

Alright alright. The problem with league at the moment is that damage items are inseparable from tank stats. Most bruiser/damage items include health of some kind. ADCs get lifesteal and a shield from BT, Tanks and bruisers and certain bullshit cigar-missing ADCs get health and damage from jugger items, etc. Basically, all of the high-ticket items that deal a lot of damage increase health to some degree to help counter that tanks deal fuckloads of damage now due to those jugger items in and of itself. This leads to the problem that when you're ahead, you're simultaneously building defense and offense, which is fucking bullshit. Damage creep has occurred mostly due to Riot's policy of buffing instead of nerfing and wanting for explosive games that are good for LCS viewership. "

Tobias Brackner1 votes

So, here's the thing.

Idk about dmg creep being a bad thing.

Personally I'm happier with people building dmg and survivability across the board cuz so long as the dmg wins out you get more explosive games where there is a lot of set up and one huge push, which I also like cuz that can mean shorter games too.

Dextix LT8 votes

And this ends up in stomp games. Which is not good, or interesting.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Not really.

After all, since no one can reliably become an unkillable god there will always be room for outplays through better positioning and coordination.

To me it seems like all this will do is facilitate the victory the team that has better map presence and individual play. If there is every a stomp, it's because one team is clearly better players.

Dextix LT2 votes

No, a stomp can happen just because the enemy has stronger champions or 1 item more.

What you are saying stops any comebacks from happening, because once one team gets ahead it will be near impposible to reach them.

This results in one sided stomps that no one likes.

Not because the team is better, but because due to the system the opposing team is given no tools to catch up in the case of losing.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

You literally ignored the concept of outplay through positioning and better mechanical skill.

Like, literally didn't even address it as a counter point.

You see, in a conversation, you want to respond to what the other person is saying.

Try again homie.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Dextix LT2 votes

If we consider an equal skill match up, where both teams are equally capable. The one that starts to snowball first, will win. Because the opposition will not have better positioning or mechanics because both of them are equal in those.

Snowballing also actually requires less skill than stopping that snowball. If there is a fed zed, even if you are good, it will be near impposible to survive. For him , it will require a few buttons.

Having more damage and added defenses to attack items is not prefferable as it will increase the snowball effect, making the enemy, not only have better damage, but better defences.

The matchmaking tries to make an equal skill match up, and more often than not, it actually succeeds, at that time snowball effect gets strong.

Everyone should have their jobs. And items should have their purpose. If you build a damage item, it should give only damage, so the enemy can catch up. If you build a tank item, it should give only tankyness. Then the game is balanced. Everyone has their role and you don't have mages with 2.5-3k hp running around.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

If we consider an equal skill match up, where both teams are equally capable. The one that starts to snowball first If we consider an equal skill match up The one that starts to snowball first equal snowball

If both teams are equal skill then neither will snowball. Because they are equal.

Dextix LT2 votes

No, because again, victory depends on many different variables, skills and items are only a part of it. You are again, oversimplifying a system that depends on many variables.

More from Gameplay

More by Theorchero