Regarding the newest Riot Video

Malicious Metal··28 votes·2,788 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9flvYe_DOA

First of all; Mad Kudos to Riot for wanting to keep the game fresh and trying to give us new ways of playing the game. And of course that entails opening up the rather stale meta by allowing champions to be played in various positions without just being regarded as gimmicks.

One of the things talked about is making Melee champions a viable pick bot lane and what's more important: Allowing Teamcomps to function without a Marksman pick

And I'm pretty excited about that! So, let's use this opportunity to talk not about IF's but HOW's of opening the usual carry position up for different classes!


Why are Marksmen the primary bot lane class right now?

To understand how to make other picks viable we need to first address what makes Marksmen the undisputed kings of bot lane right now;

-Objective Control/Sieging Games aren't won by simply kills alone but OBJECTIVES are usually the thing deciding a game. Be it towers, dragons, barons, you almost always need an ADC to tear them down from range

One issue that would help with tower pushing would be giving Melee champions a damage boost against structures when with their team, to allow them to siege more easily and NOT make Tryndamere a pick or ban champion

-Reliable RANGED DPS Marksmen damage is obscene, and it's both reliable and hurts a ton! They're needed to carry fights where a mage's burst combo isn't enough or when there's a need to shred beefy targets

To make them less of a necessity in these kinds of scenarios I'd revamp the way ADC's work in them becoming more based around both RELIABILITY and RANGE when it comes to their damage and not primarily how much they hurt once they finish their crit items. For Marksmen to become less of a requirement to win they need to deal less damage but be compensated in other ways, probably either durability or trying to flesh out their niches. I.E Jhin and Caitlyn as the sniper characters or Lucian/Graves as the Kiting spellslinger character

-Late game needs to become more than just the domain of Marksmen I'd change the way crit works and help open up late game to other classes by allowing them to scale better, COMPARED to marksmen. It's not about just amping up everyone's carry potential but try finding a middle ground between the classes you intend to go bot lane


#I'd go about this with a mix of both Systemic and Item changes

Allowing certain classes to go bot lane requires more than just item changes but also a slew of system adjustments. Some of the major things worth considering:

-XP gains Duo lane is primarily Marksmen territory because bruisers and mages needs LEVELS to do their job, changing how XP share functions in a duo lane and how it's acquired would be one way to allow these classes to have more early/mid game power to stand up to regular ADC's

-Objective damage and Towers Introducing debuffs or other ways to give Mages/Bruisers a way to contribute to objectives is also a way to make them on par with Marksmen' relentless Ranged dps. Taking X% more damage from melee champions or giving AP champions's AA's a %Ap component to objectives would be one way to do it

In terms of items we need to realize that Bruisers are always going to have a ranged disadvantage and items should help them amend this a bit. They struggle maneuvering through teamfights and thus I suggest changes that try remedy that. I'd COMPLETELY revamp the TENACITY stat and make it more windowed ANTI-CC effects that allow melee characters to skillfully outmaneuver CC and kiting in 5v5 scenarios.

In the same vein i'd introduce items that are tailored to this very task, giving them UNIQUE passive/actives so that they can't be stacked but provide about 3ish alternatives so one may adapt to the given circumstances. Be it situational, brief CC negation against teams with a few very powerful cc's, a persistent CC reduction effect over a longer time frame against heavy cc teams or speedup/blinks/hastes similar to Protobelt/Ghostblade against slippery teams.

As for starting items Bruisers especially struggle against ranged opponents, be it top or bot, and staring items should give them SOME defence to remedy that, though i'd make it less overbearing and more about windowed effects that allow for an interesting power dynamic between Marksmen lanes and bruiser/mage lanes.


#A Mage-Bruiser bot laner already exists though!

One that combines strengths from both melee champions and mages

I'm of course talking about MORDEKAISER

While some people still deem his rework to be a failure I've grown extremely fond of him, more so than pre rework. He was an experiment to open up botlane for other non-marksmen picks but a few issues made him fail in that regard:

-He was SHOEHORNED bot lane Riot should OPEN positions up and not force champions into a specific lane. Morde failed because he could NOT be played in a solo lane for those who prefer to play him there but with the changes in patch 6.1 this was changed Mordekaiser's rework would've been a huge success if he was released in his 6.1 state

-He was overpowered He was nerfed repeatedly after release but in 5.16 he was grossly Op, and a champion should not rely on numbers alone to be a viable pick.

When Riot goes about this on a more widespread angle, allowing MORE champions bot lane Mordekaiser would no longer be a black sheep but actually one of a few select champions that can roll bot lane instead of your usual marksman pick.

And he fits this role to a tee. He's a very selfish MELEE champion who's all about DAMAGE and DURABILITY. One that can serve as a team's main damage pump and who values objectives just as much as Marksmen due to his Dragonforce passive.

When Riot finally opens the map up more Mordekaiser will rise again with more champions to fill the same niche, no longer being a guinea pig but an actual SUPPORTED Niche pick.

Don't trust me that he works still?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/299493047899521024/404628435147816962/kda.JPG

https://youtu.be/x0XVYu88vmQ


In conclusion I am really looking forward to what Riot has in store for role diversity and I'm fully supporting this notion. It would allow for so many different team comps focusing on different playstyles and it bring more life to bot lane, the lane that has been stale for the past few seasons anyways! With marksmen no longer being the ONE bot lane carry role they could finally be allowed to be their own champions as well, being allowed to roll solo lanes like they did in season 1 and become their own class, beyond just "Yo, you go bot and you do ranged pew pew damage"

But what are your thoughts on this matter, I always enjoy discussions like these!

27 Comments

Chromatic Eagle15 votes

I'm of course talking about MORDEKAISER

I mean, when aren't you?

Ahristocats5 votes

quotting maple nectar:

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LTMxGH15,comment-id=0003000200000001,timestamp=2018-01-21T00:16:07.274+0000)

Definitely agree with the short list. Some of the other things that we need to make sure are that they can contribute to objectives (turrets, dragon etc) meaningfully in early/mid game, as well as scale up adequately with game length so that you're not gimping yourself if you take a melee bot into a ranged bot and lose when the game gets to 30 because they're able to take objectives faster. These are all just things on very long lists of problems we'll need to solve for it, but I'm excited.

See, Melees already scale well with game length

Mordekaiser is able to kill a 8k hp cho in 4 sec in late game (malicious feel free to post your gif) as fast as a 6 slots vayne in late game Thing is Melees are unreliable it's rare for them to dish out all of their damage in teamfight unlike marksmen

So Riot announced that they would introduce items to make compositions without marksmen working

and i can only think about 2 items

http://i.imgur.com/1v8JBdH.png

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4jm81wAd7dk/hqdefault.jpg

i'm sorry but what else? Melees are as reliable as ranged in dota2 because of blink dagger and black king bar

Now Now Riot might have other ideas of items to make melees more reliable, but feel free to tell me what kind of items can make melees more reliable other than: -a blink -cc immunity for a very short duration

i feel like Tryndamere MasterYi would be op with it, but they need a rework in the first place so they should not hold the balance of melees in hostage

Penns2 votes

But unlike adcs, melee champs need counterplay so they wouldnt make blink dagger :)

Ahristocats4 votes

i don't really care about blink dagger at this point of the game tbh but i do care about BKB

tenacity is garbage and it doesn't even have gameplay because it's permanent

BKB is more effective and has gameplay built in it you need a good reaction time to BKB in time, because you can't use it while being cc'ed you need to use it on the right moment the right timing

it's way more skilled than tenacity

Penns2 votes

Ye but league items are garbage compared to dota so youd have to nerf it a lot. 100% magic damage reduction + cc immunity for 10 seconds lel also another item to fuck fizz over because delays :[

Ahristocats1 votes

yea reduce it to 3 seconds or something

Penns1 votes

Idk if it would be balanced even then tbh. Negating Syndra ult, Fizz ult and stuff with an offensive item. If they ever do it I think they would at least give it a delay like item 3814

Ahristocats1 votes

make it a morgana black shield

don't give 100% magical immunity, but like a scaling magical damage shield that lasts 3 seconds and gives cc immunity for the duration

Penns2 votes

If it replaces Hexdrinkner/Maw Im in [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Ahristocats1 votes

i do agree [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Flyinguillotine3 votes

Just make it block CC, not magic damage. That way it gives cc counter-play without making mages irrelevant.

Penns2 votes

they should make bot an assassin role since they arent allowed to be played mid tbh :]

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

"In terms of items we need to realize that Bruisers are always going to have a ranged disadvantage"

Sure but there are some champs that can actually deal with ranged champs very well, there was a thread I was in months ago where we talked about potential bot lane/ duo lane melee ADC's basically the reqs are

1.) strong consistent/reliable dmg 2.) a strong defensive steroid/ ability or great sustain 3.) A dash or CC

Yasuo, Fiora, and Master Yi all (and theres probably a few more) have these and I've actually lost to a Yasuo before and played Fiora myself in the bot lane Mord's dmg and defenses are SO high that with a decent support he does well with just the 1st 2

LordForrest2 votes

I'm pretty sure that once a champions AP is higher then their AD they use a percent of their AP to determine autoattack damage to towers and inhibs. They made the change a few seasons ago and had to adjust both nashor's tooth and a Mastery that gave a small % ap damage boost on AAs as a result.

Holgranth2 votes

I really Want Jungle Nautilus back.

LordForrest2 votes

This so much this, 2 of my favorite junglers were Nautilus and Maokai, but they got "balanced" and left the jungle either because they were to weak there or stronger somewhere else.

HR5OdeMImE1 votes

Let me start by saying that i used to be around diamond 4-2 back when i played the game last season. I do not believe Riot when they say they want more diversity and champions going in other lanes.

First they killed my Xin Zhao top with his rerwork. He sucks top now because W does VERY LITTLE damage to minions, its not even good to waveclear.

Then they killed my style of Garen top that i took with full health regen with the old masteries and health regen quints with 3 reju beads starting items.

And now they wanna push what i consider CHEESE playstyles with klepto and the rune that lets you change summoner spells. I dont know, i just dont like playing this game anymore. All i do is watch streams and thats it.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

It's insane how suddenly praisal is spammed towards riot for this one shitty video. Everything riot did the last few years was shaft melee champs and make ADCs the undisputed kings of league of legends. Now they want diversity botlane? Stomp tampering around with this already shitty game. Balance what we have now and be done with it. Nerf botlane, nerf jungle, wow game is fixed.

Wert the Wacky1 votes

I play Mordekaiser adc regularly, and it is completely viable if you have a half decent support. His biggest issue is that he doesn’t do major add burst late game like most ADCs, and he has no mobility except the haste on w.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

THIS

"For Marksmen to become less of a requirement to win they need to deal less damage but be compensated in other ways, probably either durability or trying to flesh out their niches. I.E Jhin and Caitlyn as the sniper characters or Lucian/Graves as the Kiting spellslinger character"

Execpt MAJOR x-nay on the durability, in no WAY should marksmen get any durability unless its in their niche theme like Graves or Urgot and it makes sense on them because they have low ranges. Thats now the game works especially for marksmen in terms of game health low range=higher durability, high range=lower durability. Its also the reason why Trist's sustain/durability/healthpool needs to be nerfed to the ground so she can be punished on the off chance that she IS actually caught.

Fleshing out niches is the direction we need to go DIVERSIFY the WHOLE class for the games HEALTH SAKE!!! I've been saying this since the Marksmen update. DIVERSIFY their strengths and weaknesses and play styles, not all marksmen should all be good at doing all the same things, nor should most of them get the same optimum use out of the same items.

When they get at least 2-3 different subclasses like every other class that will allow other types of classes to have room in the bot lane when they can take advantage of a marksman subclass' ACTUAL designed weaknesses

I will be SO happy when they develop some sort of subclasses for the marksmen that really brings out their niches, strengths and weaknesses

xelaker1 votes

morde worked in bot lane because they made him super stupid strong...

Skorch1 votes

2 things:

  1. My only concern is making them more reliable is typically reliable = easy. Meaning return to age of "everyone has the same range, same autos, same everything, there is no champions, just marksman"

  2. This change honestly scares me. Not because "Im an ADC main must protect my role" I dont play carry, I hate carry. But because in order to make melee viable against range, doesnt that potentially means range needs to be a non-factor, in which case why pick range at all if the melee can get on top of you anyway? I know people hate marksman on here, but entirely killing the whole cast wouldnt be good either. I would rather have everyone be good in at least 1 role, than some good in 2 some in 3 and some in none.

If they pull it off so both work SURE itll be a great change, i just dont know how well thats gonna work out since if it was easy it would be done already. I would rather not see 1/5th of the peoples main become garbage for the sake of "diversity"

This is probably not a very common opinion. But I think its an important one nonetheless.

Fear the Kayn1 votes

IMO a simple way to balance ranged ADCs is increase their AD growth, but completely remove their ability to crit (except Jhin). Only Melee champions would be allowed to crit, and thus always have higher DPS with more risk.

LVL99 Helper TK1 votes

So, make ADC's even more reliable. Hmm

Fear the Kayn1 votes

{quoted}

So, make ADC's even more reliable. Hmm

More reliable damage for ranged ADCs, but less damage.

Aeszarck1 votes

I know in the past you’ve talked about playing jungle Morde, solo lane Morde, and it seems for awhile you’ve been very positive about bot lane Morde too. Do you still play him in all 4 positions?

DeadUnborn1 votes

you are just writing all this posts to promote the shit out of your poorly edited Mordekaizer montage video aren't you?

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