Debunking the "Feeders Holding Me Back" claim with one simple principle.

Zero Shingetsu··1 votes·852 views

Another topic led me to make this post, as I drew upon partitionis pretii to make my point. Partitionis pretii, or separation of values, is a principle by which logical mathematical conclusions can be drawn simply by comparing relative values. The expectation is that facts about groups of things (usually people) will automatically "partition" them into groups together. Let's start with a classic example:

> x = 2+2+2+2+2 > y = 2+2+2+2+3 > Therefore, x does not equal y.

Partitionis pretii takes this principle and applies it to groups, "partitioning" groups based on certain statistics. Roman centuries (not groups of 100 years, but 100 soldiers in a cohort) were often arrayed this way, sorting each century by certain attributes to make each cohort easier to apply to situational shifts in combat. The notion was that men of a certain size were naturally going to move and fight together better than men of varying sizes.

Let's take the above example. Instead of a mathematical equation, partitionis pretii uses attributes. So let's remove the +'s and assume these are attributes; ages, perhaps.

> Group A has five children, ages 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 and 2. > Group B also has five children, ages 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 and 3. > Therefore, group B is not the same as group A. They will not remain together.

By natural assumption, the two groups aren't the same because one of them has a 3-year old, and the other does not. With me so far? Now, how does this apply to League?

Assumption: "If I'm a skilled player, but all my teammates are always feeding, I will remain forever at low ELO."

This is markedly false, and this principle tells us why.

> Five players play ten games of League. > In the first 8 games, the KDA for each player is: 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1. > In the last 2 games, the KDA for each player is: 4:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1. > Therefore, player 1 is not the same as players 2, 3, 4 and 5. He will not remain in this group.

Player 1 does not partition into this group. It just doesn't happen. It can't happen, because by natural course, he filters into a different group. In this case, a better group.

Because League sets your MMR based on performance, not win rate, player 1 is not going to remain with players 2, 3, 4 and 5 for very long. I know this for fact because my win rate is significantly higher than the obvious average of 50%, but my MMR is around 860 because my personal stats are rarely any good (as a consequence of playing entirely selfless).

Assumption: "No matter how good I am, if I get feeders every game, I'll never promote."

What does partitionis pretii say about this?

> Five players play 100 ranked games. > Four players are unskilled enough to lose 100 games. > One player wins 50 games. > Therefore, the one player is not the same as the other four. He will not remain with them.

Logically speaking, that player is not going to stay with this group. "Oh, but promos!" I hear you say. But that's just the thing. Apply it inversely.

> A player is currently in Bronze. > This player has a feeder in 100% of his games.

Can you tell me what must come next? There are two options.

OPTION A: > This player's opponents have feeders in 50% of their games. > Therefore, the player's opponents are not the same (thus not in the same partition, in this case League rank) as the player. They will not remain together.

OPTION B: > This player's opponents have feeders in 100% of their games. > Therefore, the player's opponents are the same as the player. They will remain together.

In other words, unless your average game looks exactly like the average game of every other player around you, statistically, they would already rank above you and you wouldn't have opponents. This means that, by default, every person who plays at your rank deals with, over the course of 100 games, the exact same issues you do. Some of them will promote, some will not. So what's the next logical operator in the partitioning process?

Well, personal performance is the one most look to. Again we have two options.

OPTION A: > You are skilled enough to average a 1:1 KDA. > Your teammates and opponents average a 1:1 KDA. > Therefore, you are the same as your teammates and opponents. You will remain together.

OPTION B: > You average a 4:1 KDA. > Your teammates and opponents average a 1:1 KDA. > Therefore, you are not the same as your teammates and opponents. You will not remain together.

In conclusion, based on this simple method of natural partitioning, we can conclude that if can't get out of a specific tier, it's because that's where you currently belong. You're going to have to improve your play if you want to claw out, and no amount of blaming feeders or noobs will change that, because everyone else is dealing with the exact same thing on average, else you wouldn't still be in this group.

If you think your performance is too strong for your current tier, re-evaluate, because there's something (perhaps intangible) you're not doing well enough.

You are Bronze because you are doing what Bronze players do. If you were doing what Diamond players do, you would be Diamond.

5 Comments

SEKAI2 votes

This is such a long-winded and roundabout way to say that "I think "feeders hold me back" is false because otherwise how else are you in low elo?"

Which doesn't disprove anything, because if they are really there because feeders hold them back then the feeders are the reason why they're there. You get the drift? You've made no attempt to elaborate on whether or not the said feeders actually exist, you kinda just go "well I mean, you're there in Bronze, so you must be in Bronze" and hand-wave the rest of the essay.

Secondly, you also use the same tired rhetoric that "if you're better, you'll climb", but did not elaborate on how much better one has to be in order to actually climb, and the speed of the climbing process for any normal climbers. Because as it stands, climbing only truly happens in a consistent manner in Ranked when you're VASTLY better than your teammates with at least 2 leagues above them, and the system severely hinders the incremental climbers (as opposed to the speed climbers such as high elo smurfs) inconveniencing them with a climb that would take literal years to complete.

So much for debunking logical fallacy, amiright?

......

I will tell you, definitively, that those "feeders" actually exist, in a way anyway.

  1. No matter how new you are or how good or bad you perform historically, a player start Ranked from either Silver and high Bronze, where the majority of the player base is in this 1 elo bracket. This creates a gigantic skill difference in Silver and the high Bronze region, and this is also why there is this saying of "feeders" because that's just the experience of the majority of the players having to deal with the said massive skill differences in their Ranked matches.
  2. The Ranked system itself severely punishes incremental skill improvement, and vastly rewards those who are supremely better than everybody in the match. The rank system relies extremely on averages, but also with a very high demand for the average performance of the player, in order to force a climb. This creates a situation in which high elo players can shoot through the ranks instantly when on smurf while players who are actually there to climb does so at a snail's pace. The system is a failure because it does not allow player to "get good", it requires them to "already be good", in order to climb. And thus this punishing nature makes people exceptionally sensitive to the idea of "feeder", a misdirected vent at the wrong subject but truthful sentiment on the feeling that their win and loss and subsequently their climbs are often entirely out of their own control.
  3. Smurfing. A lot of high elos smurf in low elo for fun, or if they stream and do videos, for the views. Smurfing fundamentally destabilises the already weak team balances and other bad situations of the low elo as previously discussed by introducing yet another uncontrollable factor into the mix. They shit on low elo players way too hard, and create the impression that the feeding players are "feeding" when in reality they can't do anything about it due to the fundamental skill difference created by the smurfs.

"Feeders hold me back" is just an oversimplified statement/sentiment based on the highly fucked up environment known as the League's Ranked system and its numerous problems; the frustration that players don't feel they are in control of their climb, and the game and other players seem to be actively working against them, which are more or less true.

This is NOT to say that there aren't bad players who just use others as excuses instead of facing their own misplay, but let's not utterly ignore the rage-inducing and problem-infested Ranked system for a second that was really behind the whole "feeder drags me down" thingy.

BurakkuRozu91 votes

> Group A has five children, ages 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 and 2. > Group B also has five children, ages 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 and 3. > Therefore, group B is not the same as group A. They will not remain together.

This one in reality is not correct. Kids of differing ages, margin of error 1 can remain together. In turn the bottom one does not apply.

Assumption: "If I'm a skilled player, but all my teammates are always feeding, I will remain forever at low ELO."

This is markedly false, and this principle tells us why.

> Five players play ten games of League. > In the first 8 games, the KDA for each player is: 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1. > In the last 2 games, the KDA for each player is: 4:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1, 0.2:1. > Therefore, player 1 is not the same as players 2, 3, 4 and 5. He will not remain in this group.

Giving values meaning (performance, not just KDA) For instance 0 = completely losing lane everything in between here depends 1 = winning lane 2 = 1v2 3 = 1v3 4 = 1v4

4-0 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8

Personal at the top still has to pick up the slack of the other 4, while the enemy team combined are doing as well if not better than him.

3-0 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 Not as good as the first.

2-0 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 Higher frequency to occur than the other 2. Usually these guys and the ones before will climb easier than the ones below.

1-0 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 Can occur way more. Cannot transition to lead, will end up as loss.

1>x>y>0 x-y>0 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 .2-.8 Occurs much more often in low elo. You can win lane but if you can't transition it to anything else, will ultimately lose.

In a way, your team can hold you back. In the lower elos that is. As we progress higher and higher, performance between players will start to even out and it will be more about who makes more small mistakes and who has the better micro and macro skill while in low elo, who can throw the hardest.

My thoughts.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Interesting read.

Illabethe1 votes

lol. You damaged your own argument by illustrating with KDA.

KDA has absolutely no correlation with MMR or win rates.

What does have a correlation with MMR or win rates: Objective taking, and its feasibility.

If you are a high KDA player, your group may very well be the same for several reasons:

  1. You are playing a champion that by default is a high KDA champion compared to others, but generally lacks pushing power, like Evelynn or Talon

  2. You could be playing a champ whose partial purpose IS to die, like Yorick Singed MasterYi Yasuo (some of which is because they receive no real punishment for dying since their mobility brings them right back to lane)

  3. Personal aversion to split pushing with awareness (Some players just can't find the windows to push objectives. They spend an entire game going 20/2/18, but never have a 30 second window within to push a turret OR their team is so bad that they literally don't push out ANY minion waves. If your minion waves in all 3 lanes are right up against YOUR base, even if you ace, there's nothing you can do with that ace. And there's nothing one person can do to rectify this easily. You can push out one lane, but then the other team pushes it right back while your team continues not pushing them.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the margins by which an out of elo player is not grouped properly is usually really small. You can regularly carry both objectives and KDA's, but your win rate will still only be marginally better, and more importantly, your wins usually won't be IN A ROW. If you are trading wins for losses, you are effectively losing 2 games per win: The game you just won, and the game you were playing where you lost. You are forced to re-retrieve that loss, and win another to progress. And that's where grouping fails, and leads to situations where climbs are just sluggish to the point it's in thousands of games.

Sequence is more important to climbing than actual MMR. Winning 20 in a row after 20 losses or losing 20 after 20 wins is far more impactful on rank than actual performance. In other words, Luck.

(An account I made in 2017 I was consistently in Gold..... until Evelynn Came out and I tried her. She had obvious weaknesses in Season 7 after her rework, and late season smurfs knew how to exploit it. Every game was a 1v2 or worse jungle, and even if you pulled a 20/1 game with her..... which was really hard on the old runes, she just had tangible weaknesses that created large loss streaks: She couldn't sustain vs Baron and barely could take Drakes, because her new build had no in build sustain and her Armor/Resist ratios are pretty low...... even if her team was there.

So..... on that account.... I was 72% win rate on Sona with large win streaks. I lost about 18 of my first 23 games with the new Evelynn, and dropped my MMR so hard that Gold V only cushioned me for 2 games, because the system was calculating that I was like Silver V. So..... 18 in 23 losses literally wiped out about 70 Sona games in progress.... in a blink.)

Khristophoros1 votes

Because League sets your MMR based on performance, not win rate

Do you have a source on this? I'm pretty sure this is not true.

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