No. No really, the game is stupid.

Zero Shingetsu··111 votes·19,977 views

Ladies and Gentlemen, This Is Your Captain Speaking... We're All Screwed

In what world does a balanced team comp lose to pure damage every single time? Games with a support, a tank and/or bruiser, a mage, an ADC, and an assasin should rightly be won against teams of equal skill who are three assassins, a mage, and an ADC. Literally, teams who FOREGO buying wards tend to perform better than teams with a dedicate support who buys them. Why?

Damage. Damage, damage, damage, damage, damage. That's all this game is now. Build all the resistances you want, the damage doesn't care. It cuts through those resistances like a northern warlord through a bedthrall. There is nothing, and I mean nothing you can do about it except bring as much damage as they do and outplay them. The entire concept of League strategy was always predicated on vision and having a balanced team that brought a little of everything to the table.

Nowdays, every single game has Zed, Yasuo, Yi, Darius, or some combination. Do you know why? Because these are easy champions with next to zero counterplay in the current meta. It doesn't matter how you play against them because they're going to put out so much damage that a single lifesteal item is all they need to recover a good 15% of their HP per hit. Tanks are useless. Supports are mostly useless, the odd Yuumi aside. Lulu is only a valuable support anymore because she can make her already unstoppable damage-driven allies even more unstoppable.

You broke the game, Riot. You broke it. You let it get away from you. There's no shame in it, you've been working at this for around a decade now, and when you make yearly overhauls for that long, it's bound to get away from you eventually. What you're doing wrong is that you're not cutting your losses. This game is currently beyond repair - in part because it, well, got away from you, and in part because I don't think you have a desire to fix it.

You have an agenda. There's a reason you want fast games. Maybe it's to force a ton of LCS highlights you can put into your yearly championship promo material. Maybe it's to help Asian players get more games in on their limited free time budget. Maybe you just hate your players. I don't know, and I don't care. It's your game, you're within rights to implement whatever agenda you like in its development. But I will tell you, all the same, that you're going about this the wrong way. Dozens of people on the boards alone agree, just take a look at Gameplay during any given hour of any given day. These are not happy people.

For those of you who think I'm full of it, here's a little proof.

The Thornmail Incident

Back when Thornmail was first implemented, it returned 20% of damage taken. That wasn't enough; they upped it to 25%. Later they increased it to 30%. It worked that way for FIVE MAJOR PATCHES. It wasn't until 5.16 that they cut it back down to 15% and put in bonus reflection based on total armor, and even then, it was still based on damage sustained. It was definitely a buff, as it was encouraging you to build more armor. You could surpass 30% far and away if you really invested in armor.

Then 7.14 happened, and it all changed drastically. Thornmail no longer scaled with damage sustained at all. Now it was just flat magic damage based on your total Armor. Specifically, 25 + 10% of bonus Armor. This means if you've invested manifold thousands of gold in 250 bonus armor, you're dealing a whopping 50 damage per hit taken to your attackers.

Why would they do this? To me, someone who mained tanks and ran Thornmail often, it was obvious: Yasuo could literally kill himself with 4 Q's on Thornmail. This is because his Q procs on-hit effects like an auto-attack; it worked against Thornmail too. Yi hardly fared better; a Yi would last about five hits before he killed himself on your Thornmail. Vayne, Quinn, Jinx, and other heavy-hitters during the 6.0 era all faced a similar fate.

Now answer me this. Let's say I've got 200 armor. This means I'm reflecting 65% of auto-attacks (and Yasuo's Q) I take. In what world should an attacker be able to kill himself that quickly from a little over half his own damage? The meta had shifted so heavily towards offense that it was literally possible to kill yourself on Thornmail long before you came close to killing your opponent.

Since then, it's only gotten more insane. The new runes have given more damage potential than ever. Just look; three entire rune sets geared heavily towards inflicting damage (Precision, Domination, and Sorcery are all extremely damage-oriented), and only one underwhelming set for survival. That's a full 60% of all runes that are about adding more damage to an already overtuned game.

Excuse Me, Does This Tunnel Have a Light?

Where do we go from here? Now that we know the game is shattered beyond repair, and about to get even worse with the implementation of things like shield-shredders, is there any hope for League? As much as I'd like to think so, no. It's too far gone, Riot is too different from what it was at the start, and everything is just way too far out of hand. It would take several years of off-time and rebuilding from the ground up to fix this game now. Therefore, I advocate for one of two things: Either make a sequel and drop League as we know it currently, or make a new game entirely.

A sequel could be an opportunity to go back to basics. Come in with rich lore from the start, rather than lore that was shoehorned in when Riot decided they wanted to take their world seriously. Approach the game from a fresh perspective, taking great care to balance and tune from zero. Implement a system for providing feedback that goes straight to the developers' desks and sorts itself, making it easier to see at a glance what the community likes and what they don't.

On the other hand, an entirely new game could be a way for Riot to expand its horizons and carry its fanbase into a new genre. It may open the door for all kinds of great things. Why settle for a MOBA when you're worth millions? Good companies don't just sit on their money, they invest it back into their enterprise. Try a strategy game. Maybe even an RPG. I'm sure many of us would love to step into your world with a character of our own design and interact with all these characters. There's so much you could be doing that could be great both for you and your players. Why waste all that capital on a game that's too far gone to fix?

I sincerely hope this company does something worthwhile. For as many really horrible ideas as they have, they have at least as many good ones. But League? League isn't gonna be where this theoretical worthwhile something happens.

125 Comments

preternatural38 votes

no one wants the game to be fixed. I know this to be true now and it honestly makes me sick. those who do are what, 10% minority at best, never gonna be heard anyway. the rest want it to be fair under the current guise which is just literally impossible, the window of viability is too small but people don't realise it. just utterly jaded with the community far more than the game itself.

YaraUwU12 votes

I liked when the game had strategy involved.

Sewer Side4 votes

There is, ur just not as good as you think you are

YaraUwU3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-07-22T13:21:39.281+0000)

There is, ur just not as good as you think you are

Yah one problem with that. I dont think im good. Im actually terrible at the game.

I dont have to be good at a game to understand strategizing in it. And league has almost no strategy involved anymore.

Champion select is the most strategic part of lol and is basically the only one at this point. You will almost never see anyone outsmart their opponent in this game whether its pro play or iron elo.

TheBrothersGrymm12 votes

the state of this game is sad as fuck now a days, and they rushed TFT to save the day when it ruined matchmaking, why does vayne still do 14% of my max ho in 3 autos? why can zed still 1 shot yet wukong is dead? why are tanks not allowed to scale anymore? why does everything do so much damage? why do we even play this game? oh yea we used to love it, we spent alot of time and money on it, but its like a bad marriage and we staying together for the kids

Zero Shingetsu6 votes

{quoted}

oh yea we used to love it, we spent alot of time and money on it, but its like a bad marriage and we staying together for the kids

That's actually a near-perfect analogy to be honest.

Glaistig Uaine8 votes

I just went 15/5/3 Wukong with Thornmail and Fleet Footwork against a Yasuo with a skin I'm Mastery 2 with Wukong. I might've played a little more seriously than usual, but I also took fleet footwork because I felt like it. Their support was a Bard, ours was a Thresh, their jung Kha'Zix, ours Elise. So they had a far more damage focussed comp, I went thorn mail and I was pretty tanky and got out of a number of tricky situations because of my extra durability. I think you are making more out of this than it needs to be. Stop going cleanse exahust on every champion first thing, that alone will win you 20% more games.

Armour is actually great against Lethality since it removes a flat amount and going from 50 armour to 90 matters more than going from 90 to 130, if your opponent isn't building lethality you want a mix of armour and HP if they go percentage armour pen you want more health than armour and if they do build lethality you want more armour than health.

The fact that Rammus is okay and that he always builds TM pretty much proves that the issue isn't as big as you are making it out to be. Garen, Voli, Amumu are all great ATM and they are tanks or at least tanky.

Zero Shingetsu5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glaistig Uaine,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-07-21T14:55:49.154+0000)

I just went 15/5/3 Wukong with Thornmail and Fleet Footwork against a Yasuo with a skin I'm Mastery 2 with Wukong. I might've played a little more seriously than usual, but I also took fleet footwork because I felt like it. Their support was a Bard, ours was a Thresh, their jung Kha'Zix, ours Elise. So they had a far more damage focussed comp, I went thorn mail and I was pretty tanky and got out of a number of tricky situations because of my extra durability. I think you are making more out of this than it needs to be. Stop going cleanse exahust on every champion first thing, that alone will win you 20% more games.

Armour is actually great against Lethality since it removes a flat amount and going from 50 armour to 90 matters more than going from 90 to 130, if your opponent isn't building lethality you want a mix of armour and HP if they go percentage armour pen you want more health than armour and if they do build lethality you want more armour than health.

The fact that Rammus is okay and that he always builds TM pretty much proves that the issue isn't as big as you are making it out to be. Garen, Voli, Amumu are all great ATM and they are tanks or at least tanky.

As a longtime Support Rammus main, I can say comfortably that Thornmail isn't doing the job it used to by any stretch. Rammus used to be an unholy terror to ADCs. Now they can take a taunt, play through, and then just kite the rest of the fight out with impunity in most cases.

crippler381 votes

Is someone else helping you kill the ADC? Or are you asking for Rammus to kill someone with full tank and Thornmail within a taunt or so?

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Is someone else helping you kill the ADC? Or are you asking for Rammus to kill someone with full tank and Thornmail within a taunt or so?

I'm asking for an ADC to not be able to solo a tank. I don't need Rammus to kill the ADC alone, I need the ADC to fear the tank without backup. An ADC shouldn't be able to duel a tank with impunity. It runs contrary to the concept of the ADC. Marksmen are supposed to be dangerous in teamfights. They can deal big damage without needing to rely on abilities, meaning they don't need to worry so much about mana or cooldowns.

The tradeoff is that they're at risk by themselves. This is why they lane with supports. This is why they're supposed to stay at the back in teamfights. If an ADC gets caught out, they should be punished for it big time. They shouldn't be able to stand in place and demolish a tank 1v1 because they have enough raw damage to lifesteal through any damage or CC they take.

Disembark1 votes

Umm. A rammus that isn’t support can comfortably 1v1 an ADC. Are you asking why you can’t have your underleveled no item having ass just 1v1 an ADC with no brain usage whatsoever?

Maybe try using even one second to think before you blame the game itself. Lmao.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Umm. A rammus that isn’t support can comfortably 1v1 an ADC. Are you asking why you can’t have your underleveled no item having ass just 1v1 an ADC with no brain usage whatsoever?

Maybe try using even one second to think before you blame the game itself. Lmao.

As long as we're speaking of theoretical games that didn't happen, maybe I'm level 18 and a level 6 Yi with a single completed item is melting my fed Rammus in a half a hit.

Come on, don't weigh in if your argument is going to be that weak. Of course I don't expect to trample an ADC 1v1 with a support. I just don't expect that ADC to be able to trample me. I brought up the Thornmail situation as an illustration that the damage was getting too high. It wasn't that Rammus was amazing, it's that AD champions were getting obscenely powerful, such that the old Thornmail was actually doing more damage to them than I should ever have been able to inflict. That gutting it was necessary to mask the fact that damage was rapidly spiraling out of control.

Disembark1 votes

What are you even saying. A level 6 Yi with 1 item can melt a level 18 rammus? What did I just read. Ignoring that...

Thornmail is a way better tank item now than it was before. Before it gave 90 flat armour and did more damage. Now it gives health, AS reduction, grevious wounds, and also armour.

So your solution to having too much damage is... giving a tank item less tankiness and more damage.

Not to even mention if I was playing support rammus, as I have, and rushed thornmail, I would fucking easily 1v1 the adc (besides maybe Vayne). If you expect to 1v1 the ADC as a support when they have their 4-5 items, then you’re just delusional.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

What are you even saying. A level 6 Yi with 1 item can melt a level 18 rammus? What did I just read. Ignoring that...

What I'm saying is that you were predicating your criticism on a theoretical game that didn't actually happen. Something you invented in your mind. This comment was meant to show you how ridiculous it is to predicate an argument on that. It was sarcasm.

Disembark1 votes

I didn’t base it off a theoretical game, I based it off what you said happened. Don’t even bother addressing the rest of my post though, cause tbh it makes you look ridiculous.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

I didn’t base it off a theoretical game, I based it off what you said happened.

Did you now?

{quoted}

Are you asking why you can’t have your underleveled no item having ass just 1v1 an ADC with no brain usage whatsoever?

Your words. I never said underlevel, I never said no items. I said Rammus with Thornmail used to destroy ADCs. I never even said I wanted that; I used it as an example of the damage meta having gotten out of hand. You decided to concoct this theoretical scenario in which I was underlevel and had no items, but still destroyed an ADC 1v1 with Rammus. Most likely, I'd bet, to make me look like a whiny fool who's upset that I can't stomp despite being a no-skill hack. Especially foolish when Thornmail was literally the focal point of the discussion, don't you think?

Don’t even bother addressing the rest of my post though, cause tbh it makes you look ridiculous.

I didn't address the rest of the post because I saw no point. I disagree with your assessment, you'll disagree with mine, and neither of us is going to change the other's mind. But since you insist... No, Thornmail is not as effective as it used to be. On paper, it's a better item now. It has more versatility. The problems it has:

  1. You can't force someone to attack you (again, unless you're Rammus), which negates about half its effectiveness as listed.
  2. True Damage is getting extremely prevalent, and there are many ways to strip armor on top of this. An armor bonus isn't a huge deal anymore; not like it used to be.
  3. 250 health is trivial for a tank. Any late game ADC can cut through that in just under one second.

It used to be useful because it forced high-burst auto champions like Vayne and Yasuo to think twice before they just bowled into the teamfight. If you got a taunt on them, it was a huge danger. Again, I'm not saying it should have been this way to the extent it was. Merely that the damage had gotten so obscene that it was unintentionally destroying many champions from their own ridiculous damage. However, cutting the rate of reflection would have been far preferable to removing it entirely.

Disembark1 votes

“Old thornmail was good cuz it made people think twice before hitting you”

“New thornmail grevious wounds suck cuz u can’t force someone to attack you”.

Not to mention you say stuff like “life steal” when in 90% of games in most elos ADCs never get to the point where they can build a life steal item. Also you said support rammus, which in general means underleveled and definitely underfarmed.

Once again, you mention “late game ADC” and once again I have to assume you’re whining because you can’t 1v1 a late game hypercarry with their items as a support. And once again you complain about “damage being high” but just want to do more damage yourself, and don’t care for the other benefits thornmail provides now (btw thornmail was a trolltier item before it’s rework - hardly built - and is way better now).

Absolutely unreal. Don’t bother responding. The quality of your posts is making it hard for me to not get a boards chat restrict.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely unreal. Don’t bother responding. The quality of your posts is making it hard for me to not get a boards chat restrict.

Fair enough. I'm quite enjoying the discussion, please excuse me for assuming you were as well. (o_ _)o

There's probably nothing to be gained by further discussion anyway, since we're clearly not going to change any minds one way or the other. Although there is one thing I need to address for general clarification.

Not to mention you say stuff like “life steal” when in 90% of games in most elos ADCs never get to the point where they can build a life steal item. Also you said support rammus, which in general means underleveled and definitely underfarmed.

Setting aside the fact that, again, I never said I wanted Support Rammus to 1v1, merely that his ability to do so due to Thornmail was proof that the damage was too high... I've played everywhere from Bronze V to Gold II, and lifesteal is generally one of the first things most ADCs build towards, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. "Most ELOs" may mean Diamond+, but that only accounts for 17% of the player base despite having more actual tiers, so I'm not sure what this is meant to mean. Regardless, lifesteal is more prevalent than you suppose with this comment, in my experience. Far more.

Disembark1 votes

Not a single meta ADC builds lifesteal before 4 items. The meta ADCs are Sivir/Kaisa/Ezreal/Xayah/sometimes Jinx btw.

Don’t respond before you fact check. You are unbelievably wrong. Nothing more I can say without violating board rules.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Not a single meta ADC builds lifesteal before 4 items. The meta ADCs are Sivir/Kaisa/Ezreal/Xayah/sometimes Jinx btw.

Don’t respond before you fact check. You are unbelievably wrong. Nothing more I can say without violating board rules.

You seem to be talking about much higher level play. Where I come from, there are no "meta ADCs"; you see a little bit of everything. On a similar note, I'm going by what I see in my actual games on a regular basis, and you're telling me I'm wrong? Perhaps my eyes deceive me. Maybe it's this buggy patch. Maybe it's Infinity Edge, but the icon is showing up as Bloodthirster. I wouldn't put it past Riot right now.

Disembark1 votes

ADCs besides Draven building bloodthirster first is not indicative of the meta but rather the level of play of your opponents. I don’t think you will meet many Dravens that are any good anyways.

It’s okay though, because they can build bloodthirster first and get away with it when they’re against your support rammus building thornmail for some reason.

Plus what you’re pretty much saying is Riot should cater their game to people who are extremely bad, and fuck it up for anyone who actually puts any time in it and play at any decent level. Okay.

Daddy Ants7 votes

Thornmail also provides Grievous Wounds and an attack speed cripple now a days.

It didn't back then.

Zero Shingetsu7 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail also provides Grievous Wounds and an attack speed cripple now a days.

It didn't back then.

True, but that's only useful if damage-dealing allies are around, and if they are, enemies can just... not attack you, thereby negating it.

Daddy Ants7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-07-21T08:53:56.927+0000)

True, but that's only useful if damage-dealing allies are around, and if they are, enemies can just... not attack you, thereby negating it.

That's the intended counterplay to Thornmail though.

You either have enough lifesteal / MR to shrug off the damage or you ignore the thornmail user.

ArtumisPrime3 votes

It also used to give 100 armor and cost 2k gold.

nm10107 votes

I miss the days where you had to counter build thornmail as an auto attack based champion instead of just laughing at a minor inconvenience of reduced healing.

ÅlzheimerDønger6 votes

can we just get season 5 back? because as an old khazix main i really thought changes are good, but in reality, we all just want season 5 when you could do anything what you wanted, and if you were a better player, you could have just beated the lane or the game, i really miss the husaim Bolt yi that you couldnt outrun, or a lvl 2 xin zhao that could 1v2 anyone i just miss those days

Sucction5 votes

Just as a side note, but I do want to ask in what world that Zed and Darius build lifesteal?

Yi doesn't usually either but I suppose he can in certain cases. Agree on Yasuo though, but I think his healing is mostly from Ravenous Hunter still incorrectly treating his Q and Shiv as single target.

Zero Shingetsu4 votes

{quoted}

Just as a side note, but I do want to ask in what world that Zed and Darius build lifesteal?

Yi doesn't usually either but I suppose he can in certain cases. Agree on Yasuo though, but I think his healing is mostly from Ravenous Hunter still incorrectly treating his Q and Shiv as single target.

They're worse in that they don't even need lifesteal; once they get a couple items, they can reliably kill enemies so fast that Triumph alone is usually enough to sustain them through teamfights without fear. Zed may not even need that if a particular player is good at staying out of harm's way. The only real counterplay against Zed is to jump on him with dashes, hard CC, and at LEAST one teammate.

Sucction1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-07-21T22:19:56.674+0000)

They're worse in that they don't even need lifesteal; once they get a couple items, they can reliably kill enemies so fast that Triumph alone is usually enough to sustain them through teamfights without fear. Zed may not even need that if a particular player is good at staying out of harm's way. The only real counterplay against Zed is to jump on him with dashes, hard CC, and at LEAST one teammate.

Wouldn't say you're really an authority on this, since your account just plays normal games with cleanse and exhaust.

Is it botted? Certainly looks like it.

Triumph doesn't sustain people. If triumph procs twice, they would've won without it anyway.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't say you're really an authority on this, since your account just plays normal games with cleanse and exhaust.

Is there some kind of problem with normal games? If normal games aren't worth anything, they should remove normal and force ranked.

Is it botted? Certainly looks like it.

Botted?

Triumph doesn't sustain people. If triumph procs twice, they would've won without it anyway.

Then either way, they're doing too much damage too quickly, as my original point states.

Sucction1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T05:27:02.732+0000)

Is there some kind of problem with normal games? If normal games aren't worth anything, they should remove normal and force ranked.

Botted?

Then either way, they're doing too much damage too quickly, as my original point states.

Idk man I don't think bronze ranked normal players who pick troll summoner spells are going to have good opinions on balance

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Idk man I don't think bronze ranked normal players who pick troll summoner spells are going to have good opinions on balance

  1. I don't have a rank. OP.GG registers it as Bronze because it was the lowest rank during those seasons and I never actually did placements. My matchmaking tends to include Silver and low Gold players, so Bronze is probably a bit of an understatement, but it's all low elo so it's splitting hairs at that point.

  2. My spells aren't troll picks at all. I take Exhaust to protect my teammates, turn duels, and shut down dangerous ults like Zed or Yasuo. I take Cleanse to keep myself from dying to cheap Ignites under tower and during early duels, clear CC that will mean my death, and get rid of certain deadly abilities (such as Urgot R).

Please tell me where my logic is flawed. Why do you consider them troll picks? Is it truly because of flawed logic, or do you simply think that anything LCS players don't do shouldn't be done? They should just get rid of Exhaust and Cleanse, then. Just give us all Flash and Ignite automatically.

Sucction2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T02:35:40.689+0000)

  1. I don't have a rank. OP.GG registers it as Bronze because it was the lowest rank during those seasons and I never actually did placements. My matchmaking tends to include Silver and low Gold players, so Bronze is probably a bit of an understatement, but it's all low elo so it's splitting hairs at that point.

  2. My spells aren't troll picks at all. I take Exhaust to protect my teammates, turn duels, and shut down dangerous ults like Zed or Yasuo. I take Cleanse to keep myself from dying to cheap Ignites under tower and during early duels, clear CC that will mean my death, and get rid of certain deadly abilities (such as Urgot R).

Please tell me where my logic is flawed. Why do you consider them troll picks? Is it truly because of flawed logic, or do you simply think that anything LCS players don't do shouldn't be done? They should just get rid of Exhaust and Cleanse, then. Just give us all Flash and Ignite automatically.

There's a very, very good reason why nobody takes that rune setup.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what that reason is. I'll leave you to it.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

There's a very, very good reason why nobody takes that rune setup.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what that reason is. I'll leave you to it.

I assume you mean summoner setup. Alright, let's analyze the alternatives, noting that I support almost every game (and when I don't, I still play in a supportive fashion during teamfights, as is my nature).

summoner 21 Well, this gets melted in 1-2 autos come mid game. It'd be nice in lane, but that's about it. It also helps against Ignite, but only for a brief period. It's still very possible to die to Ignite with Barrier if the timing works out. It might be good in a lane against, say, Teemo, but I play blind exclusively so I never know who I'm up against. I need to build wide.

summoner 4 I've already discussed the shortcomings of Flash, and I didn't even get into the way it encourages you to make stupid decisions because "Oh, I can always just Flash out of it!" Additionally, I pretty exclusively play one of two types of champion: A, agile, juke-happy champions who don't exactly need Flash to begin with, or B, tanks, in which case I intend to be the last one out of a fight anyway. This would be a waste.

summoner 6 Great if you're one of the thousands of people who chase kills exclusively. Okay for escaping, in certain rare situations. Also good for melee junglers. I'm neither of those things, and for escapes, I'd much rather have Cleanse on hand. Too many champions and items can slow you these days, and Ghost takes time to ramp up as it is. I get my movement speed from runes and items, I don't need anymore from Ghost. With my builds, I can literally outrun Ghost unless someone like Garen or Hecarim has taken it.

summoner 7 Ignite can also burn through this if you're low enough when it gets placed on you. It does help in duels a little, but I have Exhaust for this. Good for escapes? Sort of, but see above; it's even worse than Ghost when compared to Cleanse right now. Perhaps most importantly, two Heals in a single lane is often a duplication of effort. Unless you're on voice with your ADC, there's a very real chance you could both Heal at once, one of them being half wasted as a result. I'd rather Exhaust their ADC, whether we're going in or getting out.

summoner 14 (*≧▽≦)ノシ)) Let's put aside my pride for a moment. The fact that since level 18, I decided I'd never take pride in a cheap Ignite kill again. Is it useful? Yes. Is it useful for a support? Not so much. The best I can use it for is reducing the enemy ADC's lifesteal, and in that case there's a very real chance I take a kill from my ADC, which is bad. My goal is 0 kills by the end of the game. I rarely meet that goal, but I definitely want to be below 10. Why would I take something that's apt to give me a kill my ADC should have? Additionally, it loses a LOT of its sting later on in the game, when Cleanse remains useful for getting rid of dangerous CC and the like. The next time you dash into a Veigar stun, remember the day you told Shingetsu that Cleanse was stupid.

(As a side note, the amount of poor souls whose day I've ruined by Cleansing this off me when I'm low... They literally just walk away when they drop it! I get off Scot free! They're so sure they got an easy kill and I just stroll away with 4 HP like nothing happened. I'm sorry, everyone!)

summoner 11 I have zero use for this most of the time. If I'm forced into the jungle, I do take it in place of Exhaust, even though I don't actually jungle. It's pretty necessary for steals and such. Other than that, I have zero use for Smite. Next.

summoner 12 Teleport is useful. I'm not going to say it's not. If I were to keep playing, this would probably be what I'd replace Exhaust with, if the meta continues to push true damage. However. As it stands right now, it's not more useful than either of my other spells for two reasons. First, I can't use it to directly help my team during teamfights, apart from scaring the enemy off when I start to port in. Second, I tend to build one of two ways: A health regen tank who pretty much never needs to back, or a hyperfast Qiyana, LeBlanc, Nidalee, etc. With homeguard, I can get from base to outer turret in roughly 9 seconds, give or take a few seconds depending on who I'm playing. Teleport cuts that to 5 seconds, but only every ~360 seconds. Sometimes I do think "If I had teleport...", but not near often enough to replace what I currently use.

In conclusion, there's no alternative that's universally better for me than what I use. Thus, I can only conclude that either A, you don't know the reason yourself and you're simply assuming it's garbage because you, like everyone else, are following the streamers who never use it... or B, there isn't a reason and this is a really shallow attempt to make me look stupid when there's nothing about my logic that's lacking.

Either way, you haven't convinced me I'm wrong.

Sucction2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T06:09:32.474+0000)

I assume you mean summoner setup. Alright, let's analyze the alternatives, noting that I support almost every game (and when I don't, I still play in a supportive fashion during teamfights, as is my nature).

summoner 21 Well, this gets melted in 1-2 autos come mid game. It'd be nice in lane, but that's about it. It also helps against Ignite, but only for a brief period. It's still very possible to die to Ignite with Barrier if the timing works out. It might be good in a lane against, say, Teemo, but I play blind exclusively so I never know who I'm up against. I need to build wide.

summoner 4 I've already discussed the shortcomings of Flash, and I didn't even get into the way it encourages you to make stupid decisions because "Oh, I can always just Flash out of it!" Additionally, I pretty exclusively play one of two types of champion: A, agile, juke-happy champions who don't exactly need Flash to begin with, or B, tanks, in which case I intend to be the last one out of a fight anyway. This would be a waste.

summoner 6 Great if you're one of the thousands of people who chase kills exclusively. Okay for escaping, in certain rare situations. Also good for melee junglers. I'm neither of those things, and for escapes, I'd much rather have Cleanse on hand. Too many champions and items can slow you these days, and Ghost takes time to ramp up as it is. I get my movement speed from runes and items, I don't need anymore from Ghost. With my builds, I can literally outrun Ghost unless someone like Garen or Hecarim has taken it.

summoner 7 Ignite can also burn through this if you're low enough when it gets placed on you. It does help in duels a little, but I have Exhaust for this. Good for escapes? Sort of, but see above; it's even worse than Ghost when compared to Cleanse right now. Perhaps most importantly, two Heals in a single lane is often a duplication of effort. Unless you're on voice with your ADC, there's a very real chance you could both Heal at once, one of them being half wasted as a result. I'd rather Exhaust their ADC, whether we're going in or getting out.

summoner 14 (*≧▽≦)ノシ)) Let's put aside my pride for a moment. The fact that since level 18, I decided I'd never take pride in a cheap Ignite kill again. Is it useful? Yes. Is it useful for a support? Not so much. The best I can use it for is reducing the enemy ADC's lifesteal, and in that case there's a very real chance I take a kill from my ADC, which is bad. My goal is 0 kills by the end of the game. I rarely meet that goal, but I definitely want to be below 10. Why would I take something that's apt to give me a kill my ADC should have? Additionally, it loses a LOT of its sting later on in the game, when Cleanse remains useful for getting rid of dangerous CC and the like. The next time you dash into a Veigar stun, remember the day you told Shingetsu that Cleanse was stupid.

(As a side note, the amount of poor souls whose day I've ruined by Cleansing this off me when I'm low... They literally just walk away when they drop it! I get off Scot free! They're so sure they got an easy kill and I just stroll away with 4 HP like nothing happened. I'm sorry, everyone!)

summoner 11 I have zero use for this most of the time. If I'm forced into the jungle, I do take it in place of Exhaust, even though I don't actually jungle. It's pretty necessary for steals and such. Other than that, I have zero use for Smite. Next.

summoner 12 Teleport is useful. I'm not going to say it's not. If I were to keep playing, this would probably be what I'd replace Exhaust with, if the meta continues to push true damage. However. As it stands right now, it's not more useful than either of my other spells for two reasons. First, I can't use it to directly help my team during teamfights, apart from scaring the enemy off when I start to port in. Second, I tend to build one of two ways: A health regen tank who pretty much never needs to back, or a hyperfast Qiyana, LeBlanc, Nidalee, etc. With homeguard, I can get from base to outer turret in roughly 9 seconds, give or take a few seconds depending on who I'm playing. Teleport cuts that to 5 seconds, but only every ~360 seconds. Sometimes I do think "If I had teleport...", but not near often enough to replace what I currently use.

In conclusion, there's no alternative that's universally better for me than what I use. Thus, I can only conclude that either A, you don't know the reason yourself and you're simply assuming it's garbage because you, like everyone else, are following the streamers who never use it... or B, there isn't a reason and this is a really shallow attempt to make me look stupid when there's nothing about my logic that's lacking.

Either way, you haven't convinced me I'm wrong.

Being a stubborn moron doesn't make you right mate. Flash/Ignite it's universally better, and that's why it's universally the most picked. If your setup was better, more than 0.1% of non trolling players would take it.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

Being a stubborn moron doesn't make you right mate. Flash/Ignite it's universally better, and that's why it's universally the most picked. If your setup was better, more than 0.1% of non trolling players would take it.

Every player is different and nothing is universal. That's why there are multiple summoner spells. I've used Flash/Ignite. I ran it all through season 2 and half of season 3. Then I started hating dying to Ignite. I felt it was cheap and unsportsmanlike. If I don't want it used against me, why would I use it against someone else? When I support, I don't want kills. When I don't, I'll earn my kills. Flash is something that hasn't been effective for me as Cleanse has.

Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that not everyone has the same play style? You're essentially saying that because Michael Jordan was far and away the best basketball player of all time, every single basketball player in the world should wear the shoes he did. They worked for Michael, right? I guess they should also mirror his practice regimen. Who cares if you're a center with weak interior defense? You should be working on things in the priority Michael Jordan did, because he was the best. Defense should never be neglected; Michael was a great defender too. But it should never be a focal point, even if you're currently horrible at it, because it wasn't Michael's primary focus.

You're saying that, because the feigned rout worked for the Mongols almost every single time, that every military should have used it. They're cavalry and you're primarily heavily armored infantry? So what? Feign retreat. The Mongols built an empire with this strategy, do you think you're too good to follow an empire that covered the majority of the known world? Fall in line, general. Always feigned retreat. Always.

I'm not saying the spells I use are objectively better than every other spell. I'm saying they've worked best for me. Between the two of us, I'm the only one who's actually seen my games, so I'm fairly sure I'm the authority on this subject.

Sucction1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-24T00:48:31.806+0000)

Every player is different and nothing is universal. That's why there are multiple summoner spells. I've used Flash/Ignite. I ran it all through season 2 and half of season 3. Then I started hating dying to Ignite. I felt it was cheap and unsportsmanlike. If I don't want it used against me, why would I use it against someone else? When I support, I don't want kills. When I don't, I'll earn my kills. Flash is something that hasn't been effective for me as Cleanse has.

Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that not everyone has the same play style? You're essentially saying that because Michael Jordan was far and away the best basketball player of all time, every single basketball player in the world should wear the shoes he did. They worked for Michael, right? I guess they should also mirror his practice regimen. Who cares if you're a center with weak interior defense? You should be working on things in the priority Michael Jordan did, because he was the best. Defense should never be neglected; Michael was a great defender too. But it should never be a focal point, even if you're currently horrible at it, because it wasn't Michael's primary focus.

You're saying that, because the feigned rout worked for the Mongols almost every single time, that every military should have used it. They're cavalry and you're primarily heavily armored infantry? So what? Feign retreat. The Mongols built an empire with this strategy, do you think you're too good to follow an empire that covered the majority of the known world? Fall in line, general. Always feigned retreat. Always.

I'm not saying the spells I use are objectively better than every other spell. I'm saying they've worked best for me. Between the two of us, I'm the only one who's actually seen my games, so I'm fairly sure I'm the authority on this subject.

And between the two of us, I'm the one who actually has any fucking clue how to play the game, so I'm the authority on balance.

You're honestly just too idiotic to even bother arguing with though. There's a reason everyone's disagreeing with you in the comments.

Everything you think is wrong, you are bad, and you should feel bad.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

{quoted}

And between the two of us, I'm the one who actually has any fucking clue how to play the game, so I'm the authority on balance.

This is an empty statement. Everything you know of my play comes from OP.GG, which itself is extremely buggy of late. Without having seen at least a dozen of my games, you have no reasonable path to making such an accusation. Notice how I've never made assumptions about the accuracy of your self-aggrandizing statements? This is because for all I know, they're accurate, but it's just as likely they're not. I don't predicate my comments on things I cannot know.

You're honestly just too idiotic to even bother arguing with though. There's a reason everyone's disagreeing with you in the comments.

Everyone will value a comment as they will. I value this particular comment of yours less than the dirt on my heel. That doesn't make it an objectively bad comment. Opinions are commodities.

Everything you think is wrong, you are bad, and you should feel bad.

Another unfounded statement. It's clearly meant to make me well up with tears, but I regret to inform you I'm not a teenager anymore. If you want me to feel bad about myself, tough luck. I have no reason to take to heart the words of someone I've never met. If you want to make me change my position, blanket statements and hyperbole aren't going to cut it. You've already failed to do it with your "hard-coded logic", so you may as well give up on that front altogether.

Tuition Fee4 votes

Slightly missteps Face torn off, 100-0 by one Zed QWE

Clown Parade3 votes

100% spot on. The game is all one shots; there's a million sources of true damage, and pen items are infinitely better than resistance items.

hoganftw3 votes

I literally have nothing nice to say about this game outside of the fact that I love some of the characters and their lore. Gameplay wise? This game is trash. If I wanted to feel completely unsatisfied for 20 minutes, I'd watch a mia khalifa video.

Mokiller52 votes

But the game is fun,,,, if your the one that's doing the damage. Which as a Master Yi main like myself, trust it is fun. Stay salty you tank building one trick.

MalignMetal7 votes

I don't know how people can have fun being just a stat check

FioraWillCarry2 votes

Bro, if you bronzies would stop feeding, then damage wouldn't be a problem. I literally just had a team mate repeatedly jump into dozens of minions with Jax trying to kill the enemy Qyiana. He went 0-4 in lane and cried about the jungler and later the team not helping him. I don't say this to be mean but if you can't get past Bronze 4, you really shouldn't have an opinion about what is wrong with the game.

Getting back to that Jax, he really had zero clue why he lost lane and worse, how he could have easily hard win that lane. I bet he was thinking that Qyiana was busted, never realizing doesn't know even the most basic thing about laning and trading. So I mean, why should someone who doesn't know how to play the game in the first place be talking about balance or anything pertaining to the state of the game or the meta? Don't you think it would be better to learn the basics before commenting on what you think is broken?

Zero Shingetsu3 votes

{quoted}

Bro, if you bronzies would stop feeding, then damage wouldn't be a problem.

Now see, this is where your argument falls apart. (Right at the start, conveniently.) I'm unranked. Those who play against me are generally unranked; some are bronze, some silver. The point is, we're all of the same general skill level. We're all "bronzies". If everyone is feeding, no one is feeding. Not everyone is feeding; only those who try to play tanks or utility supports, and that's only because jump-and-burst is so reliable right now.

I've been playing this game since season 3. I know about freeze. I know about macro. I know how to control aggression. The works. I've been there, I've done it. You're talking to a veteran player, and I also happen to be "lower tier". Knowledge and reflexes are not bound together. Lacking the physical capability to outclick your opponent does not mean you know nothing. Further, there are many like me who simply don't have the effort to spare getting really good at League. Maybe if LCS didn't have a garbage salary system, I'd bother, but other games pay a lot better. League falls to the status of "hobby". It happens.

Don't you think it would be better to know the personal situation of every single Bronze player (an impossible feat) before commenting on who you think doesn't deserve to talk about balance?

(For the record, I've been Silver II. Back when the game wasn't terrible. How many others, I wonder, also used to be higher but quit trying because the game got insanely damage-oriented?)

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=00200000,timestamp=2019-07-22T06:35:22.993+0000)

Don't you think it would be better to know the personal situation of every single Bronze player (an impossible feat) before commenting on who you think doesn't deserve to talk about balance?

They are Bronze. What more is there to know?

Zero Shingetsu3 votes

{quoted}

They are Bronze. What more is there to know?

They are players. What more is there to know that that? In fact, they comprise the single largest section of the player base. You'd do well to show them a little healthy reverence. "Bushi wa kikin no ma nōmin o sonchō." The warrior learns to respect the farmer during times of famine.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AMbfsp11,comment-id=0020000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T07:30:28.049+0000)

The warrior learns to respect the farmer during times of famine.

You got that right. Those farmers sure do a good job of feeding everyone in SoloQ. No argument with you there.

Zero Shingetsu3 votes

{quoted}

You got that right. Those farmers sure do a good job of feeding everyone in SoloQ. No argument with you there.

Missing the point. The "farmers" - the lowest class - support everyone else. If all those bronze players quit, there wouldn't be a League anymore.

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