How do you solve a problem like Kayle?

SaltyKracka··30 votes·3,980 views

And let's be clear, Kayle is a problem.

She's doing way too much, way too early, the way she always has when she's out of line. Riot themselves have attributed this to Fervor of Battle, and looking at the damage splits for a character that builds pretty much pure AP items? Yeah, they're not wrong.

Now, they proposed to reduce or remove her armor shred in order to prevent her from dealing outsized amounts of physical damage while building AP items, and that's not something I'm going to necessarily say was the wrong tack to take. But there's something much less obvious that is also to blame for Fervor being OP on Kayle.

Namely, the way it interacts with her E.

No, not that it gives her range. That's a given, and has always been one of the bases of her periods of unbalance. Instead, what happens is that autoattacks with E up will give Kayle 3 Fervor stacks immediately due to the...frankly stupid way Kayle's E interacts with the abilities portion of Fervor.

So Rioteers, if you would do us all the favor of disabling Kayle's E from interacting with Fervor and adding it to 6.9 (you know, the patch where you're planning on gutting MR items again) post-haste, we could avoid another patch of frustration as another two weeks of (not so) sleeper OP Kayle inch past.

...Of course, I say all this, but it's unlikely that it will immediately have too much of an effect on our dear old outdated piece of crap. She'll likely continue to be OP and Rito will likely continue to ponder nerfs, but isn't it much more palatable than them giving her actual mana costs or actual downtime on E?

@Meddler @RiotScruffy @FeralPony @Statikk @Riot Stashu @Riot Repertoir

67 Comments

AlwaysByMySide10 votes

I hope you're ready for the mage mains to come into this thread and tell you that Kayle is only doing so well because she counters OP Zed and isn't too strong at all.

SaltyKracka6 votes

Frankly, I'm not their personal proctologist.

Not that countering midlane Zed, one of the most banned characters in the game, would account for the use or winrate of Kayle Top at all.

AlwaysByMySide12 votes

{quoted}

Frankly, I'm not their personal proctologist.

Not that countering midlane Zed, one of the most banned characters in the game, would account for the use or winrate of Kayle Top at all.

Ftr I agree with you, Kayle is one of the most ridiculous sleeper OP low-counterplay bullshit champions in the game. Thank God she's not played that often.

charcharmunro5 votes

Kayle is pretty much "ranged Tryndamere with a fuck-tankiness passive".

doombotMECHA7 votes

except she doesn't scale as well with lifesteal/crit, and so she isn't a giant rngfest early on+low mobility

not that she can't be a pain, she just can't be that pain

Aazzlano3 votes

I have played 350~ ranked games in Season 6. I think I've seen maybe two Kayles in this entire time, if that, so I don't know what you are talking about 'the use ... of Kayle Top' like she is widely popular.

She's really just a counterpick champion... she isn't OP in any way and the nerfs are incredibly random. Yes she does do a lot of things in one kit but her numbers have been nerfed enough to take her out of being a safe generalist pick. As you can see by her winrate by games played curve, Kayle main's (125+ plays) winrate drops significantly lower than the winrates of people who have played her 15-124 times. This means that people who pick her into any comp do much worse than people who play her occasionally to counter certain lanes or comps. Though I do agree she is an oppressive laner in a solid amount of matchups but so are a LOT of other champions, and mid lane has a lot more of these than top lane does (which is basically limited to Darius, Kayle, Quinn)

One of the major things about Kayle is that she naturally pushes lane so... just gank her if she is that much of a problem. She doesn't have any escapes outside of flash and can be easily killed especially if top lane.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymkErav6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-01T09:04:42.411+0000)

I hope your ready for the mage mains to come into this thread and tell you that Kayle is only doing so well because she counters OP Zed and isn't too strong at all.

What interest have mage mains got in Kayle lol.

Ackelope1 votes

They tend to expand their sphere of influence to just about anyone who builds AP, often more AP focused tanks, and in this case, Kayle.

Slamurai Jack8 votes

Kayle has enough crippling weaknesses that her strengths are justified. And she's about to take a sizeable nerf with the Rageblade changes anyway.

Sp33d Zer06 votes

Kayle is strong for sure, but there are much more dangerous and threatening champs out there.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oGAo5bIr-best-bans-by-tier-in-each-region-patch-68-a-statistical-analysis-taric-edition

I would like you to take a quick look at this.

Now, it may be my bias, because I am very much a statistical player, and much less of an emotional one, but I see Kayle at the bottom of the platinum list alone. To me, this screams that she is REALLY not that overwhelming, primarily due to her low popularity.

http://na.op.gg/champion/kayle/statistics/top

Now if you take a look at her actual stats (granted, these are all from platinum and above) she IS in fact sitting at second highest rated top lane position near 54%, and still has a strong win rate mid, hovering around 53%, but look at her pick rates. She is hardly showing up. Meaning the people who are playing her, are the people who LIKELY main her, so they will understand what to do with her. You must also keep in mind she does well against assassins because of her ult, and tanks, because of her mixed damage + shred on her passive. Fervor may be the icing, but it is not the issue for her. The meta we are in at this moment does not have a lot of bruisers in the top lane, or control mages in the mid lane, which in my limited experience mid and top, seem to be her worst matchups.

Please keep in mind, that playing ONE game of her, and then making a thread about it, does not mean that you know where the problem in a champions kit/numbers/synergies lies.

Play around 10-15 games of her, and you will really start to see where she has weaknesses, like falling behind due to early pressure.

TheOvermind6 votes

I've said this again and again kayle is vastly outdated and in desperate need of a rework that will modernize her kit. I would not mind seeing her gutted until that rework in order to preserve game balance overall. This is also what they did with poppy and are currently doing with Warwick and yorick

Blåbæret5 votes

Kayle is fine. Never had a problem with her. Idk what all the whine is about.

TWITCHTV ERONATE5 votes

Imo kayle is the last problem the game has right now. She mostly uses her E for waveclear and she has a pretty high cooldown on it early. you need to abuse the cooldown since there's nothing she can do when her E is done, besides farming minions with melee autoattacks which can be countered by gapclosers (which most meta toplaners have anyways: ekko, graves, tryndamere, maokai and so on). She's squishy af and her ult has a low duration, and even if she scales well into lategame, she's not the only one

The only thing I find OP about her is that her E autos proc rylai's, and she can kite you to death.

metaworldpeace105 votes

I'd like to leave a comment on this thread, chiming in on Kayle's balance overall. I won't say that I'm a "Kayle Main", but I've played her since the end of Season 2, when I started playing until now. First, I want to say that yes, I agree that she's not balanced right now and I'll tackle the reasons why and possible solutions to the "Kayle Problem"

  1. Fervor of Battle - Like you mentioned, its very easy for her to stack up fully with the nature of her kit. She becomes a ranged AAer with her E, her q is targeted and her W helps her escape/chase. She also stacks attack speed, allowing her to stack even faster on FoB. All these factors combine into her near perfect synergy with FoB. Champions like Lucian and Ezreal also go with FoB very well due to the nature of how much spell casting and auto attacking that they do.

2)item 3124 is a big issue for Kayle. Much like FoB stacking, its very easy for Kayle to stack rageblade, coupled with the cheap cost of the item, she spikes too early and too hard. item 3124 is getting a much deserved change/nerf next patch that I think will help delay Kayle's powerspike. Kayle has had a history of breaking items though namely : item 3100 and item 3091 + old Malady. This isn't something new, mainly because of the nature of her kit (auto attacking, tank busting mage)

  1. Her passive + 0 mana cost ulti and her Q - In all honesty, her E and W are pretty balanced. Her E and a significant cooldown during the early game, plus she auto pushes the wave with E activated, allowing her to be easy prey for ganks. She lacks any real mobility, outside of her W, which is a pretty weak mobility spell in of itself. The problem lies in the passive, ulti and q. Her ulti should have a mana cost, at the very least at rank 1 and rank 2. The spell is too versatile and potentially game changing for it to NOT cost mana. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a 100/50/0 mana cost for all 3 ranks. Her passive rewards her too much for building attack speed, she shouldn't be a tank shredder, while also dealing absurd damage to squishies without building penetration items. I wouldn't mind seeing a whole new passive rework on her. A new passive would allow for Riot to smooth over her balance curve and cause her not to spike so hard and so early. Her q is just a huge benefactor for the aforementioned issues. It gives her sticking power, stack of your passive, allows her to stack FoB quicker and decent damage. She needs her q to function, if her q was removed, she would have no way to ever get in range of any mage/ADC that has 600+ ranged spells or autos. Her q though, however, should not grant a stack of her passive at the very least.

My overall opinion is that she needs a small rework, possibly a Shen level rework? I think a new passive, mana cost on her ultimate and some small changes to her Q would go a long way in balancing her out, while toning down the frustration that she causes the opposing team. For now, before a rework, I'd make her ultimate cost mana again 100/50/0, her q no longer gives her a stack of Holy Fervor. Also, possibly lowering the amount of armor shred and MR shred to 10% from 15% and let it stack 5 times for 2% each stack?

This is my two ip

SaltyKracka2 votes

Frankly, the change I suggested is something in the way of QoL nerf. It takes a unnoticed amount of power from an unappreciated place, and hopes that she doesn't have to change much besides the lower numbers.

If I reaaaaaally wanted to nerf Kayle the right way without reworking her, I'd suggest something like

Q Mana Cost: 70/75/80/85/90 -> 80 at all ranks E CD: 16 -> 20/18.75/17.5/16.25/15 E Mana Cost: 45 -> 40/45/50/55/60

In an attempt at giving her some real windows of power early and actual mana costs after that.

But your idea of giving her ult actual mana costs back for at least the early ranks is also pretty good!

metaworldpeace102 votes

{quoted}

Frankly, the change I suggested is something in the way of QoL nerf. It takes a unnoticed amount of power from an unappreciated place, and hopes that she doesn't have to change much besides the lower numbers.

If I reaaaaaally wanted to nerf Kayle the right way without reworking her, I'd suggest something like

Q Mana Cost: 70/75/80/85/90 -> 80 at all ranks E CD: 16 -> 20/18.75/17.5/16.25/15 E Mana Cost: 45 -> 40/45/50/55/60

In an attempt at giving her some real windows of power early and actual mana costs after that.

But your idea of giving her ult actual mana costs back for at least the early ranks is also pretty good!

I'd agree with mana costs nerfs, but nerfing Her E is the wrong approach IMHO. Her E is her iconic ability and her "csing tool." A mana cost and a CD nerf would be too much. I'd recommend just giving the ultimate a scaling mana cost, 100-50-0 and increase her q mana cost as you mentioned. I think those would be reasonable nerfs, along with the changes to rageblade for next patch.

ff4sk4 votes

Kayle is only broken against melee ranged champions. As soon as her e is on cooldown you can fuck her up pretty badly.

I agree she benefits more from the mastery, cs, and guinsoo's than any other champion I've seen but to call her broken is a bit much. a few tweaks with her numbers should be enough to stop her from being a monster mid and late game. Also a nerf to guinsoo's(I know it's getting reworked) would knock her killing ability down a few steps

morris16 votes

It only has a 6 second downtime with NO CDR whatsoever. Her core item 3115 gives 20% CDR, and item 3100 or an early item 3158 gives 10%, meaning from 16 seconds it goes to.......... 11 seconds. 1 second to fuck her up. Without taking 40% CDR into account. Noice.

ff4sk1 votes

Ah I've only recently tried kayle from recommendations so didn't know her cooldown started as soon as she activities the ability. Yes, in that case then yeah you're right. my bad, thanks for correcting me

Renascent6 votes

Actually, with 40% cdr it reduces a 16s cd down to 9.6s. Essentially, Kayle E has no downtime at 40% cdr.

Remlap12233 votes

Just imaging how stupid Kayle is going to be after the rageblade rework. To quote Filthy Frank "This is so much cancer, I can feel the tumors growing on my back, and it's weighing me down."

Defended3 votes

Uhh dude.. There are champions like graves nidalee kindred soraka taric and zed out

But you're

complaining

about kayle...?

??........... Silver 2 op eh

Sp33d Zer02 votes

I mean, in plat and above she has somewhere around a 54% win rate. pretty dang high

Defended1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymkErav6,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-05-02T02:30:16.931+0000)

I mean, in plat and above she has somewhere around a 54% win rate. pretty dang high

Skarner has the same exact win rate in plat. Are you saying we need to nerf skarner too?

SaltyKracka1 votes
  1. No he doesn't.
  2. Riot's already said that they plan on giving him a VGU eventually.
AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Caitlyn is bae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymkErav6,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2016-05-02T04:10:49.406+0000)

Skarner has the same exact win rate in plat.

No he doesn't.

http://champion.gg/champion/Skarner

GrReaper963 votes

How do you catch an angel and pin it down? How do you find a word that describes Kayle? A warrior? A hero? A tyrant!

Tobias Brackner3 votes

I don't see what the problem with Kayle is. Given her AS nature she needs protracted fights or to be able to get right on the squishies, and unlike Azir she doesn't have the range or mobility to do that easily. While she gets a lot of range from E, it's still pretty short range tbh.

The Deckowner3 votes

I had always thought item 3124 is the issue

Irelia Bot3 votes

Make her ult cost mana again and perhaps make her E cost a bit more (say 55 up from the current 45mana) and she will have some limitations especially with how she tends to build no mana or mana regen items.

Only Play Darius2 votes

How about we just gut her again? Kayle is never remotely fun to deal with when strong.

iDarkWind2 votes

Dude you can't complain about her! She's like a poor mage, and also AP! She suffers so much! I think it's better to nerf Zed. (Ironic)

That's what you will probably read. She is a problem since a long time ago, but it's better nerf a bit more Zed, because he has 49% win rate so must be overpowered.

Mansana2 votes

Her passive is the problem. With her ranged hybrid damage it's really hard to itemize as a top laner. She has Q to Slow, and W to heal/ speed up, and an ult that prevents her from taking damage. Sounds like a champs' dream to deal with the tank meta. Riot was gonna nerf Kayle's passive but Kayle mains were too uptight about their champion doing to good in the meta and getting nerfed. They know her passive is what is making her relevant in terms of damage in the game. Free black cleaver/magic cleaver sign me up.

Edit: To be clear she is a rage blade abuser so we will see if any changes are needed after 6.9. Rage Blade change might make her worse but who knows if she will just go back to some former build and do fine.

SexySoapTurtle2 votes

Guess kayle is our latest victim to the whine fest. This guy probably had one bad game agaisnt kayle and is getting over the burns

Zoe Castillo2 votes

How do you solve a problem like Kayle top lane? How do you blow her ult and bring her down? How do you solve a problem like Kayle top lane? You let her shove top, you gank her a lot with Shaco

Many a champ you know you'd like to play there Many a champ she ought to be weak to But how do you get CS when every last hit is stress How do you keep Kayle from last hitting you?

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Kayle top lane? My elo would be higher if I knew

SaltyKracka1 votes

[zombie-nunu-hearts]

Solari Fortune1 votes

They talked about removing her E's ability to stack fervor, but that would create such a code storm and it might screw up a lot of other on hit stuff for her

Steel Blossom1 votes

So a little bit of MR shred is OP, but being able to make any one high priority target completely immune to everything is not. Especially in this dynamic queue era, with those 5 man premades of a challenger and his four bronze classmates....do you have any idea how much easier it is to carry against five less skilled players when you have a Kayle backing you up?

CoolKnightST1 votes

To be honnest, I would like to see a rework for her add some point something like:

  • Passive: Divine Blessing (reworked): Auto attacks let her drop feathers. When an ally or yourself steps on the feather they get healed and grant a tempory movementspeed boost.
  • Q: Reckoning (now is a skillshot)
  • W: Intervention (reworked): Kayle dashes backwards crossing her wings, creating a barrier that blocks all enemy projectiles and makes her immune for damage in front of her. During the duration of Intervention Kayle cannot auto attack. (note that the barrier works similar to braum shield so she can still be attacked from behind creating an intressting counterplay and allowing her Intervention work on a lower cooldown in her kit)
  • E: Righteous Fury
  • R: Holy Fervor (now is an active, this will also reset the cooldown of Righteous Fury)
MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

well shes basically a combination of jax and kog maw. and tryndamere. mixed damage from jax. range from kog maw. and tryndamere ult. shes too strong

Ralimak1 votes

I saw the title and was expecting a parody of "The Sound of Music"...

SaltyKracka1 votes

We got a couple later on. Unfortunately, I just couldn't twist her name to end in "ia".

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

Kayle will get an indirect nerf next patch with the change on guinsoo's

anyways wanna nerf kayle? nerf her utility,she has to much utility and dmg at the same time

Reduce the MS ap ratio on her W,Increase her ult cooldown,give her ult a 50 mana cost that doubles when used on her allies

grug1 votes

heres how you balance kayle. you remove the slow. completely

simple, beautiful and elegant fix. that amount of damage and safety is an inherent problem in this game.

Riot seems to want every hero to have the ability to 'kite' with the exception of singed lol.

TheJinxedOne1 votes

summoner 6 item 3009 item 3116

if youre caught. its MasterYi

SaltyKracka1 votes

And of course, Rylais is part of Kayle's core build...

TheJinxedOne1 votes

dont remember mentioning kayle in my comment. all singed here.

FourVsFive1 votes

Making fevor not stack twice with her E would help.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Funnily enough, that's exactly the change I suggested in the OP.

More from Gameplay

More by SaltyKracka