Give his R teleport back an energy cost.
Say, 50 energy to use the port back ensures that he's either going in with his energy fully topped off and getting out with nothing left to do for the rest of the fight, or that he goes in and has to stick around for a few seconds after unloading all of his burst.
Junkο18 votesAs a Zed main, this wouldn't do anything. You will ALWAYS at least get energy back from WE so the cost is nonexistant. Late game Zed's abilities cost 125 energy without taking into account any refunds so it would be nonexistent. Just like Shen E energy refund now does nothing because you need to wait 1 second to be able to cast both Q and W
SaltyKracka1 votesAh yes, but that's late game Zed. This change is not only targeted more at early and mid-game Zed (especially when Zed's lane has just hit 6)
In the case of lategame Zed, it's still more energy than he currently uses. Since energy does take a(n extremely short) amount of time to regenerate, it's more time in a teamfight that he's doing nothing but autoattacking.
Of course, it's a number that can always be adjusted, but I put what I thought would be a good baseline for the whole game down.
Junkο1 votesAt level 9 Zed's entire combo costs 145 energy, so as soon as level 9 this change becomes irrelevant. That's not counting the energy regen by hitting 2 Qs or Es, also he has 6 seconds to port back so he will regen all the energy he needs before it runs out.
A better thing to do would be just to revert him to the way he was on release, R spawns a shadow next to the target and has limited range, that way you can't chase him across the map only for him to disappear, also you need to use W as your escape which has a lower duration, that means CCing him will actually be a viable counter outside of major teamfights.
SaltyKracka1 votesYou're right. It shouldn't affect Zed too much.
But if it forces him to stick around where he can get cced and bursted for even a bit longer, then I think it's a change worth making.
Mecha MaIphite6 votesI remember a guy bringing up how nobody whined about him until they nerfed mana regen.
We could always, you know. Buff that a bit.
TomA3X4 votesI think the issue with Zed is he's a noobstomper, just like katarina. At Silver Down, he seems unbalanced, because many people don't have the mechanical skill to deal with him. At around Gold elo up, you have to be good with him to get anywhere, he's still strong, but you need skill.
It feels rubbish lower down because a bad Zed can still pick up a few kills by just pressing R and AAing.
Very Hard Engage3 votesThe issue with Zed is he's a noobstomper, just like katarina. At Silver Down, he seems unbalanced, because many people don't have the mechanical skill to deal with him. At around Gold elo up, you have to be good with him to get anywhere, he's still strong, but you need skill.
It feels rubbish lower down because a bad Zed can still pick up a few kills by just pressing R and AAing.
wrong again, zed has a static 47 win rate through all divisions and tiers. check lolking before you spew again.
zed wins games because teams often lack cc, and zed can freely do his combo without restraint. and no cc = unstoppable champion.
RedTrinketGoneHa12 voteswrong again, zed has a static 47 win rate through all divisions and tiers. check lolking before you spew again.
zed wins games because teams often lack cc, and zed can freely do his combo without restraint. and no cc = unstoppable champion.
So technically by your standards, Heimerdinger needs to be gutted cause he has a 54% winrate in most divisions? Klol, you're just as bad as the people that cried for Kass nerfs while he was sitting at a reasonable 47.51% winrate.
Very Hard Engage3 votesSo technically by your standards, Heimerdinger needs to be gutted cause he has a 54% winrate in most divisions? Klol, you're just as bad as the people that cried for Kass nerfs while he was sitting at a reasonable 47.51% winrate.
people play heimer in higher elos because its easy to farm with his turrets. they will rarely miss cs and with his long range he can just spam from the back line. if you want to balance wins/losses between the champions then all kits are fine, they just need damage/range/cd tweeks across the board.
zed is OP because he has safety mobility and infinite spam in lane capabilities. its not his kit or insane damages that makes him broken, its his energy that does.
Junkο2 votesAre you saying higher elos need help to get perfect cs? Cause they don't
Talamare8 votesI think issue the with Zed is he's a noobstomper, just like katarina. At Silver Down, he seems unbalanced, because many people don't have the mechanical skill to deal with him. At around Gold elo up, you have to be good with him to get anywhere, he's still strong, but you need skill.
It feels rubbish lower down because a bad Zed can still pick up a few kills by just pressing R and AAing.
Zed does really well in LCS games he is chosen...
agbudar4 votesgive rammus his 3 seconds taunt back and you will see all the zed mains come in here complain taunt is too op
SpecterVonBaren1 votesI remember how the other day I was playing Rumble and had bought Rylais and killed the enemy Zed attempting to split push top and he complained about how Rylais was OP (because of how strong Rumble's E slow is with it).
Only Play Darius1 votesIT USED TO BE 3 SECONDS?
But in all seriousness the removal of certain CC has let zed get out of control. Silence destroys zed, but riot says that silence is a toxic form of CC so they are slowly phasing it out of the game.
doublelift fg3 votesZed needs to wait a 1.5 sec delay to come back
like veigar
RisottoNero3 voteshttp://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-313-notes
Search for Zed and look at the change they did to his ult. Revert that so he doesn't have the option to port back to safety after doing his thing. Sure now connecting his E and Q is easy again but at least he will need to walk or flash out of tower range when he's done with his level 6 all in instead of swapping back and doing his "cool guys don't lookt at explosion".
ChargeItDownMid2 votes[deleted]
JedenVojak1 votesAll riot needs is to remove the bonus ad on his shadow. Zed does not need a steroid, much less a +% ad steroid which stacks multiplicative with every stat he can purchase from items.
All assassins need steroids.
ChargeItDownMid2 votes[deleted]
JedenVojak2 votesLike leblanc? Kha'zix? Katarina?
Leblanc and Katarina have a marks which they pop for damage
Kha'zix has his isolation bonus damage
So... Yes?
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
JedenVojak1 votesYou are getting conditional damage and steroids mixed up. All of those champions have spells that can do additional damage similar to zed's death mark. Those are fine for assassins. None of them have an additional % ad steroid like zed has on his living shadow. That is completely unnecessary for zed's kit and needs to be removed to balanced zed.
Hmm, I had always assumed that a "steroid" was a thing you used that gave you more damage, whether that was an attack speed active or an AD passive or a mark.
In any case I don't think Zed's bonus attack damage is bad, since without it, his other scalings would be kinda meh; all of his ablities (save his ultimate) scale based off of his bonus ad, not his full AD, unlike some other AD burst champions - this means that, caster wise, he's gonna be behind on damage since bonus AD is just naturally not as big as bonus AP;
sorta like, he needs to burst, but AD by itself isn't big enough.
Does that make sense?
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
JedenVojak1 votesDoesn't really make sense for zed. He already has a ton of damage and his ult is a very strong multiplier on top of that. His w steroid gives him more damage than he needs and is pushing him from being balanced to being overpowered.
I don't actually think Zed has "Tons of Damage": the bases on his abilities are not especially high - he depends much more on his bonus AD scaling for damage than damage from the abilities themselves. I would say the reason for the existance of the steroid is to make his damage much more dependant on scalars from items and the like; otherwise his base damages would need to be increased, which would end up giving him more early game power without items.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
JedenVojak1 votesWhy would the base damage need to be higher? He already has 235 on his q and 190 on his e. Both of them are manaless abilities with aoe damage and very low cooldown. Zed doesn't depend on the +ad from his w for anything, he can functional very well without it and keeping it will only keep zed overpowered.
First, Zed is not overpowered.
Second, while his abilities are manaless, they are not resourceless, and if he spams them off cooldown he will not have the energy to perform his burst when he actually needs it.
Finally, Zed only has 2 (well 3 but his ult is sort of a weird thing where it's like a multiplier of his existing damage, rather than a pure damage ability on its own) damage abilities, and the bonus AD ratios on those are only "okay". If you compare his ratios to Lee Sin, Talon, or Riven, with multiple abilities in the 90-100s range, you see his ad ratio's are actually a bit less than average; the %bonus AD increase only serves to bring those ratios up to be on par with other AD caster type champions so, 125% bonus AD on his Q, and 100% bonus AD on his E, both of which are totally reasonable being AD scaling ratios, since he has only 2 direct damage abilities. This is especially true as the scaling bonus ad steroid is directly tied to his W level, which he levels last.
I think you're really overblowing his damage numbers.
Kuroi862 votesOr leave his ult alone and just move a bit of the base from his Q and E to the scaling and call it a day.
JedenVojak2 votesLee Sin is not overpowered, he's also pretty average as far as fighters go. His strength comes from the fact that he has a very long range engage (based on a skillshot), a separate mobility ability apart from his engage (kinda like Fizz), and good jungle sustainability. In terms of actual team fighting and duels against opponents, he's on par with other fighters like Irelia and Jax.
As far as "being on his level goes", that was not the point I was trying to make at all, but rather that in regards to Bonus AD ratios on AD caster type champions, Zeds is not especially high, even slightly lower than average.
Trade off map pressure? I don't know what you mean by that. If you're talking about split pushing, every AD focused champion with some mobility is better at that than champions that don't have that combination of traits(champs like Rengar and Master Yi are notorious for this).
Most importantly to the topic at hand, his numbers are not very high, only around average.
I feel like, you're just kind of emoting because his damage feels really high (since he has multipliers around his ult, passive and yes, his AD steroid), but he needs to fulfill a lot of conditions to get all of that damage off in proper order - so when the stars align and Zed plays properly, his damage becomes really big, but it's big because it's a sum of a lot of parts, not all just straight unconditional casting power like an Annie or Talon (which is just no hoops tons of DAMAGE RIGHT NOW). If you look at his damages compared to other champions, its really not that extreme - especially since he's a caster assassin with no real CC or utility.
SaltyKracka1 votes...Did you get the wrong topic? That's...just about the least relevant pile of rant I've seen here yet.
JedenVojak1 votes...Did you get the wrong topic? That's...just about the least relevant pile of rant I've seen here yet.
I was responding to Haaaaaalps assertions that Zed is overpowered, but you are correct that it is not relevant to your original topic, I apologize.
I would say Zed is in a pretty balanced spot right now, and adding an energy cost to his ultimate is largely unnecessary - the nature of his ultimate requires him to attack his opponent when he gets there, if only to unload his burst before porting back, and his ultimate is very telegraphed in execution, which means you can react to stun him when he appears (behind you I believe).
Thefriendlyorc1 votesI think making his q do aoe damage only when he uses w to extend it would make his lane phase more bearable for the mana users out there. Might also prioritize him using his melee slash to farm, meaning his constant unrelenting poke is less overbearing.
Axests1 votesif his ult costed 50 energy out of his 200, his e also costs 50 mana, this w costs 20 maxed out, his q costs 50 maxed out. At level 6 zed will typically have 3 points in q costing 65 energy and 1 in w costing 40 energy. This means his combo would cost 205 mana for full, of course with energy regen this isn't a problem. Late game he also has some breathing room for his energy. I like your idea for his ult, he has to be full energy to go in with his full combo and then he has to get out, and late game he can continue dueling (can't forget energy regen with e).
AMYS GRAVE1 votes
welcome to the world of balance.
also zed's skill rotation returns 80 energy, 40 each for q and e and is proced by minions
Wheatloaf1 votesThis could break his kit just as quickly as make it. No doubt his energy costs would need at least minor tweaking across the board.
SaltyKracka2 votesGiven that Zed currently has the most forgiving energy costs and easiest energy return mechanics of all the ninjas (hell, the only energy-user who actually feels constrained by it is Shen) the point of this is to actually make energy a limit on him, instead of merely an incentive to avoid cooldown reduction like it is now.
So...no.
Wheatloaf2 votesI wouldn't really say he has the easiest energy return mechanic (he has to hit a single ability twice on a target, as opposed to Shen walking up to some and autoattacking them for energy back), though he does feel less constrained by it, especially with how hard his abilities scale down in cost with level. Just adding an extra energy cost to his kit, however, won't necessarily solve anything, especially given they'd have to rebalance most of his costs around having that new one (energy seems so infinite because it regenerates so fast during spell cooldowns; add too many energy costs and you have to figure out how many spells you want him to be able to use in succession, which spells you want him to be able to use in succession...). I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's almost definitely not a simple cure-all.
SaltyKracka1 votesJust adding an extra energy cost to his kit, however, won't necessarily solve anything, especially given they'd have to rebalance most of his costs around having that new one (energy seems so infinite because it regenerates so fast during spell cooldowns; add too many energy costs and you have to figure out how many spells you want him to be able to use in succession, which spells you want him to be able to use in succession...).
That's actually the major point of this change. Zed, especially lategame Zed, does not actually have to worry about running out of energy before he's finished his whole combo, even if he's been poking beforehand. So how do you give the enemy a chance to play against that? You give his ult an opportunity cost. He's still jamming it in and bursting down a target, but if he was incautious about his energy usage then he's stuck there and hopefully the rest of the enemy team can collapse on him and get a return kill.
Tengrichan1 votesIt should be the other way around. Casting his ulti now costs let's say 50 energy. First basic auto attack on the marked target will grant 50 energy and the ability to swap back to the shadow created by his ulti. And with that energy management will be required.
SaltyKracka2 votesUm. No.
This isn't a change to prevent Zed from diving in. It's not supposed to be a neutral change. This is a flat nerf, and it's meant to punish Zeds who don't manage their energy by preventing them from having R's easy escape.
TheGrot1 votesZed does not need a nerf. There's more counterplay to him than most mid laners. Exhaust, QSS, CC, Zhonyas, or if he's not fed you can probably just kill him or at least force him to shadow back before he does anything.
Imperial Japan1 votesGood idea but zed in a way is balanced, it'll be cool to see his r nerfed tho. Maybe people will have to save w for escaping or something
YossarianSensei1 votesSure Zed's ghey to lane against, but we have to remember why mana regen was nerfed in the first place
SaltyKracka1 votesBecause Rito buffed Ziggs and Xerath out of all proportion?
Big Papa Daddy1 votesTry playing Kayle or Lissandra....
admiralcourvoisi1 votesHey guys, what about this idea? Zed's Q is now a colliding skillshot, instead of a pass-through. Removes the "infinite through-wave poke" and reduces his split-pushing abilities, while preserving his ability to nuke someone. It would also make placing your shadows require more skill, since you couldn't have your shadow-shuriken pass through the minion waves. He can keep his damage, I just don't like that he has infinite through-wave poke.
Bisaknosp1 votesthats not enough they also should remove the w passive
SaltyKracka1 votesbaby steps
otherwise you get massive bitching like all the kassadick fanboys
Bisaknosp1 votesyup he is broken again and will be nerfed again hopefully
Only Play Darius1 votesHow about get rid of the passive on his living shadow?
Good luck surviving a 700AD autoattack late game.