Honestly, traditional supports need serious work if they're going to be steadily replaced by mages. Having mages down bot lane as carries or supports is fine and all, but not when it highlights a peculiar issue about the traditional supports.
RiotRiot Sotere11 votesMalzahar is so much fun as a support.
I don't feel weak as a traditional support. Feel like it's my heyday with Redemption.
Edit to add: Feel like that may have been a bit insensitive. Think there's value in people having a wide variety of champions to pick bottom lane. The traditional support pool is fairly small, and often not people's cup of tea. That said, I think generally a team feels better having a traditional support contribute more utility and safety for carries, and then getting their damage from another position. It is hard for me to begrudge people who want to go more aggressive when the traditional options remain pretty strong, and in my opinion also feel more rewarding than they have historically.
chipndip19 votesI'd honestly have a long talk about Redemption and some other support itemization topics I've been on a mini-warpath about recently, but I doubt anyone has the care to read it all, much less a rioter.
Regardless, mages going bot lane, from what I'm seeing, is highlighting a major issue with the more traditional mages and how we're treating them.
LatetotheRace4 votesReally though, Redemption is cancer.
Spârky1 votesPreach this.
LankPants6 votesThe traditional support pool is fairly small, and often not people's cup of tea. That said, I think generally a team feels better having a traditional support contribute more utility and safety for carries, and then getting their damage from another position.
Why does this only work one way? Why is it OK for champs like Vel'koz/Zyra/Brand to move into the bot lane as supports but the second Sona or Janna see any play mid they're removed and you make sure they never get played mid again?
VoidStaresBack3 votesIn large part it's because of the way that enchanters function. They usually have large amounts of utility, strong early games, and decent crowd control, meaning that if they end up viable in solo lanes they (for the most part) become ridiculously oppressive.
LankPants2 votesThe only thing that mage supports have more of than a traditional mid lane mage is ally affecting utility. When you look at mage supports who you might consider running mid lane you have champs with varying strengths of CC and damage that varies greatly throughout the game.
For example Sona is a low CC mage with moderate early damage, low midgame damage and high lategame damage. She's not in any way 'ridiculously oppressive', Janna would be more on the oppressive laner side, but I'd say it's OK because she does fall off incredibly hard in terms of damage.
Do you know what is insanely oppressive though? Zyra support. For some reason people don't hold this to the same standard. I don't think I've ever seen any actual support be as oppressive in any lane as Zyra support is now and I played through Janna being a popular mid laner.
TyrekGoldenspear5 votesMy guess is ratios and damages.
If a support is strong mid, then they are usually really strong in a 2v2 situation because if they can do well without gold as a support and do even better as a mid without xp drains or gold deficits.
If a midlaner is strong mid, their level advantage and gold is gimped going support and if they manage to do well that's okay.
Basically what I'm saying is that supports are meant to live off of little gold, so if they are strong enough to solo lane they are unbearable in 2v2 lanes because of all the utility in their kits that is meant to be early-game focused.
LankPants4 votesBasically what I'm saying is that supports are meant to live off of little gold, so if they are strong enough to solo lane they are unbearable in 2v2 lanes because of all the utility in their kits that is meant to be early-game focused.
Let me reverse this argument. Mages are meant to scale with gold. If a mage is functioning at nearly the same level without gold as with then it probably signifies a huge problem with their kit. They probably don't have the right balance of ratios and bases, their bases are extremely out of wack and it's leading to them not wanting to go mid because there's no actual benefit in their scaling.
Both of these arguments are true, and they're both things that need solutions. These arguments do apply to some champs less than others however. Vel'koz seems to be fine in both roles, Lulu wasn't particularly oppressive when she was played midlane, although she also wasn't a support.
There are certainly support champs who could be balanced to play in mid without being too strong in a 2v2 situation. I think Sona is a good example of this, while she does have some kit power in buffing allies a surprising amount of her kit also acts as selfish utility. Her passive is the same with or without allies, her Q losses a small amount of unreliable damage, her shield and heal still effect herself, her E is mostly selfish MS the aura is far weaker than what she gains and her R is in thew same boat as her passive.
You could easily put Sona in a workable place as both an offensive support and a utility oriented midlane. All she'd need is a little bit of AoE so she has at least some wave control and she'd be playable in the midlane, she's already very close to it TBH. I don't think Sona would be particularly oppressive at this, she'd be a strong counter to poke but not an unbeatable counter since you can attack her mana pool and she'd be quite weak to a lot of burst champs. There aren't many midlaners who fall into this category to begin with, mages who counter poke are quite rare, the only mage who I can think of who plays above average into poke without themself being a poke mage is Orianna, so I do think this would actually be an interesting thing to have.
On the flip side we have Zyra, a mage who is unplayable in her original role. She's had so many changes to force her to play support that she's no longer viable mid. She utterly oppresses other supports though. She is what you are arguing against, just from the other direction.
You have to judge these things champ by champ, there are some champs who will work in both roles and some who won't. When you misjudge you create Zyra.
TyrekGoldenspear3 votesI agree that this is a champ by champ notion, and as for Zyra I never found that much trouble against her even though I take 
support. (Wierd huh?)
But my post was meant to be a generalistic guide to why these mages work the way they do.
For example, take two of the common mages being played support right now. 
and 
Their CC is next to nothing. They bring mostly damage. They like having gold and levels so they are gimped. But they have strong bases so they are viable bot.
Late Game their performance will vary wildly, but they overall provide nothing but damage. That's okay, sometimes team comps don't need as much utility.
But then we have mages like 
and 
Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if they had the base damages of a midlaner (like Brand and Vel) but also had the utility they currently sport now? Why would I take Brand mid if Janna could do comparable damage AND be ungankable?
You see, you are correct in saying that some support mages can be played mid with tweaks, but if you notice the ones you mentioned have little utility, in this case CC.
Sona has little to no CC and is squishy as tissue paper, so if she was changed to be a viable midlaner and support this might work out fine.
However a Support mage like say, Zyra with her snares and plants and all that, would destroy other midlaners becuase She has the Excellent Base Damage of a Support but also has the scaling and CC that beats out other midlanerss
What I can see here is that mages fall into a spectrum of having Utility--------------------------Damage.
The ones more on the damage side can work support IF their bases are good enough, but they won't crowd out other choices because they are mostly meant to cheese kills and get snowballed and in the midlane they are in their natural habitat.
However mages more on the ultility side have to be watched to make sure that they aren't too good in a solo lane becuase they will have the damage of a midlaning mage but have the safety and peel of a support mage.
Make sense?
LankPants4 votesHowever a Support mage like say, Zyra with her snares and plants and all that, would destroy other midlaners becuase She has the Excellent Base Damage of a Support but also has the scaling and CC that beats out other midlanerss
This is so far backwards.
Let me spell this out for you, ZYRA IS A MID LANE MAGE. She was initially designed as a mid lane mage and when Riot was reworking her that is what the community told them to rework her into. Her support role is a corruption of this. She should be balanced with priority on mid, not support. Mid lane Zyra is not the problem, it's the solution.
Miror B5 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymPNjgLM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-05T03:42:35.655+0000)
Malzahar is so much fun as a support.
I don't feel weak as a traditional support. Feel like it's my heyday with Redemption.
Edit to add: Feel like that may have been a bit insensitive. Think there's value in people having a wide variety of champions to pick bottom lane. The traditional support pool is fairly small, and often not people's cup of tea. That said, I think generally a team feels better having a traditional support contribute more utility and safety for carries, and then getting their damage from another position. It is hard for me to begrudge people who want to go more aggressive when the traditional options remain and pretty strong, and in my opinion also feel more rewarding than they have historically.
See, for me things like malz support (or brand, god I dislike brand as a support) kinda go against what their reworks intended for them to be. Both were supposed to be mid-lane mages, who thanks to ridiculously exploitable kits (let's not forget the videos when malz was able to solo dragons/barons 4mins into games) are now infecting other lanes thanks to their high base damages and ability to reliably poke from quite far away. Oh, and from what I can understand people prefer traditional supports not because they offer more but because the chances of someone "trolling" are far less. If I were to lock in something like Zed/LB support (the latter I did quite frequently before the mage reworks), I'd probably be criticized heavily in the pre-game even if I was ridiculously good on it compared to something like alistar/taric.
J Eevo3 votesOh, and from what I can understand people prefer traditional supports not because they offer more but because the chances of someone "trolling" are far less.
I'll just pop in and say - everyone prefers traditional supports except for people who have to play them, fact is, playing most supports is not fun and feels like a chore to the player having to be relegated to a babysitter early, and then fading into obscurity late. Getting mages into botlane might alleviate that, as they're way more fun to play, so if they can do their job sufficiently without being overbearing it shouldn't be a problem. Especially considering how much of a hassle autofill is, and how rare support mains are. It'd be nice if the pool of champions would be higher without having to wait what could be years, before we get a varied choice of new support champions.
Jinzo Torrance3 votesMalzahar high base damage, don't drink and post.
Risk of Fate1 votesThe issue I have with most of the traditional supports is that they're very binary in their playstyle. This isn't bad, I have a lot of fun playing Sona, but of all of them, Nami and Leona tend to be my more favorite picks because they require a bit more interaction than simply mashing a button and having a massive AoE ability. Bard was the most interesting support that I've seen, only issue is his heal is just hilariously bad in late game and is better suited to a MS buff.
Also, when I'm support I really want to do more than just heal and shield, hence why I love Nami's E. I want to buff my team, debuff enemy somehow, not just slows and stuns. Sometimes, I like to zone out playing Lux and get this amazing feeling of being this tactical mage on a battlefield with my stuns and snares, forcing enemies into certain positions to better set up plays.
For the most part, I don't really feel weak moreso I just don't feel like I'm contributing much to fights. Yay, I pressed E as Janna and gave an AD steroid to my carry. Oh wow, I clicked W on an ally and healed them for a bajillion health. Compare it to, say, Braum who jumps in, smashes his shield in your face and blocks all the autos to finish by an impressive 4 man knockup.
This is why I started to want to play Ahri more in the support role because I get the feeling of contributing while at the same time I get to have fun because I feel more interactive in fights. Only thing keeping me from making it standard is a high mana cost. Would be nice for an item that adds a bit extra to your pool if you're playing something like that, even if it's just flat mana.
Just my thoughts, I like supporting though I do not like supporting in this current 5 man bot lane meta.
PureSilvrr1 votesIkr about most of it, but most supports don't feel like your doing anything because you never receive credit. One match as soraka I had helped my whole team live through a teamfight buy healing everybody when they were low, silencing people and and a well timed ult I knew I did stuff, but many people need to be thanked for what they do
Stephenizgod1 votesI feel like there is nothing wrong with Supports right now, if anyone thinks they are weak try playing Nami and buying Redemption... omg is that fun watching your whole teams HP bounce up and down :D and then watching the enemies disappear.
I don't think Malzahar supp is a problem, I think that Malz is finding more success as a Support is a problem. His rework turned a lot of malz mains off of him, but that is just inevitable i suppose. However him going Support does go against his design as a mage, the reason he is successful down there is due to abusing somewhat "unhealthy" aspects of his kit that are hard to take advantage in a duo lane. Not saying he is OP, just that these things that usually gate him Mid lane (or Top or I suppose even Jungle) don't really hold him back in the Support role. Its not like it pushes him over the edge, its just a little sad that he has become what he is now.
chipndip11 votesThat isn't supports being strong (even if Nami is a strong support). That's REDEMPTION being strong. That's a band-aid, not a real solution.
Stephenizgod1 votesYea that is Supports being strong though, I mean ADC's are only strong because they build IE and Hurricane. Tanks are only strong because they build Sunfire and Visage. Supports finally have a "powerspike" item that is not only strong by itself but also has great synergy with their kits. Admittedly Redemption is strong right now, but it makes Healing and Shielding supports very good and it gives non-healing Supports a way to heal their team. It makes Supports feel stronger.
chipndip11 votesDifference: Those items primarily buff the stats of the champion. If your champ doesn't synergize well with those items, it's not useful for you to build them. Just like when I had Cinderhulk Fiddle in my tie breaker Plat 2 promo game before the last one I finally passed (Yes I was salty).
For Redemption/Locket, these items and their power are almost entirely independent from your champ. It has nothing to do with Nami being good with Locket and more with "Well, this item is just X amount of good, so slap it on the support since they aren't buying anything else anyway".
You even said it yourself about how universal it is. Healing sups use it. Non-healing ones use it and now they have a heal. It has nothing to do with being a well implemented item. It's just fucking op. Anything that's op feels good to use.
Stephenizgod1 votesThat is because Supports don't scale with stats, building items on them that buff their stats is useless, they have poor scalings and generally are useful based on how well they Sustain, Peel, Engage/disengage, CC, etc.
The reason Locket and Redemption are so good is because it offers them an actual powerspike, they legitimately feel better after buying these items. Sightstone and the gold income items are absolutely necessary for them to buy, they don't really offer a powerspike either.
It is only universal because it is over-tuned, if the heal wasn't so powerful on Redemption it wouldn't be built on every Support (and some tanks). It will still have a large positive impact on the Support role even if they were to nerf it. It doesn't only offer sustain it also boosts healing and shielding which every real support does in some way, shape or form (whether through items or their kits).
You can't look at the Support role the same way you can other roles, they don't scale the same way, they don't hit powerspikes the same way, and their usefulness isn't gauged or judged the same way. Building items like Redemption is how they have larger impacts other than Vision-bitch and useless meatshield. So Supports are indeed strong right now, once they tune down Redemption it will become more apparent. The only issue I have is there are not more option for them, they are still being forced to buy Redemption and Locket because it makes them stronger. If there were more powerful items that catered to the different types of Supports, the role would feel much better to play.
Lucifer2 votesI don't get why enchanters are being encouraged to be tanks, to be honest. Redemption should really be an AP item for how powerful the active is, or at least have an AP alternative for enchanters to buy. I'm a firm believer that healthy support itemization looks like squishy, but impactful and not hard to kill. I don't think anyone would be so annoyed with Soraka's current state if she was able to be killed instead of being a massive tank. We need more items like Ardent that fit in with utility scaling.
Hellioning2 votesI'll have no problem with people taking mages bot lane if I can start taking enchanters mid lane.
VoidStaresBack2 votesI mean...
Zilean and Karma already go midlane, so wish granted?
Hellioning1 votesKarma is barely an enchanter. Fair point about Zilean, though.
Aptest1 votes1
redemption feels like crap to buy, and also feels like crap to use. in addition it is an agency sink.
2
in contrast ZZ feels really good to buy and use EVEN THOUGH IT HAS LESS POWER.
3
team feels better when they do the damages and the support is a 0-agency "helper" because that is how they get all the agency for themselves
and they can go suck on a carrot.
4
you wanna do sup malzahar? sure mate. come at me bro.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesRedemption, Locket of the Iron Solari, Zz'rot Portal, Ruby Sightstone.
Sadly, many players just don't understand the importance of utility and vision.
Vegathron1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymPNjgLM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-05T03:42:35.655+0000)
Malzahar is so much fun as a support.
I don't feel weak as a traditional support. Feel like it's my heyday with Redemption.
Edit to add: Feel like that may have been a bit insensitive. Think there's value in people having a wide variety of champions to pick bottom lane. The traditional support pool is fairly small, and often not people's cup of tea. That said, I think generally a team feels better having a traditional support contribute more utility and safety for carries, and then getting their damage from another position. It is hard for me to begrudge people who want to go more aggressive when the traditional options remain pretty strong, and in my opinion also feel more rewarding than they have historically.
I main malz mid and consider my self fairly decent at him (36th or something in oce not that thats hard) http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=Vegathron and i 100% honestly feel like he is utter garbage as a support and hugely overrated by the current hype. he has sloooow damage and short range with nothing else to offer pre 6 then even after 6 all you do is make sure hes shield is down (against an adc it should be) and when he ult you just hard cc him as sup straight away. sooo overrated i dont do it well and when i play against him bot as a support i destroy him. its annoying people are taking my main as a support when im mid quite frankly..
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymPNjgLM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-05T03:42:35.655+0000)
Malzahar is so much fun as a support.
I don't feel weak as a traditional support. Feel like it's my heyday with Redemption.
Those are both atrocious arguments.
1 was an appeal to emotion which is always automatically wrong. You completely ignored his entire argument with "BUT ITS FUN LOL" ... that's not an argument I would expect Riot to make. You are Riot, you should have better responses than that.
2 was another subjective argument but it was even worse because you are justifying it by virtue of an overpowered item [Redemption]. Pigeon holing supports into requiring a certain item to even be able to function is the very definition of brokenly underpowered.
MagicFlyingLlama3 votesRemember when malazar was a jungler, ADC, support, mid, and top? That was pretty recently.
Now he is just a mid and niche support.
PureSilvrr2 votesNah. only like 3 people play malzahar support, and its only really for the ult. Hes a mid and niche jungler, but 6.23 ruined both of these... #revert6.23changes
WoonStruck2 votesHe's more of a support than a jungler atm. lol
Sukishoo1 votesEh, sure that maybe people in lower elo play him like that but he's become very popular in Diamond+ as a support http://na.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/support It will probably begin to effect the rest of us soon if it keeps up though (since everyone likes to copy each other XD).
PureSilvrr1 votesWhy... now hes gonna get nerfs because of the incoming salty ads's/supports
Sukishoo1 votesJust because something is POPULAR doesn't mean it gets nerfed. If it's causing a major issue is when it gets nerfed.
EyesOfTheFox1 votesHe's about 50/50 in my opinion. He has a shield, a stun, a suppression, and a silence which is overloaded for any support champion.
From what I've seen observing all ELO's via YouTube/Twitch:
Arkale1 votesHe has a stun? He has a silence on Q, A suppression ult, and a hated passive shield, but where is the stun?
EyesOfTheFox1 votesI lump suppression/stun together. Sorry if you were confused and wanted to point out someone's lack of knowledge without offering any real input on the topic at hand.
Arkale2 votesJust wanted to clarify that he didn't have both a stun and a suppression on hand to use separately. Sorry if you didn't want replies.
EyesOfTheFox1 votesFair enough. Hard to tell tone of voice on a board message. Thought you were just trying to be an asshole.
AdeBug1 votesthe real problem is the weaker bot tower, make it have same hp as the rest
chipndip11 votesHow does that have anything to do with the match-up in the lane?
AdeBug1 votesmages dont hurt the tower that much, so it doesnt matter if u have a support or a full hp as an enemy (tho velkoz supp is a bitch and i ban him), but the weakened tower bot + first turret blood attracts ganks like light attracts moths, so you're not safe under it anymore, cant farm from under turret when 4 ppl diving you. cant u see all the threads about bot lane sucking atm and how the turret can be taken 3 minutes in?
Leon Etoile1 votesThe issue is they have nerfed Malz out of mid lane. He has become a supportive champ.
lightdragoon881 votes.#revert6.23changes
Leon Etoile1 voteshe's broken in bot lane now but too weak for mid..
Daddy Ants1 votesGet rid of mage supports from botlane pls, especially malzahar.
/disgruntled adc main
