@Meddler: Do you think Sightstone will get a lookover in Preseason 6?

darkdill·Sep 21, 2015·41 votes·43,058 views

I've said before on how I feel Sightstone is obsolete due to trinkets doing its function in a healthier fashion (placing the burden of vision on the team rather than on one person), while also having absolutely terrible slot efficiency. And since junglers end up using the item better than supports do, it's safe to say that it's not working entirely as intended.

I'm of the opinion that Sightstone could be removed to shift more of the warding burden off supports, but I'm sure people will hate that idea. So to ask, what's being done about SS and RSS in preparation for Season 6? I hope it's something besides a big fat "NOTHING!"

125 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 21, 201581 votes

It's fairly likely there'll be some Sightstone changes in the preseason. Amongst other things we're looking at adding some different upgrade options instead of just Sightstone -> Ruby Sightstone.

YumaS2AstralSep 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

It's fairly likely there'll be some Sightstone changes in the preseason. Amongst other things we're looking at adding some different upgrade options instead of just Sightstone -> Ruby Sightstone.

Riot said that they don't want to buff Sightstone too much otherwise other roles could abuse it and/or it could become a must-purchase for supports, delaying them the opportunity to buy other interesting items.

Is there any problem in other roles abusing it? Because to be honest SS isn't really a slot efficient item for any champion that is not a support, or a jungler tank, and even jungler tanks are not forced to buy this.

The must purchase can be solved by doing to the upgrades the same thing that you did for the trinket upgrades; not allowing them to be purchased until a certain level.

RiotMeddlerSep 21, 201529 votes

There are a couple of things we want to be careful about with Sightstone. The first is avoiding making it an item that's appealing to too wide a range of positions. On one hand, too little vision's bad for the game, it stops you from making informed plays and instead just forces blind risk or extreme conservatism. On the other hand however too much vision's also a problem, shutting down the possibility for action and leading to dull, long, low action games. Sightstone not being bought too frequently in any single game's an important part of trying to keep that vision balance right.

The second thing we want to try and do is make it so supports don't feel forced to upgrade their Sightstone to the final tier before picking up any other items, given how much that surpresses chances to make item choices. At the same time, the upgrade should still decent for the slot. Decent slot efficiency, but uninspiring gold efficiency for the upgrade, might be where we end up as a result.

GinoSoldierSep 21, 20157 votes

{quoted}

There are a couple of things we want to be careful about with Sightstone. The first is avoiding making it an item that's appealing to too wide a range of positions. On one hand, too little vision's bad for the game, it stops you from making informed plays and instead just forces blind risk or extreme conservatism. On the other hand however too much vision's also a problem, shutting down the possibility for action and leading to dull, long, low action games. Sightstone not being bought too frequently in any single game's an important part of trying to keep that vision balance right.

The second thing we want to try and do is make it so supports don't feel forced to upgrade their Sightstone to the final tier before picking up any other items, given how much that surpresses chances to make item choices. At the same time, the upgrade should still decent for the slot. Decent slot efficiency, but uninspiring gold efficiency for the upgrade, might be where we end up as a result.

I'd very much like to hear the reasoning that led you guys to decide to opt for the 'changing SS stats' option rather than expanding on the trinket system while deleting SS and bought wards, or attempting to link a summoner's spell to SS the same way you guys did with smite and junglers. Sure i agree all options are equally viable, but I'd much rather the two last than the first option.

Preseason is THE time for screwy experimental changes that don't necessarily make it through, is it possible to at least test the other options before settling on one? Or would that be too much work?

exe3Sep 21, 20153 votes

You say that you don't want Sighstone or any potential upgrades to feel mandatory on supports yet Hunter's machete and its upgrades are very much mandatory on junglers so why do you feel differently between Sightstone and Machete?

GinoSoldierSep 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

You say that you don't want Sighstone or any potential upgrades to feel mandatory on supports yet Hunter's machete and its upgrades are very much mandatory on junglers so why do you feel differently between Sightstone and Machete?

Technically Supports have both the gold generation items AND Sightstone as mandatory to their builds, which leaves them with actually 3 gear pieces to go on with, not counting the boots (which are almost required to be mobi boots too, but that's something else.). I'll let the gold generation items pass though as they're overall diverse enough not to be a bother as far as feeling restricted goes.

SukishooSep 21, 20153 votes

I wouldn't say Mobi are required, it's just what a lot of people went with to get back to lanes faster... however a lot of the other boots offer better overall stats even for a support. If speed is needed then they should really be going with Swiftness.

XandervileSep 21, 20152 votes

Don't forget the roaming status that mobis gives you, it's great to surprise gank mid lane or back up a jungler in danger too

SukishooSep 21, 20152 votes

Till you get cc'd to death. I'd say that's why they are more of a situational thing.

Neekolâs CageSep 21, 20152 votes

If you get CC'd to death as a support, a) you were in a place you shouldn't have been or b) those are cooldowns spent on you that weren't spent on your carries so it's worth. Getting Mercury just to be CC'd to death 35% less and remove the roam potential, quick warding escapades, etc, is a very bad decision imo. Unless you want to cap CDR and you aren't getting 40% from the gazillion of support items with CDR so you need Ionian boots, anything other than mobis is pretty tier 2. Not trash, of course, but gives lots less value.

Professor WardSep 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say Mobi are required, it's just what a lot of people went with to get back to lanes faster... however a lot of the other boots offer better overall stats even for a support. If speed is needed then they should really be going with Swiftness.

i almost never run mobis as a support main, merc treads/tabi on tank and if i really want speed ill run deadman/alacrity for plenty of speed. Boots of swiftness are always better than mobis unless youre wanting to clear jungle fast, i just dont like the idea of losing all my speed once im poked. Plus the passive on swiftness is nice.

And most people that take mobis on blitz dont realize the swiftness passive applies to his self slow, making him faster especially when it counts.

Titanium70Sep 21, 20156 votes

Well, than you have 2 options:

Add Jgl-Like echantments, that´ll only work for Supps, but risking another month of lane-abuseres. xD
Make Sightsone(especially Upgraded Sightstone) a good Item and add something like "Team Unique Passive" that will prevent more than 2 or 1 sightstones per team or blocks the Ward-Passive in some way.

chooopiiSep 21, 20154 votes

Just link it too the mastery tree on a special root which just supports will skill ;)

MatTheWizzardSep 22, 20151 votes

So turning the slow from Exhaust into a root, with the additional Attack Speed debuff, Armor and MR shred? Or even without the debuffs?

A good idea, not very well thought out. It may give many champions an option to become supports who may be lacking CC.

But this could also massively imbalance the heavy CC supports who do not need more CC, e.g Leona, Thresh, Braum, Alistar, etc.

What if Junglers start to run 0/9/21 for the Move Speed and free CC on exhaust? The increase in map presence would be huge.

I understand your idea, and think it is very good. But from a balancing aspect it creates more problems than it fixes them.

Great idea though! summoner 31

HyaticeSep 21, 20153 votes

Inb4 Exhaust Upgrades as enchantments for Sightstone.

Inb4 Evelynn with Exhaust/Smite becomes pick/ban.

But for real upgrading exhaust with Sightstone could be interesting. The base exhaust spell would probably need to be changed to jusify/allow for it, but it's a neat idea.

OziSep 21, 20157 votes

Ruby Sightstone.

Builds from Crystalline Bracer
Gives 200 HP + 50% HP Regen
Exhaust Enchantment: Reduced Armor/MR from enemy is increased.

Emerald Sightstone.

Builds from Forbidden Idol
Gives 10% CDR + 50% Mana Regen
Exhaust Enchantment: Reduced damage dealt % from enemy is increased.

Topaz Sightstone.

Builds from Aether Wisp
Gives 30 AP + 5% Move Speed
Exhaust Enchantment: Reduced move speed % from enemy is increased.

cornycrunchSep 21, 20155 votes

Gems. Taric

Pandemic PunchSep 22, 20151 votes

Gems where!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

Celeste BenalSep 22, 20152 votes

An idea is forming......

Give Taric and Taric only the line of improved sightstones.

doubleguacSep 21, 20154 votes

It's a neat idea, but the specific "exhaust enchant" attached to each upgrade seems arbitrary. If I'm against a fed Zed, I might want the reduced damage dealt from Emerald. But if I'm playing Leona, I'd rather have the stats of Ruby. There's no correlation between the stats of the item and the exhaust upgrade.

Plus, I think summoner spell diversity is good. This would strongly incentivize players who want a sight stone to take exhaust, which isn't something that Riot should do IMO.

Worst Penguin NASep 21, 20151 votes

Look at the majority of higher elo supports... they run ignite and not exhaust. Such a change that is linked specifically to exhaust would cause even more pregame hate on people who choose ignite =)

windwolf777Sep 22, 20151 votes

Just curious, why summoner 3 and not summoner 7 ??

Shiny DittoSep 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There are a couple of things we want to be careful about with Sightstone. The first is avoiding making it an item that's appealing to too wide a range of positions. On one hand, too little vision's bad for the game, it stops you from making informed plays and instead just forces blind risk or extreme conservatism. On the other hand however too much vision's also a problem, shutting down the possibility for action and leading to dull, long, low action games. Sightstone not being bought too frequently in any single game's an important part of trying to keep that vision balance right.

The second thing we want to try and do is make it so supports don't feel forced to upgrade their Sightstone to the final tier before picking up any other items, given how much that surpresses chances to make item choices. At the same time, the upgrade should still decent for the slot. Decent slot efficiency, but uninspiring gold efficiency for the upgrade, might be where we end up as a result.

Remember, Jungle items had that problem as well until it was (mostly) solved by making those items limited to champions that have Smite.

A similar thing can happen with a support-themed Summoner Spell. I'm not sure what such a summoner spell would entail, but it's an interesting line of thinking I believe should be explored at least.

SpitfireSniperSep 22, 20151 votes

Target acquired.

FantasySniperSep 22, 20151 votes

OMG, you were listening!

FistOfSharkieshaSep 22, 20151 votes

But sightstone isn't really in danger of being OP right now. Upgraded stealth trinket + a pink ward for whenever you do dragon/baron is more than sufficient enough. It also leaves a permanent vision totem until it's removed by an enemy. There's even the raptor smite buff. I mean I just don't see a reason as to why you'd want to spend 800G on an item inferior to a 250g upgrade. I can rush Banner of Command or Twin Shadows quicker without shelling out 800G on an item that is simply a liability to a full build lategame.

I can see why you don't want an entire map to be visible but your argument is sort of redundant because trinkets exist.

intoxhippieSep 23, 20151 votes

Random idea me and a friend were throwing around. Make Sightstone a mat for alternative third tier support items. Give supports a choice, Would the slow active from Frostqueen be worth the loss of a slot in going just ruby sightstone, or would more vision (and possibly the added ability to have 1 more ward placed) be better in the game you're in. We didn't discuss exact stats or anything but I just thought it would be interesting to get your opinion.

NoobShotBGSep 21, 20151 votes

or a jungler tank, and even jungler tanks are not forced to buy this.

To be fair it's fairly mandatory on every jungler in competitive play regardless of if they're a tank or not. I can definitely understand why they'd be apprehensive of making it much stronger than it is now.

WingsofGulgazorSep 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To be fair it's fairly mandatory on every jungler in competitive play regardless of if they're a tank or not. I can definitely understand why they'd be apprehensive of making it much stronger than it is now.

to be honest maybe the best solution is instead of trying to buff sightstone for supports, try and make it more of a jungler item. Make it were sightstone can be upgraded with machete and some other item like cloth armor.

They could even make machete a requirement of sightstone or make machete upgrades all have some ward function to it. Then they Riot can make regular wards cheaper so green wards will cost between 40 and 60 G instead of 75 and this can allow supports to still ward but use there early game money elsewhere. Which since this is where supports are really impactful I think it's a fair compromise. Sightstone will probably have to give a reduced amount of wards, (they only hold 2 or 3 wards instead of 4 or something) but I think it can be a good trade.

As for how the machete items can be changed, I believe they don't even have to be changed to place wards like a sightstone to get more vision or help with map based objectives. They can make machete upgrades effect different jungle camps differently. So a machete with a sightstone might not have good direct stats but when you smite different jungle camps they will give different or stronger or varied jungle buffs depending on what type of machete type and enchantment you have. So I sightstone machete might make killing scuttle crab more rewarding.

Another way that sightstone can be changed is at level 16 or 18 sightstone can be fused with the trinket for differnt effects so that supports can go as they are now and then have a better trinket slot later in the game. Riot can even make sightstone somewhat like ROD where you have to have sightstone for a certain period of time and be a certain level before then they can be fused and trinket can then give some different effects or stats or as mentioned just simple be fused into one item in the trinket slot. This will mean that solo lanes won't be pushed to buy the sightstone for the upgraded trinket because who will dump all there money in an item that won't give them effective stats until later in the game. if someone is going to dump 800 gold in something most people would rather dump it into a tear and get a better stronger item out of it. The time limit and level limit will prevent solo laners from abusing the item. The side is that supports can go about as they usually do. The time limit and level limit comes late enough that they can buy mobi boots or some other items before sightstone and still get the stats as long as they buy the item within the first 12 or 15 minutes of the game and then sightstone will give supports a bit of a boost in power and utility when it's finally upgraded and it the item fuses with trinket it will also even free an item slot. This can open the way for different sightstone's that cost around the same but upgrade into different items.

The great thing is that with some tweaks to sightstones junglers and supports can get the item and it won't give to much vision and be beneficial to both roles. This can give junglers more utility power and possibly help with map based plays at the cost of some direct stats which junglers are pretty strong right now so that can be afforded especially since supports in the current meta tend to roam around the map and help with ganks as well.

Another option would be to heavily buff the summoner teleport but make it where if you have the summoner teleport you cannot buy machete upgrades (to keep junglers from going tp smite) and then you can make some sightstone paths that give plenty of stats and have the same restriction if you have TP and smite (and if you don't want junglers using sightstone make smite prevent the ability of buying sightstone) This can allow for supports to build sightstone without being abused the only thing that would be needed would probably be something to help marksmen while also keeping marksmen from building sightstone from these buffs and this could range from buffing heal and barrier to direct base stat upgrades to buffing ad items or creating a really efficient Dorans item that appeals to marksmen but also restricts people who buy the dorans item from buying sightstone.

To be honest I don't think this applies to only sightstone but I think many items should give different stats and scaling to different champions and allow or restrict the further purchase of different items. For instance if you can't buy item X unless you have item Y and Z and if you have item X Y or Z you can't but item A or B and then different champions will have different restrictions on what items they can buy and different items that can be used together. Then buffing or nerfing a champion will be as simple as changing the numbers or scaling a certain champion gets with an item. Even if not for all champions you can make several champions that might even have different spell abilities and different power spikes depending on what items they buy or what order they level there spell abilities.

jjookkeerrSep 21, 20156 votes

supports diversity is going to be looked at on preseason? right now i feel like tanky supports are dominating the bot lane and jana suffered nerfs because of it. is a bit frustrating that supports with ap scaling cant build ap and are forced to build tank

BeatzBoyFTWSep 21, 20151 votes

Well shit.....

http://i.memeful.com/memes/ROJWDqM.jpg

ADepressedLeonaSep 21, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Well shit.....

http://i.memeful.com/memes/ROJWDqM.jpg

When did he go away exactly?

RozzetaSep 21, 20151 votes

Meddler, for the love of God, please DO NOT make it appealing to jungler or the other solo laners. That has been the death sentence of all good support items to date.

DaevaSep 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's fairly likely there'll be some Sightstone changes in the preseason. Amongst other things we're looking at adding some different upgrade options instead of just Sightstone -> Ruby Sightstone.

Yaaaay, finally.

SpookyJugularSep 22, 20151 votes

Maybe u could combine it with the normal support items because i dont see anyone getting them for the relic shield, coin or spellthiefs gold gain. The lower cost would help supports to have a bigger role in the game considering they would have the possibility to use the actives to survive ganks or lead into them or have a little extra hp and due to the lackluster base stats the give it could work.

Bodkins OddsSep 22, 20151 votes

That sounds cool, but I'd much rather you start by giving Sightstone the same recharging mechanic as the upgraded yellow trinket.

PanterLilySep 22, 20151 votes

I would really like one that helps me clear minions when alone in base under the nexus turrets.... Or at least taunt on frighten them...

Me there as a support alone... waste of time... feel so week.

T.T

chriseritSep 22, 20151 votes

adding some different upgrade

In the way of having different stats or in the way of having different type of wards? For example I feel like that sometimes I would prefer to have a "red trinket sightstone" and other times a sightstone (yellow trinket). Giving different choice would be good.

Anyway probably is one of the worst idea ever but what if you can build sightstone ONLY if you have bought Ancient coin, relic shield or spellthief's edge?

This way support are OK with sightstone but laners have to buy 2 slot inefficient item to have wards...and this is a huge problem for them. For layers will be enormously better to wait and buy ward upgrade once level 9 while support will have what they deserve

SilvenSep 22, 20151 votes

I'm rooting for stuff like "Emerald Sightstone" and "Sapphire Sightstone". I like things that match and the gem thing sounds fancy. Plus, reworked Taric will like.

GinoSoldierSep 21, 20153 votes

I also hope that SS AND bought wards are removed during preseason.

Trinkets opened up a new world that is yet unexplored in many ways, and it would be very simple to switch the paid for wards that are incalculable in terms of gold efficiency, to trinkets that are completely separated from gold, thus bringing balance.

I am very slightly worried about the fact that Sightstone basically acts as a build-delayer for mage-supports who, when and if they build AP directly, tend to stomp ADCs into nothingness, making the entire lane a supp vs supp duel with ADCs relevant/useful in the bot lane. Supp mages that are doing well can delay an ADC's farming until they're irrelevant to the game even when left alone for a good while.

LostFr0stSep 21, 20153 votes

I would really like it if at level 9 Sightstone could recharge like the totem does. It's annoying to have to base every time I need a refresh when a key fight is about to happen.

I really want an upgraded scanner, and in most games I get one, but there are other times where I just see the warding totem as the better/cheaper option and just buy pinks to scan.

Tldr; The recharge is legit one of the greatest annoyances with the Sightstone as an item slot.

-LostFr0st

darkdillSep 21, 20152 votes

Very yes. I HATE requiring to return to base as a support just for that damn SS recharge. It'd be so much better if at level 9 and up, it automatically recharged wards in the field like a item 3361 .

LostFr0stSep 21, 20152 votes

It's troll right? The role with the least need for item backing is forced to base for a reason other than health/mana.

BecantSep 22, 20152 votes

They could make it the 21 on utility, giving 3-4 charges on trinkets. Not sure how red trinket would work then. (Oracles? q.q)

Silver FluffenbuSep 22, 20151 votes

red trinket would have a reduced timer.

ZynariSep 21, 20151 votes

I wish that supports would be able to put more than 3 wards at a time when they have Sightstone :/ sometimes it's quite hard to help the team gain enough vision when the support is the only one buying wards - although I understand that this would lead to this "too much vision" problem.

GinoSoldierSep 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I wish that supports would be able to put more than 3 wards at a time when they have Sightstone :/ sometimes it's quite hard to help the team gain enough vision when the support is the only one buying wards - although I understand that this would lead to this "too much vision" problem.

The issue here is that with the addition of Trinkets, warding became the team's job, not just the support. Honestly at this point, if your entire team hasn't upgraded their trinkets at lvl 12 at most, you're pretty much free to yell at them for not doing so. Warding should never have been a single person's job, and a support's best place is at the very center of it's team, where he can put all his skills to use. Not risking getting caught out warding dragon because he's the only one who can.

Sightstone needs to be deleted for this game to reach vision balance; take vision out of the gold equation, and expand it into a system of it's own.

GatorTime24Sep 21, 20151 votes

they need to make a trap ward. where if someone walks over the ward it acts like nidalee's trap and shows the player for a certain amount of time

ninjaIRL Sep 22, 20151 votes

Ruby Sightstone UNIQUE Passive: (The strikethrough words/numbers/durations are original tier 3 trinket features.)

Oracle's Lens Active: Summons a drone at the target location for ~~six~~ eight seconds (600 range). The drone reveals and disables all invisible traps and wards within an 600-unit radius. (75 second cooldown). Additionally, your champion gains true sight for 10 seconds and increased true sight range. (50 range)
Farsight Orb Active: Reveals an area up to 4000 units away for 23 seconds (9080 second cooldown). Enemy champions hit will be revealed for 5 seconds. This does not affect stealth champions. Also places a visible ward in the area that lasts 60 seconds. This ward warns (exclamation mark) when invisible units are near this ward (600 range [does not reveal invisible units]).
Greater Stealth Totem Places a Stealth Ward that lasts 180 seconds (60 second cooldown). Store a charge every 60 seconds, up to 23 total. Increase ward limit from 3 to 5.
Greater Vision Totem Active: Places a Vision Ward that has infinite duration. (120 second cooldown). Limit 1 Vision Ward on the map per player. Passive: This vision ward from this player will consume Sight Wards, from the same player, placed on the Vision Ward increasing its maximum health bars by one and its vision range by 15 per Sight Ward sacrificed for 6 minutes. Any damage the vision ward takes after the effect ends is still applied i.e. A six health max Vision ward that has been hit 5 times by will disappear as soon as the 6 minutes subsequent sacrifices refresh the duration of the effect.

Basically it makes other trinkets more attractive to the support player because the other trinkets can offer stronger true vision coverage. Depending on the situation.

DellingSep 23, 20151 votes

The problem with tying SS to a summoner spell is there is NO uniquely support summoner spell. Designing the jungle experience around the expectation that the Jungler will take Smite and then loading Smite up with a huge amount of utility that makes it rival other summoner spells works because you can then be reasonably sure that the Jungler will take Smite, just as you could have been reasonably sure that the Jungler will take Smite beforehand. Ie- it hasn't changed the presumption that the Jungler has Smite.

Most supports take either Heal + Flash or Exhaust+Flash but some do take Ignite+Flash. On that last one, why? and this is really important: well, because some ADCs take Heal+Flash in order to have safer laning.

Well, we can't tie SS to Flash because then anyone could/would take it (depending on the extent of the buffs). Can't tie it to Heal without potentially facing cases where the ADC takes it. Our best bet therefore is Exhaust, but as noted, there's no guarantee that supports will take Exhaust so it would just be more shoehorning supports into their box.

One option would be to create a support summoner spell but this has two problems 1) the CV/Exhaust-problem: we could tie SS to CV/Exhaust but we'd just be forcing supports to take CV... something they haven't done in ages... or mandating that they take Exhaust further reducing supports available options and 2) any sufficiently high utility Summoner Spell for supports would be tempting to other roles (just look at Heal and ADCs).

I think the "tied to summoner spell" route is fundamentally the wrong direction to take for supports.

It's arguable that Sightstone should just be removed from the game, as an outdated relic from the time when it was the support alone's duty to ward, and the vision trinkets should just be buffed instead.

The only healthy outcome I could see for giving Sightstone more upgrade paths would be something like letting Sightstone build from either Ruby or Tome and its final form having a meaningful passive (possibly as an enchantment). But the problem there is that it's difficult to make "lump of AP" work as well as "lump of HP" because a couple hundred HP go a lot further than 20-40 AP (especially with the utility scaling on supports)... (Lump of HP with an AP zit on the side... well...)

Oh, and for the love of God, Don't. Put. CDR. On. It.