Riot are we losing 20 ap Damage across all Ap items again?

taleofsonata·Feb 6, 2018·46 votes·2,672 views

For better itemization, we lose 20 AP items all over ap items. Please consider not doing that :/. Just leave those 20 ap items, not all ap champions have high ap Scaling.

90 Comments

AzadetheFeb 7, 201839 votes

They're doing that at the same time as making another damage increasing buff in item 3151 , and changing the per second ticks to MAX HEALTH.

They're doing that while making item 3165 ALWAYS proc Grievous wounds.

I think losing AP is kind of expected with such powerful changes.

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

They're doing that at the same time as making another damage increasing buff in , and changing the per second ticks to MAX HEALTH.

They're doing that while making ALWAYS proc Grievous wounds.

I think losing AP is kind of expected with such powerful changes.

Liandries requires a form of CC.

Always proc'ing grievous wounds means nothing if the enemy does not build regen, healing, and etc.

AzadetheFeb 7, 201817 votes

The new buff on Liandra's does not require cc. it requires being in combat vs someone and using skills. up to 10% boost to all magic damage to the target (can be stacked with item 3001 )

The second part doesn't need CC either. Only if you want it DOUBLED. 2% Max HP is much better than 2% Current.

Regen/sustain champs are almost the entire meta right now. All those top "fighters" are actually sustain champs and have 51%+ win rates and the games revolve around them. Most carrying adcs also build some life steal like Kalista Jinx

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The new buff on Liandra's does not require cc. it requires being in combat vs someone and using skills. up to 10% boost to all magic damage to the target (can be stacked with )

The second part doesn't need CC either. Only if you want it DOUBLED. 2% Max HP is much better than 2% Current.

Regen/sustain champs are almost the entire meta right now. All those top "fighters" are actually sustain champs and have 51%+ win rates and the games revolve around them. Most carrying adcs also build some life steal like

I am not saying they are useless items. I am just saying they still have the potential of being situational, no matter how low. Also, people will still prefer Liandries on cc champions. Otherwise, they will feel like they are wasting the passive, therefore may find a potentially better item for that particular champion.

AzadetheFeb 7, 20189 votes

Situational being :

Ahri Amumu Anivia Azir Cassiopeia DrMundo Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Fizz Heimerdinger Karma KogMaw Lux Morgana Nidalee Ornn Rammus Ryze Rumble Shyvana Singed Swain Teemo Velkoz Vladimir Viktor Zyra Ziggs

All of which have prominent ways to abuse it through either on board Damage over time, or through fast succession skill casts, or both.

There's scarce few mages who can't use it.

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There's scarce few mages who can't use it.

You obviously refuse to read.

{quoted}

I am just saying they still have the potential of being situational, no matter how low.

Ahri InariFeb 7, 20188 votes

Lyandry was so strong it was built even without cc. With the pbe change I don't think we'll see it on Burst mage anymore but sure look good on sustained ap damage even without cc, do not forget the passive work well with Dots and they won't alway build a early rilay.

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-07T03:22:56.514+0000)

Lyandry was so strong it was built even without cc.

Really? Tell me champions without cc it was built on.

Down votes prove nothing. Let your words do the talking.

Ahri InariFeb 7, 20185 votes

Literraly all mage. Just because people had so low base MR since pre-season, it make the magic pen very valuable. I don't need proof, just play more than 50 games a season in other elo than bronze and you'll see it. Azadethe already named many mage building it.

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-07T16:46:13.367+0000)

Literraly all mage. Just because people had so low base MR since pre-season, it make the magic pen very valuable. I don't need proof, just play more than 50 games a season in other elo than bronze and you'll see it. Azadethe already named many mage building it.

I said without cc.

You listed none.

Ahri InariFeb 7, 20182 votes

Well, first, cc is a core to AP and there is almost none without cc http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina/Middle http://champion.gg/champion/Vladimir/Middle Their most popular build include lyandry

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Inari,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-07T21:30:35.569+0000)

Well, first, cc is a core to AP and there is almost none without cc http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina/Middle http://champion.gg/champion/Vladimir/Middle Their most popular build include lyandry

Tell that to Nidalee. She builds cc but haven't seen Liandries on her, for obvious reasons.

Building cc does not mean they 'have' cc in their kit.

Ahri InariFeb 7, 20183 votes

Rolf, because I just named 2 example does not mean there are only 2 nor I never stated building cc is "have" cc in their kit. If you play that kind of game in a debate I'll just leave.

Ahri InariFeb 7, 20181 votes

I know you didn't said that. I was contradicting the part you say Liandry require a form oc cc and is situational. I'm saying liandry is in such a good spot that everyone build it no matter the completion of its requirement (cc, dots...)

Sp33d Zer0Feb 7, 20181 votes

Akali Azir Diana Katarina Mordekaiser Nidalee Teemo all have cc that is basically a nonfactor for liandry if they have any at all. I'll let you make an argument for teemo but he still wants the pen more than the improved burn from mushrooms

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-07T21:16:45.041+0000)

all have cc that is basically a nonfactor for liandry if they have any at all. I'll let you make an argument for teemo but he still wants the pen more than the improved burn from mushrooms

Akali has CC. Teemo has CC. Mordekaiser has CC. (Stands corrected. I build Rylias on him) Azir builds CC. Katarina builds CC for her ult. Nidalee does not build Liandries according to op.gg

You listed Diana . Good job. Now, explain how it benefits her.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 7, 20181 votes

Flat magic pen outs a crucial stat for assassins. Health helps assassins survive the dive. AP helps you kill your target.

Also saying you "build cc" so it doesn't count is silly. It's like me saying blitzcrank is a shield support because he builds pocket

rtbf221651412Feb 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-07T23:50:17.604+0000)

Flat magic pen outs a crucial stat for assassins. Health helps assassins survive the dive. AP helps you kill your target.

Also saying you "build cc" so it doesn't count is silly. It's like me saying blitzcrank is a shield support because he builds pocket

We were specifically considering champions with built in CC.
You actually answered the question.

Also, Nidalee still doesn't build Liandries.

What Is SmiteFeb 8, 20181 votes

To be fair

Azir has a knockback (Hard CC) on his R and slow (Soft CC) on Q Teemo has a blind (Soft CC) on Q and slow (Soft CC) on R Akali has a slow (Soft CC) on her W Mordekaiser Katarina Nidalee don't have CC in their kits, unless you consider applying debuffs a type of CC

What Is SmiteFeb 8, 20181 votes

sorry pick and choose syndrome, it's a plague we have not found he cure for yet

What Is SmiteFeb 7, 20182 votes

You forgot Mordekaiser the largest abuser of Liandries despite having 0 CC in his kit (He just really likes the %hp burn damage when combo'd with his ult %max hp magic damage)

rtbf221651412Feb 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ycbZ4IAE,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-07T11:17:16.011+0000)

You forgot the largest abuser of Liandries despite having 0 CC in his kit (He just really likes the %hp burn damage when combo'd with his ult %max hp magic damage)

He has CC. Try again.

Slack KingFeb 7, 20184 votes

{quoted}

He has CC. Try again.

Morde does not have CC.

AzadetheFeb 8, 20181 votes

Except anyone with Magic resist counters that, and also..... they already nerfed it because of this. It's down to 1.5% now, and if you had any resist at all, Morde cannot kill you with his ult.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 8, 20181 votes

But what do you mean by abuse? Maybe its just the way its inteded, so mages have a chance vs tanks, instead of getting 1v1 by one.

What Is SmiteFeb 8, 20181 votes

Morde has almost always been in a good spot vs tanks, his ult shredded their HP bar's because of the %max HP damage and just picking-up void staff is enough to nullify a good chunk of their MR since he mainly builds double Flat Mpen into Void if they stack MR

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

Morello is very niche item now. so only build it if really neccesary. Just like item 3033

AzadetheFeb 7, 20183 votes

Imo they aren't niche and neither should you. All the highest win rate and most annoying champs and highest pick rate kits across elos have substantial self heals, regeneration, or adcs who heal. The AP is still decent, and it has magic penetration.

Ahri Wins trades because of heals. Akali Scales extremely fast more because of heals than her assassination kit. When you heal 1/3 of your HP off one item, it's hard to put you down. Alistar Lane is almost impossible to have an easy time at because of how much he heals bot lane. Darius Is dangerous specifically when he self heals. Otherwise he's lucky to get 1 kill off. DrMundo Carries when regen is high. Ekko Subtle, but a lot of his power lies in ulting when low HP. You can cut that recovery by 40%. Fiora Survives long engagements because of self heals. Gangplank Missing health Heal on W. Garen Highest regen in the game, gets Second wind for self heals, and often gets Spirit Visage for regen enhancement. Gragas Self heals Illaoi Her Essential kit revolves around healing per tentacle + item 3812 Irelia Self heals on passive and on ult. Janna Tier 2 Healing support Jinx Revolves around the ability to repeatedly proc Fleet Footwork while Excited! Usually also builds 1 Life Steal item. Kalista Ditto Karma Self heal that's huge and spammable Katarina Self heals off item 3146 Kayn Self heals on Rhaast. Why his kit works Maokai HUGE self heals when auto attacking. MasterYi Meditate and heal items. Morgana 20% Damage heals. Nami Entire kit is around healing. Nasus Entire survival is around life steal. Nidalee Can only survive by heals Nocturne Heals on 4th hits, often builds life steal Olaf Activated free Life steal, often also builds more; That's how he wins trades. Rakan Heal Q Sona Heal bot. Soraka Heal bot. Swain Will still be a self healing bot. TahmKench Heals when he doesn't use the Barrier. Taric Heals. Tristana Fleet Footwork Trundle Massive regen. Part of why he exists. Tryndamere Always builds Life steal,Q heals. Twitch Often builds life steal. Udyr Self sustain, often builds Life steal. Vayne Fleet Footwork. Vladimir Heals.... Volibear Heals. Warwick Massive self heals which are why he exists. XinZhao On hit heals, also usually builds life steal. Yorick Massive on hit heals Yasuo Best builds have a Bloodthirster Zac Healing passive Zilean Ult heal can be grievous wounded.

That's about half our champ list which Grievous wounds is meta for. Most teams have at least 2-3 of them.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

I dont think any mages are gonna build it unless the heals are soraka or vladimir-tier strong. Just much better options now. Also this will hopefully force more adc to build it. They always seem to forget it.

AzadetheFeb 7, 20181 votes

It takes more than one grievous wounds to reliably take down heal teams, and it's usually not an adc who does it best. If they can get a target low, it's a mage, because of the aoes.

The only exception is Miss Fortune.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

Pretty sure any hypercarry with mortal reminder and a few items is gonna out-dps any heals. Also item 3085 is really good since you spread your ebola to all the enemies.

AzadetheFeb 8, 20181 votes

Doesn't happen in practice, and most adcs are prone to the champs who heal. Most adcs do not itemize item 3085 with the exception of Jinx because On hit bonuses have been removed from the secondary shots (Mortal isn't a On Hit, but the other attributes that make Runaan's appealing are).

Most hyper carries go item 3087 item 3094 and skip Runaan's because they need 3 slots for AD items, or the crit damage is worthless.

Many do have aoe abilites, but most of those are 1 shot long cooldowns compared to a mage spammer.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 8, 20181 votes

Took this from the runaans page on the wiki:

UNIQUE – WIND'S FURY: When Basic attacking, bolts are fired at up to 2 enemies near the target, each dealing 40% AD physical damage. Bolts can critically strike and apply on-hit effects.

Twitch KogMaw Jinx Xayah Kalista Kindred Ashe

all build this item.

VexingRavenFeb 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They're doing that at the same time as making another damage increasing buff in , and changing the per second ticks to MAX HEALTH.

They're doing that while making ALWAYS proc Grievous wounds.

I think losing AP is kind of expected with such powerful changes.

Then maybe they should not make such awful changes and just keep the AP the same? Adding extraneous damage to items has never once solved anything. See: Duskblade.

AzadetheFeb 8, 20181 votes

Tbh we kind of need it. With Second Wind, certain Fighters have become purely 100% immune to DoT champs. Tenacity is insanely high atm, and Second Wind heals for more than the Dot's typically do.

Way too much sustain in the game on self reliant kits.

YokoNomiFeb 6, 201811 votes

Ironically, stacking as much AP as I can hasn't been the focus the past season, since items now days are now heavily utility dependent. Though I think this greatly depends on the champion.

NyarlathοtepFeb 7, 201810 votes

Dont bother. Riot is very good at screwing up ap itemization. Also im still waiting for someone to say, but muh buff amplify on deathcap.

FlameHalbrdOkidoFeb 7, 20188 votes

how about they nerf AD across the board too

SweedishGunnerFeb 7, 20188 votes

Taking away AP and throwing in broken passives and more CDR.

What a stupid idea, why? Why does everything need CDR and a strong passive? Why can't we have high AP values with weaker passives? Some champions value raw AP over passives and CDR.

Options are just being removed again and builds are being even more homogenised.

DeadUnbornFeb 7, 20188 votes

Everyone getting on the hate bandwagon without even checking the number. We have a new 100 AP item that can be stacked with new tear of the goddess items that give an inane amount more mana =more AP. You combine that with liandriss having it's AP increased and doing max health damage and you are dealing more damage overall.

Find the facts before you complain people....

xelakerFeb 7, 20183 votes

I just saw that it wasn't for adcs and assumed it was ABSOLUTE AND UTTER GARBAGE because adcs get everything and can 1v9 at level 2 with no items.

DisulfiramFeb 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Find the facts before you complain people....

You dare write this on the Gameplay boards??? #Burn the heretic!!!

[sg-shisa]

Paladin 0f LifeFeb 7, 20184 votes

If twin shadows is 80 AP for 2400 gold say goodbye to all the other ones

FridgesArePpl2Feb 7, 20183 votes

It doesn't provide any mana though

RocketRelmFeb 7, 20184 votes

I think we're officially at the point where AD = AP in item availability. Both AP and AD items will largely cap out at 80 now.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

not really, you can probably hit around 800-1000+ ap depending on who you play and what you build

RocketRelmFeb 7, 20183 votes

Let's nail some numbers down to see what AP levels a champion can hit. Ignoring Veigar and Cassopeia, as they're special cases.

6 item build: Sorc Boots, Void Staff (70), Seraphs Embrace (50), RoA (100), Deathcap (120), Spellbound Orb (100). Total: 440

1800 Max Mana from Items, 1400 from Champion (above average), 3.2k total, which is 96 AP from the seraphs passive. (536)

536 x1.4 = 750 AP Total.

The absolute maximum AP you can build comes short of 800, you need domination/sorcery plus some other AP from runes just to top out over 800 AP. Technically you could eke out a little more by skimping on Void Staff, but I've already compromised build efficiency by putting 2 mana items and Spellbound Orb to squeeze the numbers to get to where 800 AP is possible.

What is much worse is the fact that 44.5% (334) of this AP is from Deathcap, meaning that for the vast majority of the game you're going to be sitting at sub-400 AP.

So no, 800 AP is incredibly hard and impractical, and you can forget about 900 AP, let alone 1000.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

You are forgetting alot of ap from runes. It gives what 20 ap, Taking gathering storm 48-120 ap. Transcendence gives ap for cdr. Celerity for move speed, and absolute focos gives up to 40. Infernal dragon up to 24 %. Baron 40. Elixir of sorcery 40. They are situational but some of them are gonna apply every game.

RocketRelmFeb 7, 20181 votes

I didn't forget about the AP from runes, I mentioned that you can situationally get over 800 with those. I'm not sure I would say that all of those would apply every game, also. Storm and Elixir are super late game in a meta where games are typically decided by 15 minutes, Baron is windowed and not a guarantee, build doesn't get enough CDR for Transcendence to buff AP, Celerity is Champ Dependent and rarely provides even 20 AP. Focus is. the only one I'd say is consistent.

Ignoring Infernal Dragons a little because they're random, and a lot because they're a static % buff to AD and AP, and the point is to compare availability/efficiency of AP versus AD.

But yes, you can technically hit 1000 AP if the planets align and you're hyper late game. You might not even need to build grossly inefficiently like my build above. In the other 98% of games, the Mage will barely break 700 AP (assuming efficient builds).

The bigger problem overall is that so much of AP's efficiency is wrapped up in Deathcap, and yet Deathcap can't be first-item rushed, it's more like a 3rd item at earliest (and has an incredibly clumsy build path). So you're spending the first 20+ minutes of the game with incredibly low AP.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 7, 20181 votes

Dunno if you checked the pbe, but Deathcap has been lowered to 3600 g and build from 2 x NLR. Also dont forgot that grievious wounds now apply at 100% hp and liandrys does % max hp dmg. I am pretty sure dmg overall has been increased for mages after these changes.

But i agree with you, about Deathcap spiking too hard. Would be better if they lowered its ap (and passive) and just distributed the ap more evenly around items, so mages have a more linear power curve.