Yasuo Windwall Block Poppy Ultimate doesn't make SENSE!

taleofsonata·Dec 4, 2015·306 votes·44,926 views

Thats an underground skill moving towards him and it can be windwall WTF! Ah ok I get it because you can windwall earthquake nowadays too. Riot Logic!

468 Comments

insaiyanbaccaDec 4, 201595 votes

honestly poppy ult should be unstoppable

Blue Moon WolfDec 5, 201520 votes

I approve, we need more unstoppable forces. I think right now Malphite is the only unstoppable ability that can go through walls. Edit: also Nocturne Hecarim

TDubHDec 5, 20159 votes

Tha Choppa can also go through walls and is unstoppable (hecarim)

ScatterPoliceDec 5, 201520 votes

Hecas ult gets stopped by windwall. Heca himself will go through but not the particals (other horsemen) or the fear.

bvcderrttyyhjjjkDec 5, 201514 votes

Oh wow I didn't know. That's stupid.

RalanrDec 4, 201563 votes

Technically it can also stop Braum ult, which is an earth fissure. Thinking logically, Yasuo windwall shouldn't even block bullets. But if we are using real world logic, then DrMundo might have died from a heart attack already.

spavinedDec 5, 201536 votes

dont forget vel koz void shift.... cant even... i just cant even

ModWulf HelhammerDec 5, 20155 votes

I think it blocks the animation, but the damage still goes through. Could be wrong and it's the other way around though

WheatloafDec 5, 201512 votes

Nah, it block his Q, W, and E.

Billy VoHagenDec 5, 20153 votes

Really? I've only encountered it completely blocking Q, W and E animations are blocked but damage goes through. And Q split when it hit wall. Although this was a while ago, so it may have changed.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 5, 20154 votes

That's what I thought. Even if it does block his Q and W, it shouldn't block his E

Lost In TimeDec 5, 20158 votes

His E is a projectile. Look at the animation when you play him.

He sends a small spiral of energy at target location.

11 Herb N SpicesDec 5, 201517 votes

Fun fact: Braum Shield doesnt block Zyras Snare, but Yasuo Wall does.

RalanrDec 5, 201515 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/PWZ8pr1xZW55m/giphy.gif

...what?

SulghunterDec 5, 201523 votes

That's because Braum's shield let's him to tank, not block, any damage that was meant for his allies, even when the damage was targeting the allies specifically and not Braum. That also includes CC.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 5, 20155 votes

I thought the first shield hit broke every skillshot, then everything that hits the shield afterwards lets him tank it.

SulghunterDec 5, 20156 votes

Even in the first shot that hit the shield, the damage is negated, but not the cc effects.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 5, 201514 votes

Huh. That's... pretty crap. I don't get why a melee assassin gets a better projectile blocker than a champion built around his shield.

CherysseDec 5, 201548 votes

Windwall shouldn't stop:

Braum R Velkoz W Poppy R

But it does.... why? Rito's logic

FacerollKatarinaDec 5, 20155 votes

Braum's ult is a projectile

taleofsonataDec 5, 201531 votes

#Glacial Fissure

ModAcademy KaynDec 5, 201511 votes

In all its technical terms, its a Projectile that is animated, ANIMATED, to look like a Fissure while leaving behind a Zone. A majority of things are coded like Projectiles like how a lot of things are coded like Minions.

kaltenashesDec 5, 201510 votes

Nami R

SpecterVonBarenDec 5, 201516 votes

I cry everytime a Yasuo blocks my Nami ult.

RiotMeddlerDec 5, 201548 votes

When it comes to how things interact we believe it's best to go for a clear, consistent set of rules where possible, so that you can predict ahead of time how two abilities will behave together. In the case of Windwall, Braum E and any other missile stopping effects we might someday do, that meant we needed to develop a set of rules on what they would and wouldn't stop, with the goal of keeping those rules as clear cut as possible. What we ended up with is basically:

Missile blocking effects will stop all projectiles unless those projectiles go so high they vanish off the top of the screen.
Projectiles are defined as abilities or attacks that move between locations with a travel time
Units are not projectiles. For things that are around the border between a unit and a projectile (Orianna's Ball, Maokai's Saplings etc) a judgement call's needed, with whether or not the thing has some agency of its own being one of the key tests used to assess whether to treat the thing as a projectile or not.

That does mean that some things that thematically don't feel like they should be stopped by a wall of wind (Nami ult, Braum ult etc) do still get blocked. That can feel a bit weird thematically, we believe that's a worthwhile cost for the gameplay clarity it offers though. Nautilus' ult is at present an exception to the above, being unaffected by Windwall/Braum E, and that's something we'll change so that it functions like other projectiles.

The Sword SaintDec 5, 201579 votes

Do you think there's clarity value in allowing things that go 'under the screen' to bypass projectile walls in the same manner that things that go 'over the screen' bypass them?

It makes sense when it's only Naut being weird to just fudge that into being in line, but if there's going to be a design space for underground projectiles going forward, it would probably be good to start differentiating now.

If we're talking player expectations, I for one would find it to be more jarring if underground spells were to be blocked by a wall of wind that was clearly placed on top of the ground.

To address this specific case more, in practice poppy's ult feels like a melee skillshot. My feedback and muscle memory from playing vi and using her charge fist tells me that I just smacked an enemy with the hammer directly and sent them flying. The visuals don't match up with how it feels, and this dissonance would be even worse if my melee-feeling attack was blocked by windwall.

RiotMeddlerDec 5, 201529 votes

If it were an effect that went under the screen to the extent you couldn't track where it was (in the same way that a couple of missiles go high enough you can't see them at all sometimes) then that would definitely seem like a good fit. Wouldn't want to create a new category of spells that pierces missile blocking effects purely on thematic grounds though, if we were to do that would want to do so because of the gameplay effect it had, with the visuals then being a clear way of communicating gameplay difference.

Brohan46Dec 5, 201581 votes

I just don't understand why everyone at Riot refuses to admit that the ability is totally broken. When you find yourself at a crossroad of whether or not to rewrite the code on multiple other champions abilities based off of the function of one champion's ability you have an issue. Nobody is complaining about Braum's shield, this is totally focused around Yasuo.

There are constant attempts to justify this ability in red posts but at this point you're just saying "we dont want to code ground effects as their own class of projectiles just because" without providing any reason why. The fact that a fissure in the ground is considered a projectile makes no sense at all, yet you claim that it should stay that way "for clarity." These posts are a constant contradiction to each other.

Sire HippingtonDec 5, 201511 votes

Nobody is complaining about Braum's shield, this is totally focused around Yasuo.

So it would make sense that Braums shield blocks underground missles despite clearly beeing on the ground? It would make sense for him to block missles that get lobbed above his shield like nami's Q? Complaining about yasuos windwall for 'thematic reasons' and 'clearity' but saying Braum is fine is pretty hypocritical.

People want to see nerfs to windwall because they don't like playing vs yasuo in general, and that's ok, but claiming it's for thematic reasons of clearity is just false pretences unless they complain about Braum's E aswell. _ Also, annies firespells dealing damage to brand? I call thematic bullshit, fix please! An underground missle hitting a flying champ like anivia or corli? I call thematic bullshit!_ Honestly, **if you wrap gameplay around thematics, where do you draw the line? **

ShaiyoDec 5, 201541 votes

But Braum's shield and Yasuo's Windwall have VERY big differences that make Braum balanced and Yasuo broken.

Braum's shield destroys the first projectile that hits it, and then reduces the damage for every hit after that. It does not, i repeat** NOT**, block any on-hit effects. It only blocks from one side and redirects all damage after the first destroyed projectile to Braum.

Yasuo's Windwall destroys nearly every projectile that hits it for ENTIRE DURATION of the ability. It negates any of the subsequent on-hit effects because it let's nothing through. It also blocks from both sides and blocks_ ground-based effects_, completely in most cases, that Braum's shield only negates the damage (the first hit) to.

These two abilities are not the same. Yasuo's is considerably more powerful than Braum's.

ModAttysu The PoroDec 4, 201543 votes

Please fix this Rito. If this gets fixed and Poppy can ult through windwall we'd have a really good counter to Yasuo for once in our lives!

ComannderShepardDec 5, 201518 votes

{quoted}

Please fix this Rito. If this gets fixed and Poppy can ult through windwall we'd have a really good counter to Yasuo for once in our lives!

Malzahar

RiotRiotRepertoirDec 6, 201530 votes

Tormented Soil damaging floating enemies doesn't make sense either, but it seems to be consistent with people's expectations of the spell as far as dealing and receiving damage is concerned.

RetillinDec 6, 201512 votes

Isn't there/shouldn't there be a difference between Ults blocked vs non Ults blocked? Poppy's Ult FEELS like it is coming out of the ground. This seems to go AGAINST the theme of "clarity" Riot has been striving for.

RiotRiotRepertoirDec 6, 201519 votes

When thinking about this from an in-game thematics perspective, it makes less sense that Poppy's ult would be blocked by Wind Wall, I agree. However, taking a purely thematic approach to things would pretty quickly lead us to making exceptions to things or accepting really odd gameplay, as per the Tormented Soil example above.

Specifically to your question regarding ults vs non ults and their relationship to defensive abilities, that's not usually a distinction we make, though that isn't to say we couldn't. However, to me that begs questions like "Should Sivir's Spellshield block Annie's Tibbers or Veigar's Primordial Burst?"

Yasuo's W tends to follow a simple rule of "if there is a hostile non-unit object flying through the wall, it is destroyed." As a player, I think some of the best elements of Wind Wall are that I can pretty predictably know how it's going to act with spells, though I do understand the thematic disconnect.

GhastlyGhoulManDec 6, 201516 votes

{quoted}

When thinking about this from an in-game thematics perspective, it makes less sense that Poppy's ult would be blocked by Wind Wall, I agree. However, taking a purely thematic approach to things would pretty quickly lead us to making exceptions to things or accepting really odd gameplay, as per the Tormented Soil example above.

Specifically to your question regarding ults vs non ults and their relationship to defensive abilities, that's not usually a distinction we make, though that isn't to say we couldn't. However, to me that begs questions like "Should Sivir's Spellshield block Annie's Tibbers or Veigar's Primordial Burst?"

Yasuo's ult tends to follow a simple rule of "if there is a hostile non-unit object flying through the wall, it is destroyed." As a player, I think some of the best elements of Wind Wall are that I can pretty predictably know how it's going to act with spells, though I do understand the thematic disconnect.

You heard it here first folks, Yasuo's windwall is on the level of an ult.

... Okay, I realize that was most likely a slip of the tongue (finger?), but his windwall IS kinda ridiculous. Lasts way too long for what it does and for the type of champ using it (a fighter/assassin).

RiotRiotRepertoirDec 6, 20155 votes

You heard it here first folks, Yasuo's windwall is on the level of an ult.

Good catch. My bad. I'll edit it above.

CherysseDec 6, 201510 votes

Do not edit, stop giving excuses and listen to the community, nerf the wind wall and then you can buff other things about Yas like his E, have you even seen my thread about Wind Wall Should Break?

Here it is: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qcpZgHuh-yasuos-windwall-should-break

Rat TroupeDec 6, 201518 votes

I think you've gotten caught up in this issue of thematics. If you're telling yourself Yasuo windwall is ok because you can't be constrained by thematic issues, you're missing the point.

The problem with Yasuo windwall isn't that it violates some thematic issue. Players don't care that much about thematics -- as you note above, nobody cares that Tormented Soil affects floating champions. The problem with Windwall is that it violates player expectations.

Nobody expects Winwall to behave as it does. The first time you see a Windwall delete a Nami ult, it's shocking and surprising and unexpected. The only way a player would expect that sort of interaction would be if he's seen it before, or if he somehow is aware of this rule about travelling abilities.

That rule may be simple, seen from a coding or design perspective, but it's not at all obvious, and it shouldn't be used as a reason for designing an ability like that.

RiotRiotRepertoirDec 6, 20156 votes

and unexpected

I know this won't be the popular opinion here, but I don't think I agree with the unexpected part here. I think if I was playing Yasuo having never played against Nami before and that wave was coming at me, my instinct would be to put Wind Wall between that wave and me.

Phoenix Kotori Dec 6, 201520 votes

I would expect it to block the part of the wave that connected with the wall, not delete the entire wave from a tiny bit touching it.

Dominick DestineDec 6, 201536 votes

{quoted}

Tormented Soil damaging floating enemies doesn't make sense either

Given the animation which shows bubbling popping up from the ground... and it being damage over time... it could be easily surmised that the soil is releasing toxins that damage the target.

Bad example.

Hex VeilerDec 6, 20157 votes

It's kinda like how Rek'Sai's tremor sense still detects Malz and Kass, regardless of the fact that neither of them ever touch the ground.

11 Herb N SpicesDec 6, 20155 votes

Dont do that...dont open that can of worms because then people are going to wonder why Trist cant jump over a GROUNDED trap from Jinx/Cait.

Which is bull by the way....

SettDownShutUpDec 5, 201521 votes

I'm honestly under the opinion that NO ultimate should be stopped by a windwall. I mean, it's your god damn ULTIMATE! It's just frustrating and unsatisfying.

Daedalus871Dec 5, 201520 votes

Should no ultimate be able to be stopped by spell shields then?

NahDogSolRahnDec 5, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Should no ultimate be able to be stopped by spell shields then?

No, because the spell shield is designed to block the effect of an incoming spell, nagate it completely on YOUR champion, no one else's. I'm fine with fiora's repost because it acts like a slightly slower siver spellshield, Yasuo's windwall is just weird and should have some of the requirements they put on braum's shield on it.(Blocking in one direction only, only destroying the first projectile) if instead of destroying everything that hit it, it reduced the damage after the first projectile that would be okay, it gives more opertunity for counter play besides having to move around the entire thing, which is really hard to do if its happening in a team fight.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 5, 20154 votes

Wait. It... it doesn't... block in one direction only!? What the actual....

Axis the DragonDec 5, 201529 votes

Nope, it blocks both from behind and the sides

A single pixel of Nami's ult grazing the bottom-left-most pixel of Wind Wall will cancel Tidal Wave entirely

NechroniaDec 6, 20157 votes

Don't you know that if wind is moving in the same direction as a wave that the wave stops instantly? That's why sailors are in literally no danger whatsoever if they get caught in a storm.