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At this point I'd be fine with Shaco's Q getting removed completely

L Psy Kongroo··47 votes·3,440 views

Because I realize that's probably the only way he can go back to being an assassin without attracting the ire of every moron in this game.

Look, I get it, people don't like invisibility. People don't like getting mind-gamed and cheesed for 30 minutes. But god damn it, I started playing Shaco because I like him as an assassin. Not some fucking random brusier/tank shit. And that's his ONLY viable build path right now. Full AD, full AP, and hybrid Shaco has been knocked so far down that it's tantamount to trolling if you play him that way now.

Shaco used to have an identity, one I really appreciated for its uniqueness and depth. But now he's worse than Rengar, who also happens to be an assassin reworked into a bruiser/tank. After all was said and done, Riot took this "rework" as an opportunity to completely remove the Shaco I used to love from the game.

But I guess it's fine, because Shaco never was very popular. And when he WOULD get brought up, all people did was bitch about his Q being overloaded bullshit. So fine. Gut his Q. Remove it completely for all I care. Just give Shaco is assassination capabilities back.

His current Q does no damage whatsoever; it's purely utility. His W gets destroyed in 1 auto-attack after 15 minutes, and that's AFTER taking 2 seconds to ready itself. His E has pitifully low base damage, and both scalings have been gutted by at least 20%. His ult damage was drastically reduced; both its base explosion damage and its attack damage to buildings, meaning you can't even split push with him anymore.

Shaco is basically the Malzahar of the assassin rework. He was changed so drastically that he became a all-around powerhouse, and Riot was forced to nerf him into the ground. Now, like Malz, he's relegated to a role that he was never supposed to be in in the first place.

It's time Riot takes responsibility for its failures. Something needs to be done with Shaco, because it's almost impossible to play him right now.

47 Comments

EndlessSorcerer23 votes

They are too busy creating more failures to bother fixing existing ones.

Sejuani Maokai Zac

SlowChemical2 votes

Huh? Sej is the only one I can see people questioning, what's wrong with the Maokai/Zac changes? They look good to me.

I agree with OP though, Shaco does feel underwhelming right now.

Legacy Hydralpha8 votes

People don't like the Maokai bug (in which his W moves too slowly) and were angry about that because Riot hadn't announced that it was a bug until recently. And people seem to be against Zac's new ult and Q for varying reasons (DPS, jungle clear, etc.)

Dr Poro3 votes

I just find Riot's reasoning with Zac odd. They say they changed it because he doesn't do much after going in and using his spells. But his current ult actually gives him something to do while waiting for his other CDs.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Because they were boring spells that gave him too much reliable damage and were just spammed off CD without thought.

TheSingularity1 votes

ZAC WON'T BOUNCE ENOUGH! And his Q may as well be deleted when he's taking solo camps in the jungle and apparently it is rarely utilised even in bot lane ganks due to how much of a "chore" it seems to be

SociopathFriend1 votes

Same reasons really- generous amounts of, "This particular feature doesn't match what I think it should be."

jr deputy meow1 votes

current zac is just fine. the changes are mind boggling to me - zac is a recent champ who has had no issues as far as i could tell. I always enjoy playing the current zac - he's incredibly fun - and i just don't get why they're touching him

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Because getting bursted by a tank with next to no skillshots in their kit is incredibly annoying. The only real skillshot Zac has is his E which you cannot feasibly ward against at any stage of the game. All Zac does is E in and roll his face on his keyboard while walking in circles (E+R mid game does A LOT of damage considering you can also get 2+ W's in there aswell all of which being impossible to miss if you connect the E).

jr deputy meow1 votes

are you a moron? let's break this down

  1. the vast majority of champions have only 4 abilities, meaning they can have at most 4 skillshots
  2. two of zac's abilities are skillshots. Additionally, only his auto attacks are point and click. that means 50% of his abilities are skillshots
  3. one of those skillshots, elastic slingshot, is one of the most telegraphed abilities in the game - it's even a charge-up.
  4. that skillshot also happens to be central to zac's kit, meaning that in practice he's actually a skillshot-reliant champion

Zed also only has one skillshot. Are you going to tell me he's not skillshot reliant? What about morgana? only one skillshot Wow, holy shit! blitzcrank only has ONE SKILLSHOT HE MUST NOT BE VERY SKILLSHOT RELIANT

the thing is that you just described a huge chunk of the game's champions. You can walk on zac's blobs. you can ward against him (yes you can). You can ward his jungle and figure out where he's going. You can dodge his E. You can dodge his Q. You get just as many chances with Zac's current kit to foil the gank as you do with most other junglers. I don't see the problem.

Finally, if you think zac does too much damage for building tanky, what about gragas? what about hecarim? Shyvana? Most of the bruisers in the game?

finally:

aren't they not even touching zac's E? it's his other abilities they're changing

DarkfireAM1 votes

LeeSin: Return to your home and raise more of your future failures.

420 grams9 votes

The problem is the stealth rework that they had that removed all counter play from invisibility. If three was a way to counter his q, it'd be fine, but whatever happens he can just press q and is safe.

Aniohn2 votes

man item 3340 item 3341 if item 3340 item 3341 only item 3340 item 3341 there item 3340 item 3341 was item 3340 item 3341 something item 3340 item 3341 that item 3340 item 3341 could item 3340 item 3341 be item 3340 item 3341 done item 3340 item 3341 against item 3340 item 3341 shaco item 3340 item 3341. Get vision, use the red trinket. youre part of the problem thats ruining him because you sit and whine and cry about it and riot nerfs the fuck out of it instead of learning how to play against it.

poustray3 votes

Red trinket doesn't reveal shaco, it only reveals his position. So basically either you got aoe to use on him, or he's safe

420 grams1 votes

{quoted}

man item 3340 item 3341 if item 3340 item 3341 only item 3340 item 3341 there item 3340 item 3341 was item 3340 item 3341 something item 3340 item 3341 that item 3340 item 3341 could item 3340 item 3341 be item 3340 item 3341 done item 3340 item 3341 against item 3340 item 3341 shaco item 3340 item 3341. Get vision, use the red trinket. youre part of the problem thats ruining him because you sit and whine and cry about it and riot nerfs the fuck out of it instead of learning how to play against it.

Those don't reveal invisible enemies. The closest is the red one where you can see an outline of them, but his q cooldown is shorter than 120 seconds

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Invisibility isn't revealed by anything but towers.

Quort1 votes

I personally don't see what's wrong with him having such strong invisibility. Its weakness has always been that the cooldown was long enough that he could only use it to get into or out of a fight.

Previously, once a squishy Shaco was in a fight, he had to rely on his wits to outplay his opponents using carefully placed Jack-in-the-Boxes and the clone from his Hallucinate.

There's also nothing inherently bad about him having a clean escape should he just be caught out. After all, he is an Assassin and the class as a whole is intended to be quite slippery. It is also still possible for a crafty player to predict his escape route and kill him anyway.

The problem is that today's brusier type builds allow him to survive long enough to use his invisibility multiple times in a confrontation and makes his mistakes more forgiving.

The stealth rework was a good thing in my opinion. Items that revealed stealth just cut a huge amount of power from stealth reliant Champions with no real drawbacks.

48983507DEL13 votes

I stand firmly with the idea that Stealth is balanced around the fact that you can place strategic wards before the champions are able to use their invisibility.

Unfortunately, not every elo is smart enough to do this, including the elo I'm in.

420 grams1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prom Queen Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yV2aBEiF,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-04-21T18:04:56.180+0000)

I stand firmly with the idea that Stealth is balanced around the fact that you can place strategic wards before the champions are able to use their invisibility.

Unfortunately, not every elo is smart enough to do this, including the elo I'm in.

It's the engage that's the problem, it's the free escape. Sure in a lane you know they're most likely running to a turret. But in the jungle they can wall hop, dash the opposite way they were originally running, stand still, etc. It's like teemos where it's broke when they move or like camo that can be detected when close. They flat can go anywhere and if you're not level 9, you can only place a sweeper on a small area. If you used it within the past 2 minutes, you have no way to follow them. It'd be different if it was just invisibility, but it's a blink forward and invisibility.

Melledoneus6 votes

RIP Shaclone

Enjoy your permaban, asshole.

I Am Ravi1 votes

XD wow

Divewing5 votes

People wouldnt care as much if we had access to enough wards that we could have a semblance of protection. all the invis/long-range gankers simply require different ward placement, but the pissy little trinket lasts barely half its fucking recharge, and you cant buy wards anymore, so you have such limited information that makes it borderline impossible for mid and/or top to take proactive measures, and bot is completely gate behind when the support gets SS (if at all).

Quort2 votes

This I agree with. I don't think invisibility is inherently bad, but when you can't see enemy Champions on top of having a very limited ability to track their map movements, then it REALLY feels like you can't do anything to stop them. Stealth should let a character be creative in their gank routes and bypass obvious ward placement to surprise opponents, not just guarantee easy ganks. The issue really is that deep warding enemy jungle camps and commonly traveled areas is much more difficult and much less effective.

KoKoboto4 votes

Meh, being able to stealth and run away doesn't win you games.

GiornoˇGiovanna3 votes

{quoted}

Meh, being able to stealth and run away doesn't win you games.

Yea, how the fuck can I win a game with only "tricks" and "running away" xD ? When actually there is no one on my team that can bust adc or mage, because assassin Shaco has so little damage.

r4ndomkill1 votes

splitpushing, running away or duelng are the highest requirements for it.

GiornoˇGiovanna3 votes

I love assassin Shaco. *loved? I used to main squishy-glass cannon AD Shaco, and after nerf it's so useless. I'm very angry when every other assassin have damage, and AD Shaco doesn't. He is worse than Rengar. I play him now full AP jungle JUST BECAUSE this build actually gives some damage: Runic Echoes passive, Gunblade Active and Lich Bane sheen proc, allows me to burst a squishy if I'm ahead, but then I see Kha'Zix with 5/10 doing with one Q 1k dmg when I can't even get to 800 with being ahead, that's just sad. Or Bruiser Lee Sin with 2 damage items has more burst than full AP Shaco. Crit Shaco is totaly unplayable, even with crit dmg runes. Any other meta tank is better than tank Shaco atm, so why even pick him???? I play him only because HE IS my League of Legends, and I won't leave him when he's weak. I'm very upset seeing my "no-damage" every single game. And I don't feel rewarded for maining difficult champion for years, because 10th time Lee Sin will do more than 4k games Shaco, only if he isnt a stupid player.

Quort2 votes

I loved Shaco. I played him a lot. Then they reworked him and I've hardly touched him since. Not a whole lot has changed... but he just feels entirely different. :(

Ivern and Irelia2 votes

this

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

i wonder if his Q being an MS boost instead of a blink would make him healthier?

either way, you can't remove shaco Q like that shaco's identity is someone who fools poeple, you can see that clearly with Q/W/R

Tyto Mors1 votes

the new red trinket makes it so that when it comes in range to affect the box, it will instantly pop, taking away any chance of it fearing someone(and unless your pure ap, its not going to hurt much). most people while playing shaco make it super obvious to see which one is the clone(but this one is less of a point since people who put a lot of time in the champ will make it way less obvious), and q has quite the cd now if you dont hit anyone after using it, and with it doing literally no dmg, why would they unless they could 100% guarantee a kill. and the current passive is just shit.

the ms sounds horrible for the reason you said "someone who fools people". but when you dont do any dmg and the only thing you can rely on for dmg is a shitty little dagger that does no dmg unless they are low, then it leaves shaco with nothing to do but build tanky to atleast soak up dmg or just to survive long enough to deal enough dmg yourself. off tank/bruiser shaco with a titanic hydra seems better for quickly killing a target than full ap or ad shaco.

russianshaco1 votes

There are high elo players that build assassin, see chinese jester and beautiful korean. Bruiser shaco is really, really strong atm, but assassin shaco is also playable.

Shaco's boxes are really strong. There is very little counterplay to them and although they are not always reliable, they can be very effective.

Aldapsayar7 votes

Beautiful Korean doesn't play at all for about a month. CJ plays Elise now. Assassin Shaco is gone

WarHero541 votes

Super Easy counterplay to shaco boxes: Don't chase a low health shaco hes baiting you into boxes. Second being either Bruiser or tank in general. if you are late game as shaco full ap, boxes mean nothing because, against a tank or Bruiser with health, it will only tickle them and boxes are main source of ap damage. (also nothing procs to shaco boxes not even on first hit no thunderlords, no spell item procs nothing. So we have only 2 sources of damage to even proc Liandrys and Morellonomicon = no counterplay against tanks)

TotalJerk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yV2aBEiF,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-20T19:38:06.276+0000)

His current Q does no damage whatsoever; it's purely utility.

I just wanna point out Riot tends to have a reason for putting combat bonuses on unconditional mobility. They want using mobility to start fights to be better than using it to escape them. Taking away the damage on Q goes against that concept and gives Shaco less incentive to not play like a bitch or not treat his Q like a get-out-of-jail-free card that he sits on.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

the problem with shaco isn't even killing people at this point. hes the best split pusher in this game with his Q mid late game. you can't answer him. he Qs over a lane a seecond and starts pushing a different lane. takes towers very quickly with his clone.

ÈvilMorty1 votes

Only thing I dont like about shaco is his invisibility, how warding all the bushes is basically useless and if i go slightly out of tower range he will be right there stabbing me in the back, no counter play, no reaction time thats my only problem.

Quort2 votes

The counterplay is supposed to be track his map movements and realize when you need to play safely. The issue isn't the invisibility but the fact that the lack of purchasable wards and the short duration of trinket wards means that actually determining when he is in the area is much harder. Also, unless fed, Shaco is pretty weak. He can only kill people when teaming up with someone else or finishing off a weakened opponent.

Nilok1 votes

The problem is that Riot messed up and the bureaucracy of Riot hasn't had anything prepared to go through their committees. If anything happens, expect it to be around the fall or next year.

Aniohn1 votes

The entire reason that shaco is irrelevant now is because RiotFearless is stuck in silver 2 and shaco is op in that elo because people dont know what item 3341 this is or how to ward differently and look for signs of a gank.

If you've spent any time at all playing shaco you know exactly what one is going to do and how he's going to do it. So instead of complaining about how op the invisibility is they need to become better players and learn how to play against it and not just complaining about it until riot nerfs it.

poustray1 votes

Increase Shaco's Q's cooldown and have half of it refunded if one of his next 2 autos crit. That way, tank shaco won't benefit from it (unless they build high crit which doesn't bring any tankyness as all items granting crit give no defense except item 3046 's passive)

Hello I am Bird1 votes

rip AP shaco

48983507DEL11 votes

Yea Rengar's role is completely different from what he used to be as well. What's worse is that his new kit is so difficult to balance that they'd rather him be unplayable than admit they're wrong.

I honestly hate Shaco as a champion, and I know 75% of League's playerbase feels the same about Rengar, but Riot really fucked them over.

Karfuss1 votes

And it, once again, stems from Riot's arrogance and ignorance. They refuse to admit their mistakes, let alone fix them.

Shaco isn't going to be reworked again. They'll be adamant that their rework is perfectly fine (due to their terrible, unfit for purpose internal testing) and turn Shaco into another Rengar failure that everyone will forget.

KoggyStyle1 votes

i got no prob with shaco i do have a problem with rengar ult q , he outranges gnar mega w so hes already jumping in as the w is coming down and hes stuned half inch away as gnar dies.

biased yes, but it ruined a perfectly fine gnar game.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

Patch 7.9 Notes "Shaco Has been Overperforming for quite a while now. Hes showing dominance in the jungle and is not giving more passive junglers a chance to be relative through the game. So we will have to cut some power from Shaco. "

Q- Deceive.

Now Slows Shaco by 20% and Bleeds him for 20% of his max health. it also shows a trail of blood for enemies to see

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