"Mages should run out of mana if they cast constantly in long fights"

L Psy Kongroo·Apr 18, 2018·140 votes·20,014 views

But ADCs can constantly right click you for 200 damage/second with no drawbacks at all.

156 Comments

KivolanApr 18, 2018103 votes

200 damage a second? Are we talking 10 minutes into the game?

Because most ADCs are doing 1k+ per second by 30 minutes.

AirKingNeoApr 18, 201852 votes

Games go to 30 minutes?

SelecApr 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

200 damage a second? Are we talking 10 minutes into the game?

Because most ADCs are doing 1k+ per second by 30 minutes.

Prove it.

TerozuApr 18, 20182 votes

Use the practice tool.

It Hertz When IPApr 18, 201825 votes

AS-focused ADCs like Varus, Vayne, Trist, etc. are near-guaranteed to hit 2.00 AS by the 30m mark unless they're really behind. I'll use Varus for this, since I have the best experience with him; we'll ignore his Blight on-hit and pretend he forgot how to use abilities, and say he's level 18.
Say 80% crit from . Toss in as his lifesteal item.
AD will be 150 from items, 104 from base, for a total of 254 AD.
So 80% of his attacks will crit for 635 damage (we'll ignore armor too for now). That's an average of 558.8 damage per shot. Multiply by 2 for the 2.00 AS, that's 1117.6 damage per second.

That's ignoring damage from abilities, runes, and passives, but also ignoring damage resistance from armor. Obviously the situation's going to change based on who's getting shot, but as it looks, the number's not THAT far from the mark.

Votable JesterApr 18, 201820 votes

Also doesn't take Stattic Shyv proc into account.

It Hertz When IPApr 18, 201810 votes

True, I always forget about that.

Magic SerwynApr 18, 20181 votes

Also divide by three since you're hitting a tank with 200 armor. Even against most other targets you can divide by two, and I don't even count Tabis, randuin, frozen hearth, thornmail... Against a tank it's probably closer to divide by 4 or 4.5 most of the time

Votable JesterApr 18, 20189 votes

1: item 3035 2: item 3504 3: Mages do even less to tanks. 4: ADCs have abilities that amplify that damage ( Ashe Q, Caitlyn PWE, Draven Q, Jinx PQ, Kaisa PQE, Kalista WE, Lucian P, MissFortune QW, Quinn P, Tristana QE, Twitch PQER, Varus PW, Vayne QWR, Xayah WE)

SephAgroApr 18, 20184 votes

haha where did that adc main in denial go?

BodabottApr 18, 201850 votes

Not to mention item 3508

Zone of EndlessApr 18, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention

That's their plan. Making mages by the sickle and turning them into ADC.

The Great DuckApr 18, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention

Niche item among a few ADCs.

SpongebobIsLifeApr 18, 201818 votes

not even sure I'd consider it niche at this point.

Jhin Lucian Kaisa MissFortune Xayah Sivir Ashe crit Varus and the occasional Draven. Pretty sure that's more than half of the adcs.

SalronApr 18, 20183 votes

Lucian is garbage MF is garbage with a crit build Varus NEVER builds ER Neither does Draven

These are the champions that build ER: Ashe Jhin Kaisa Lucian Sivir Xayah

6/17 botlane ADCs

TerozuApr 18, 20181 votes

Sivir doesnt build Essence Reaver she has Spell shield for that.

DisembarkApr 18, 201817 votes

She rushes ER lol.

Anyways, most ER adcs suck - the only reason Xayah is good is because her E actually has crit scaling.

Every ER adc only becomes meta when they can jump ship onto a new 1st item (i.e. ghostblade, bork, rageblade).

HäxelApr 18, 20182 votes

i would say out of these champions only Sivir and Xayah build er every game cause they need the mana and cdr.

Yes, all your other mentioned champiosn (and kog'maw) can build er good too but they also ahve other builds and depending on the meta they either not build er or build it. We have: item 3071 and/or lethalaty or normal item 3031 2* item 3086 Build on MissFortune Lucian Ashe Draven Jhin (Draven also hasBuilds focused on early lifesteal). And normal Crit builds, onhit builds or ap builds on Kaisa KogMaw Varus (on varus lethalaty works aswell) .

The Bearded BardApr 18, 201833 votes

200 dps? What adc you playing against lol they doing 600 at least

SB ArneemanApr 18, 201828 votes

Mages already rely on skillshots more than any other group of champions. Why do they also need to be the most careful managing their attacks/resources?

Dasdi96Apr 18, 201821 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxaKoH7r,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:05:07.003+0000)

But ADCs can constantly right click you for 1000 damage/second with no drawbacks at all.

ftfy

TerozuApr 18, 20182 votes

Omfg ftfy means fixed that for you i just fucking realised that >.<

XxDRAGONsAK47xXApr 18, 201815 votes

200??? I wish they did 200.

I usually die in 3 auto attacks by 25 minutes. Cause I usually have around 2300-2600 HP on Anivia, Ahri, and A Sol. Soooo... Yeah

LacerationApr 18, 201814 votes

adc's are meant to be the safe reliant damage you can count on. Problem with adc right now is just that they are not only reliable but also the best damage wise.

anyway save these posts for after the adc rework that's coming up. we should see some big nerfs to botlane's power

Tik115Apr 18, 20183 votes

They are also too well protected now,

Back in the day all an ADC had to protect themselves was a Bloodthirster, QSS and a GA with maybe a tank holding locket/Runic Bulwark

Now ADCs have a Keystone giving them movement speed and heals 2 damage reduction items, 1 with a build path almost exactly like other Zeal items meaning it isn't much of a sacrifice to swap over item 3046 and one which equals the BT in power item 3812 Their old protection items buffed up item 3072 (use to be the ADC ROA now provides a large shield with lasts an age out of combat) item 3026 (Use to only provide defensive stats forcing the ADC to sacrifice damage for safety, now gives a chunk of AD) item 3139 (Use to give meh damage and no life steal, now gives good damage, gives lifesteal AND the cleanse gives a large MS increase Protection from allies raised to absurd levels due to items and champion design item 3109 item 3107 Rakan TahmKench

All that combined even a fed assassin is gonna struggle even the ones which wern't changed to delayed burst.

If this 2nd Marksmen rework needs to change anything beyond their overall power their vulnerability needs addressing too.

Spacesuit SpiffApr 18, 201813 votes

On paper its justifiable because mages can apply damage in AoE, burst harder, and have a higher functional range via moving around while throwing skillshots.

Unfortunately, none of that particularly matters these days because of mobility creep, shields galore, and adc burst per second. A mage who can blow up an adc in a single combo still has to be scared of them because the adc can just crit them twice during the mage's spell animations.

Watch streamers play syndra; every time they get killed 1v1 by an adc or run away from the 1v1 despite having ult up, take a drink.

YuGiHoApr 18, 20185 votes

its like they dont actually play the game.

The Great DuckApr 18, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxaKoH7r,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:05:07.003+0000)

But ADCs can constantly right click you for 200 damage/second with no drawbacks at all.

Lmao no drawbacks? I wish. What elo are you playing at dude? They're lucky to get a few auto attacks on anyone before they're targeted/gutted/zoned by the enemy juggernauts/assassins/tanks. Use your head and flank them, focus them, and time your cc better and they're not so hard to deal with, at least in solo q.

Consider most of their AA ranges are at like 550 units, which is well in reach by the vast majority of champions. If you want to nerf anything, look to shield champs like Janna or Lulu

5050BSApr 18, 201810 votes

AD can CS

Most Mages need to cast spells to CS

iTaLenTZApr 18, 20188 votes

lol at 200 damage/second. I wish it was then we wouldn't have a problem. Its more like 2000 damage/second which is 3-4 auto attacks.

SweedishGunnerApr 18, 20186 votes

Early game mages should be mana gated yes. Late game mages shouldn't really have to worry that much unless you're Kassadin.

SwiftKitten88Apr 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Early game mages should be mana gated yes. Late game mages shouldn't really have to worry that much unless you're Kassadin.

WHAT late game?

GigglesOApr 18, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LxaKoH7r,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:05:07.003+0000)

But ADCs can constantly right click you for 200 damage/second with no drawbacks at all.

Just give back thornmail, and make it return 25% damage. Teach the adc's not to right click tanks.

PePsiLemoNNApr 18, 20185 votes

The real cringe is always in the comments

LauchmelderApr 18, 20185 votes

I'm fine with that AND I hope they really nerf CDR on items while giving mages more AP.

T4underboltApr 18, 20183 votes

I don't know when you remember that beautiful times when mages had higher cooldowns but spells were more impactful so it wasn't a spam fiesta. The only mages with lower cooldowns were xerath,ziggs etc. but still they had higher cds than they have now. I really miss that time. Time where it took skill to play champions not brainless spam (and this applies to many other classes not just some mages).

Jeanne fan clubApr 18, 20184 votes

200 damage a second? man, you must be lucky never getting crit.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 18, 20183 votes

Stop b*tch like little girls. They already say

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.

They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.

We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.

Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

T4underboltApr 18, 20189 votes

Meanwhile 0 changes to zeal items that are the most problematic and need to cost more. Great job. I wonder though why so late when they could do most of these changes long ago. But I guess Meddler has to carry himself back to plat first.

chipndip1Apr 18, 20185 votes

COST CHANGES TO THINGS LIKE PHANTOM DANCER

deadlychuckApr 19, 20183 votes

How "long" of fights are we talking? Most fight only last for 1-2 CD rotations.

Frankly the only thing that mana means is forcing you to recall during the laning phase.

JustaNewbApr 18, 20182 votes

Ehhhh mages and mana. Run out? One assumes as a mage gets more powerful, so does their ability to retain the ability to cast more and more spells.

Some mages just need to be made less blatantly spammable. Ryze Ziggs etc, and that's a cooldown issue.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 18, 20182 votes

Yes, but that's assuming they're casting the same level of spells.

The spells get undeniably stronger as the game goes on. Meaning they're expending the same amount of effort.

So, in order for them to stick with not running out of mana, their spells would have to stay the same power.

RyzeTheSmurfMageApr 18, 20182 votes

Ryze is supposed to be a little burst plus DPS tbh. But he gets another rework with W not costing mana so nvm that.

koshkyraApr 18, 20182 votes

What the fuck, 200 DPS?

Are we high?

no to toxicApr 18, 20182 votes

Corki mid will be meta again with this change.

FakeGravityApr 18, 20182 votes

i would be happy if mages where "i only have one shot to make this right but if i hit you you should die" instead of "opps i miss well let me just wait a moment and redo that so you do die next time" (looking at you release zoe)

unfortunately riot is going the other way with "well i can either clear the wave or fight the enemy team before i go to base but i cant do both"

ShahamutApr 19, 20182 votes

Lol. I wish it was only 200 dps. XD

HäxelApr 18, 20181 votes

As expected, whataboutism reached this topic toaly. Why people can't see that just cause other clases are also problematic doens't mean one cass has the right to be problematic as well? Like 8.10 and farther adc work is expected but we jsut forget this and see just the balancing of another powercrept class and than whine about over powercrept classes.

Scary DoorApr 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

As expected, whataboutism reached this topic toaly. Why people can't see that just cause other clases are also problematic doens't mean one cass has the right to be problematic as well? Like 8.10 and farther adc work is expected but we jsut forget this and see just the balancing of another powercrept class and than whine about over powercrept classes.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, however the "what about" argument applies when one scenario will drastically impact another; in this case a nerf to mages means a default buff to other classes, particularly adcs that do not really rely on mana. Furthermore, since both classes are in the same game it is a completely valid argument to ask "what about adcs that can simply right click without running out of their 'resource'".

Mages are not a problem in League of Legends right now. A mage is not picked in every single game, but an ADC is chosen virtually every game by both teams---sometimes more than one per team. This should express a fundamental problem with the game when the most dominant class for the last 8 seasons has been relatively untouched, while others receive constant tweaks/nerfs/changes, etc.

If I said "sure, you'll nerf mages but what about Blue Essence", well, that would be a bad argument, but when one thing directly impacts another, it's valid.