How much DPS can a tank take in a Patchwork Fight?

Mira Arya Enthe··37 votes·4,874 views

First to clarify, a Patchwork Fight for those who don't know gaming terminology is a straight up DPS battle with no interruptions.

The answer is, pretty long, actually. Assuming both have equal items. Tank items are cheaper so that is quite likely, plus ADCs are typically behind in exp by .5-1.5 levels. Here I am just going to post some demonstrations of the most typical ADC vs one of the most typical tanks in LoL.

Ashe's build This is going with a Crit damage build for maximum final DPS with LDR for armor shred and bonus damage, BotRK for HP shredding tanks, Ruunans because it is standard on Ashe(PD would have boosted DPS slightly due to AS but not by a noticeable amount), IE because it gives more DPS than Ashe's ER, GA because it now gives AD and is pretty standard and of course Beserkers for AS. Standard ADC Runes and Masteries taking Fervor for Maximum DPS instead of the lifesteal mastery.

Nautilus build Nautilus build was designed to be what I would typically take as Nautilus, as a Nautilus player. Randuins is the A+ standard anti-ADC tool, Sunfire is a very typical Nautilus item, most people buy Tabi if playing a tank, pure armor items end there with two MR items for realism nobody builds pure armor. SV though if mages had been favored in this match an adaptive helm probably would have been picked, Abyssal seems like a solid Nautilus item with it's rework, it doesn't help vs Ashe but it is realistic. The new Stoneplate gives armor but vs Ashe's DPS it isn't much because this is not a team fight, in a team fight the armor and MR doubles as does the added HP threshold so this actually goes in Ashe's favor as does Legendary Guardian due to there only being one enemy. Runes have flat armor instead of scaling to give no special late game advantages. Masteries are typical tank build.

Test fights Totally unrealistic. Nautilus just stands there, he doesn't activate defenses except once near the end, he doesn't CC Ashe, which means he never gets CotC which is HUGE. But why? Because all we wanted out of this is to see how long a standard tank like Nautilus, can face tank a standard ADC like Ashe, nothing more.

#Special notes! This is straight up build vs build. But Nautilus gets no use out of Courage of the Colossus which is a massive opportunity for survivability intentionally lost. CC also lowers DPS, Ashe was never touched, in a real fight Ashe would experience Crowd Control AND would need to kite, stutter stepping reduces effective DPS. This fight, is largely slanted against Nautilus, this is intentional. My friend playing Naut also indicated in two of our fights she could have activated his W a second time if she had started it immediately instead of near the end, intentionally we only wanted ONE shield per fight to optimize the experience of a pure face tanking test.

Why give Ashe so many advantages? Mostly because of BC, while he would have all the advantages of fighting back, Courage of the Colossus, CC, team, etc in a real game. Somebody on Ashe's team might have a BC, meaning he might lose a portion of his armor over the fight. So we gave him no chance to fight back just to demonstrate pure survivability the best we could. I plan to later do another test that includes him fighting back but also includes additional players. But for now this is all I wanted.

Also, Ashe is not every ADC. There are ADCs who will do better Vayne KogMaw or worse Jhin vs a tank. But she is your typical every noob can player her ADC who is viable in all tiers and always fairly popular regardless of meta. She also has her own advantages over people like Kog who are specifically tank busters.

#With Stoneplate activation https://vid.me/B1We Please forgive my friends timing with using the item, they neither play Nautilus or knew what the item did fully at the time. But eh, that only does Ashe more favors.

This is late game, when ADCs rule the game.

#Without Stoneplate activation https://vid.me/qHSL Same fight as above but the Stoneplate was not activated.

Stoneplate favors team fights We still built it, giving Ashe another advantage. The item only gets full effects around multiple enemies. But just to show a more pure armor build...

#Thornmail instead of Stoneplate https://vid.me/Tulu This is just to show an alternative scenario where Nautilus decided to go with a more armor based build.

#Just some midway fights https://vid.me/DoGI https://vid.me/dFTU These two do not pretend to be anything accurate. Just some fights we did out of boredom while farming up gold in a custom. But they do offer somewhat a glimpse into an early game crit build Ashe vs a Nautilus building armor.

#Why this post? Purely informative. I see way to many posts saying an ADC solo killed a tank in 1-3 seconds. As my main champions are Shyvana, Sejauni, Riven, Nautilus, Pantheon, Zac, Leona and Soraka. I take a lot of offense to this. Because even when playing Soraka I only die in 1-2 seconds if we are talking about a fed Draven vs a squishy healer. But if we are talking on somebody like Shyvana, Nautilus, Sej, Zac or Leona. I usually can expect a good 6-12 seconds of survivability unless their ADC is drastically more fed. The exceptions were BC stacking meta years ago and the brief period at the start of S7 with the Lethality and pen fiasco.

If you die in 3 seconds on a tank like Nautilus, Sej or Zac and were not drastically behind. You were killed by multiple people, which is fine, if 3-5 people focus you - you SHOULD die in 3 seconds even on a tank. For some perspective a fed Riven or Kat take 1-3 seconds to burst a squishy(depending on target and build). A tank is not dying that fast and exaggerations are not appreciated by reasonable people.

While again, some ADCs do it better, have a team to back them up and the scenario in these clips are not every scenario.

Some Tanks do it better, have a team to back them up, actually fight back and get use of their CotC and will get more use from certain items and masteries in team fights.

Do some tanks need help/buffs/design changes? Absolutely! Is damage creep real and frustrating at times? 100%! Are you regularly dying in 3 seconds to only the enemy ADC as a fed, full armor Rammus? No. Stop lying.

#I hope this post brought some perspective Though it is fully possible a bunch of circlejerkers will blindly downvote it out of visibility the moment they realize it is talking about tanks not dying too fast.

Either way, the somewhat good intentions - Mira Arya Enthe.

71 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

Good lord. I don't know where you find the time to make posts like these, but thank you all the same.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

took that ashe alone only 10 seconds to kill one of THE tankiest tanks in the game. with ninja tabi and through a stoneplate activation.

and ashe isnt even a hyperscaling adc like Vayne Twitch KogMaw Jinx she can dish out decent damage, but the entire point of ashe is that shes a utility adc who contributes with constant cc, and hence has part of her power budget in utility instead of straight damage.

now imagine it was one of them with a single other dude at their side. like a support who additionally buffs the adc damage output. that nautilus isnt going to tank 2 people for 5 seconds... now imagine its a 5on5 teamfight with multiple people focusing him.

now imagine someone who isnt nautilus against one of those. its a bit ridiculous.

so yea, if youre not cherry picking the most durable tank in the game vs. an adc with good but just above mediocre damage output lategame, then youll probably find a full build adc killing a full 6 defensive item tank, or a fighter in 5 seconds or less.

i dare you to repeat this experiment with a full build twitch or kog maw or vayne and someome like Amumu as a target dummy.

PB4UAME6 votes

Not to mention, in the videos, if you take away all the fluff time, Ashe is killing Naut in just over 6 seconds by herself, with GA as an item. Were that a zeal upgrade instead, Ashe would probably kill the non-stoneplate Naut in 5 seconds.

Add any incidental damage and AoE from teamfights, plus buffs from Ashe's allies, and yeah you'd see a tank drop in 1-2 seconds if they were focused by any more than 3 people.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

15 seconds with the stoneplate activated at terrible timing. Also Nautilus tankiness comes from his shield and his CC. Since he didn't use his CC OR CotC you can see the raw stat checking of his items when the shield is down. People like Poppy, Leona, Rammus, Malphite, Zac and Amumu can build just as tanky and also some have better tanking steroid. You yourself are cherry picking. Amumu has such a bad tanking steroid Riot nearly called him a mage for a while.

All Jinx gets over Ashe in a raw DPS race is a lityle AS. "You built GA" just as most ADCs will. I also gave Nautilus two MR items and an item that was shitty for the test scenario(stoneplate) point? They were realistic builds. If we wanted to kill Nautilus unrealistically fast I just would have used full on hit Kog'maw.

"She'd have a support and other damage sources" so would he? Tanks aren't suppose to 1v5. If all 5 enemies focus him, as I said in the OP, he should die in 3 seconds. But his team will have already won as her team wasted everything on a tank.

In uncordinated play tanks last forever because people don't know how and when to focus them. In cordinated LCS play they last forever because people know how to cordinate around their CC and tankiness like the Naut who tanked 30 something tower shots in LCS.

The only true tank busters with an explicit advantage over tanks are Kog and Vayne. I hate Vayne so I am not talking about her. As for Kog his -1% playrate most of the time is because busting tanks fast isn't worth being the most immobile, vulnerable and least self sufficient ADC in the game.

Popular right now is Lucian, could have used him if I knew how to play him. But he is worse at pure DPS from safety than Ashe. Could have used Varus but he doesn't kill tanks as well as Ashe with her Q steroid. I used Ashe because she is a benchmark ADC. She kills tanks better than Jhin, but worse than Vayne. While being consistently the most used ADC over the years. Quite an intentional choice.

Do I think Vayne's power to kill tanks is BS? Yes. But I hate Vayne period. Do I think Kog's is? Fuck no he is an immobile, underplay, vulnerable, no burst, only DPS machine gun. It is literally his only quality.

As for Twitch I would call him a team buster because of his BS ult. His true damage is a tiny portion of his damage and not especially deadly to tanks. I find him bullshit in general but he doesn't kill me on my tanks and faster than Ashe or Lucian. He just blows up too many people at once out of stealth in team fights.

Outside of Vayne and Kog we have Jinx, who gets a slight AS advantage over Ashe that is it. Unless she gets a kill and procs her passive but that is meant to be a snowbally kill streak machine.

Not sure how Ashe is particularly bad at killing tanks. In a DPS race she loses slightly to Jinx certainly to Kog but cuts even with most and beats a few others.

And as for Nautilus I live longer on Poppy, Leona or Rammus personally due to bonus resistances being so huge. But sure keep ignoring that CotC wasn't even included in this. Nor the full effect of stoneplate, nor legendary Guardian. Ignore that Ashe's GA giving 40 AD vs 70 on another option for realism doesn't match that if I wanted to cherry pick I could have not bought 2.5 MR items and heck, made one of those the 300hp Scepter even a Warmogs would have been worth more to Ashe. Ignore that Nautilus tanking steroid is his Shield and immense CC and claim baseline he is the tankiest tank. Claim that Ashe who hss a very strong DPS steroid and that her passive technically grants more damage in long fights than if she just crits otherwise due to how the math works out.

Because it's easier to say "Let's put the highest DPS underused champion in the game vs the worst tanking steroid on any tank." Heck, might as well have a full damage Yi kill an AP Amumu and call it proof of your averahe scenario. Or we could do the opposite and put a Jhin vs a full armor Rammus and call it proof tanks literally never die. Screw realistic builds, logic and matchups.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yUxYHqH5,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-05-06T00:37:58.743+0000)

took that ashe alone only 10 seconds to kill one of THE tankiest tanks in the game. with ninja tabi and through a stoneplate activation.

and ashe isnt even a hyperscaling adc like Vayne Twitch KogMaw Jinx she can dish out decent damage, but the entire point of ashe is that shes a utility adc who contributes with constant cc, and hence has part of her power budget in utility instead of straight damage.

now imagine it was one of them with a single other dude at their side. like a support who additionally buffs the adc damage output. that nautilus isnt going to tank 2 people for 5 seconds... now imagine its a 5on5 teamfight with multiple people focusing him.

now imagine someone who isnt nautilus against one of those. its a bit ridiculous.

so yea, if youre not cherry picking the most durable tank in the game vs. an adc with good but just above mediocre damage output lategame, then youll probably find a full build adc killing a full 6 defensive item tank, or a fighter in 5 seconds or less.

i dare you to repeat this experiment with a full build twitch or kog maw or vayne and someome like Amumu as a target dummy.

Ashe has one of the highest DPSes in the game late game among her class my man.

Luxychan4 votes

I can see where you're coming from, but you also have to remember. Different tanks will effect this situation differently. Compare a Naut to a Rammus, the damage output on Ashe changes slightly. New Sej? Even more. Not even just Ashe, but the entire enemy teams damage output changes. Anyone who says they die in 3 seconds needs to look at level difference, item difference and what abilities they have maxed if before 16.

Keira Helsh3 votes

I don't get this perception about tanks dying super fast. Whenever I play Poppy I feel invincible.

Luxychan3 votes

When I play Poppy... oh wait, no I don't. xD

Princess Emma3 votes

The same amount a wood chuck could chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood

Arkilusal3 votes

have an upvote.

Gramm3 votes

Patchwerk, as in similar to the WoW fight against the boss named Patchwerk

Venomar4 votes

It's not similar that's literally where the term was coined from.

Clementine3 votes

I appreciate the fuck out of this

AirKingNeo3 votes

Best post on the boards I have seen.

Also show this with Sej and Maokai to show how broken they are.

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

Good luck with Maokai, he is useless without using autoattacks & getting hit by spells. Terrible example tbh.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Make him auto someone while testing this.

Ralanr1 votes

Yes because that's how he gets to stay tanky. His on hit sustain since he lost other tank steroids

Spoofghoul2 votes

i see more adc's complaining about tanks killing them then the other way around maybe do a vid on that just to see how long that takes since there are a fair amount of complaints from ADC yelling but he oneshot me, id like to see nautilus oneshot ashe now if thats ok

Also for most tanks the 1v1 isn't the issue as much as the dying 2 seconds in a teamfight is

Thats where stoneplate and cotc help a little, they are good items for that, though the lack of hp options saddens me

That being said i have always been of the opinion that ADC powercurve as it is isn't healthy

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

The Nautilus here could kill me in one rotation at level 6 with a sunfire. That isn't a bad thing in my opinion as an ADC should keep out of a tank's threat range. But tanks kill ADCs fairly easy until they buy sufficient lifesteal or a mid game MR/Armor option. At which point ADCs outscale tanks and tanks become team utility and soak instead of kill threat.

Ralanr1 votes

Which is the main point that everyone seems to forget.

fuffychan1 votes

While I appreciate this, it would be useful to also see the Nautilus fight back, to show everyone how a tank with no damage items can solo an ADC and win.

Mira Arya Enthe23 votes

We tried that. Nautilus won easily up until 3 items, then he barely won, at 4 items he lost in a straight up fight. But then Ashe won in a 1v1 with neither having a gold advantage. ADCs will certainly win late game, but late game tanks are front line and CC.

fuffychan2 votes

Just as expected. Ive been on a crusade for buffing ADCs and nerfing tanks for years, but couldnt lay out my evidence and reasoning as eloquently as you did. Would be nice to see those videos here.

Ralanr7 votes

She basically said that ADCs do their job at the appropriate time and are vulnerable until then. As intentionally designed.

Mira Arya Enthe29 votes

Except that is how powercurves are suppose to work. ADCs are strong late game but tanks are strong mid/early game. ADC also shouldn't let a tank 1v1 them.

fuffychan2 votes

The power curve has been skewed so hard as it takes ADCs too many items to do any significant damage, and many games end before even 3 items are finished.

Mira Arya Enthe17 votes

Not really. ADCs can rush items like BotRK to speed up their powerspike at expense of slowing their final crit build if they are worried about 1v1ing tanks. But you shouldn't be 1v1ing tanks early game anyway.

Sahn Uzal11 votes

Glad to see some objective statements on the boards. I respect that.

Ralanr5 votes

Mira is one of the good ones after all.

Even if I don't agree with Mira, I can always expect a good discussion.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

I wouldn't say totally objective. My only ADC is Ashe so I don't entirely like most ADCs. For example I cannot stand Lucian, Caitlyn, Jhin or Vayne's gameplay even if I like three of those characters.

My main champions are: Shyvana Sejuani Riven Ashe Malzahar Leona Zac Amumu Vi Soraka Lux Sona Karma Blitzcrank Morgana Pantheon Bard Nautilus

You will notice very little ADC or Assassin in this lineup. So I try to be extra careful not to sound bias against them.

50000000000000001 votes

That's such a diverse lineup. Do you mostly play support/jungle?

ForeverLaxx1 votes

Diverse? Maybe in this era of "I only play one lane since Riot finally released enough champions to keep me from being banned out of it."

Then again, I own the entire roster and play them all, so maybe my idea of "diverse" is skewed.

Papa Andrei1 votes

I own all and have played all(besides Udyr) but my comfort picks look like that

50000000000000001 votes

I meant in terms of playstyle and niche. There's a mix of frontline and backline, strong laner and strong teamfighter, physical damage and magic damage, burst and DPS, etc.

Penns1 votes

U did go for a broken tank shred build tho, normal adcs (if those still exist xd) probably wouldnt win until 5-6 items. But adcs are pretty broken atm anyway so.. fk them lol

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

? He didn't even go all-in on the tank busting though. Ashe is 100% viable with Black Cleaver (full stack it on 3 people with Q+Hurricane in one auto) and it wasn't even purchased here.

Ralanr13 votes

Because a tank should just have no options to fight an ADC at all when alone?

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Here I agree with you. And Nautilus thankfully does win until Ashe gets 4 items. Then she wins but by that time the game is in team fighting phase.

Ralanr4 votes

Which personally I am fine with. I dislike late game adc power, but I accept it as that's their area of power. As long as I get to have mine as a tank, I'm happy.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Mine as a Shyvana is all game, totally not just mid game, ALL game! OvO

fuffychan2 votes

ADCs have no options to fight assassins at all when alone. Which is fair.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I do on Ashe but it might just be bad assassins in all my games shrug

Champion Skin2 votes

Well the ADC could probably win 1v1 against the tank if they built to win 1v1 against the tank... some ADC's could build item 3022 and just do like Gnar and kite the tank to death... item 3156 or some MR would probably a help a lot

Though of course such a build while possibly better 1v1 it is worse DPS and ADC's usually focus on getting as much damage as possible which allows them do deal absurd amounts of damage assuming they are protected and are able to survive

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Besides, tanks are suppose to win early game. ADC shouldn't be 1v1 face tanking a tank. Which I don't think some people understand, wasn't the point of my post.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

While I appreciate this, it would be useful to also see the Nautilus fight back, to show everyone how a tank with no damage items can solo an ADC and win.

A tank with no damage items in the late game will be curbstomped by an ADC, generally speaking.

The only tanks off the top of my head with any real dueling potential on an ADC late game are Rammus and Malphite, two big dueling outliers in tanks. By comparison, Vayne easily shits on even them late game.

OMGSoAnnoying1 votes

Another one I can think of is Hecarim. He tanks a lot later, but also can do a lot of damage and is hard to kite.

Malicious Metal3 votes

He isn't a tank though. Hecarim is a diver.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

To be fair with how tanky and cc like he can get, I don't entirely blame people for forgetting that. Constantly.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

considering ashe has one of the lowest dps of all carries. this was lol to watch. wonder how long it takes caitlyn to kill tanks by herself.

Annoxis2 votes

I am not too sure about Ashe being one of the ADC with the lowest DPS. She still has one of the best AA-steroïd of the game, and her passive virtually doesn't lower her overall dps, it just flattens it.

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